Non-Christian documents about the existence of Jesus Christ

[Robittybob1]

OK, so it's authentic. There were three dead blokes in one family with those names.

So what?

 

Did you consider that, perhaps ten minutes, rather than 3, with Google might address the issues you raised?

 

OK, so the guy's work pre-dates Google, but it's not a lot of effort for an experienced forger hoping to make something like 100,000 or a million pounds.

 

EDIT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_alphabet

What would you write on Jesus of Nazareth's ossuary? For the ultimate prize!

 

"Jesus Christ - This ossuary is brand new. Never been used"

Spoken like a true believer. ....

Thanks - I've never been called that before. Usually they call me a heretic.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Robittybob1

[Acme]

 

Spoken like a true believer.

Thanks - I've never been called that before. Usually they call me a heretic.

 

I didn't call you anything; I made a comparison. Again, it is a non-sequitar to discuss Jesus and pretend to not be discussing Christianity and so the thread is rather pointless insofar as any conclusion is to be expected. Seeing this thread popping to the top day after day I read it to see what is the fuss and couldn't help commenting on some sloppy reasoning herein. My bad.

[Robittybob1]

I didn't call you anything; I made a comparison. Again, it is a non-sequitar to discuss Jesus and pretend to not be discussing Christianity and so the thread is rather pointless insofar as any conclusion is to be expected. Seeing this thread popping to the top day after day I read it to see what is the fuss and couldn't help commenting on some sloppy reasoning herein. My bad.

"Acme is OK" remember, so don't feel bad. If you didn't call me a "true believer" but just made a comparison, that's fine.

I tend to disagree with your premise, for there could have been recorded in some annal a real negative comment about Jesus.

e.g. .... "and Herod Antipas decreed if anyone is found to be harboring Jesus of Nazareth they will be put to death."

Obvious that would not be a Christian document but it mentions Jesus of Nazareth.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Robittybob1

[Acme]

"Acme is OK" remember, so don't feel bad. If you didn't call me a "true believer" but just made a comparison, that's fine.

I tend to disagree with your premise, for there could have been recorded in some annal a real negative comment about Jesus.

e.g. .... "and Herod Antipas decreed if anyone is found to be harboring Jesus of Nazareth they will be put to death."

Obvious that would not be a Christian document but it mentions Jesus of Nazareth.

I don't feel bad at all. As to your example, even if there were such a mention it would be of no particular historical note other than as it pertains to Christianity. The thread seems to me but a fishing expedition with the implication that ancient mentions of Jesus have a logical bearing on establishing his stature as a supernatural being. People are gullible now and were gullible then and will believe as they do regardless of facts and reasoning contrary to their belief. Joseph Campbell wrote well on the history of myth and peoples' need for it and I can only hope he was wrong that such a need is a permanent fixture of the human condition.

[Robittybob1]

I don't feel bad at all. As to your example, even if there were such a mention it would be of no particular historical note other than as it pertains to Christianity. The thread seems to me but a fishing expedition with the implication that ancient mentions of Jesus have a logical bearing on establishing his stature as a supernatural being. People are gullible now and were gullible then and will believe as they do regardless of facts and reasoning contrary to their belief. Joseph Campbell wrote well on the history of myth and peoples' need for it and I can only hope he was wrong that such a need is a permanent fixture of the human condition.

I must admit I had forgotten how the thread started, so I rechecked it, and find the OP has not come back on to discuss.

To me the post which defined the thread was http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/86514-non-christian-documents-about-the-existence-of-jesus-christ/#entry837342 so it became a challenge to find a reference that was much closer to the time of Jesus not a century or two later.

I could be an addict to myth. I'll look up Joseph Campbell on YT and see if there is any discussion there. (PS it is there thanks. What a complex being of mythological knowledge!)

Edited November 22, 2014 by Robittybob1

[Ophiolite]

Joseph Campbell wrote well on the history of myth and peoples' need for it and I can only hope he was wrong that such a need is a permanent fixture of the human condition.

Is our need for myth in any substantial way different from our pleasure in enjoying fiction? I should be surprised if they draw upon different areas of the brain.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Ophiolite

[Acme]

I must admit I had forgotten how the thread started, so I rechecked it, and find the OP has not come back on to discuss.

To me the post which defined the thread was http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/86514-non-christian-documents-about-the-existence-of-jesus-christ/#entry837342 so it became a challenge to find a reference that was much closer to the time of Jesus not a century or two later.

I could be an addict to myth. I'll look up Joseph Campbell on YT and see if there is any discussion there. (PS it is there thanks. What a complex being of mythological knowledge!)

It's pretty hard to stay on topic when the premise is flawed. Ay, Joe was a peach.

Is our need for myth in any substantial way different from our pleasure in enjoying fiction? I should be surprised if they draw upon different areas of the brain.

According to Campbell it is substantially different, yes. I'm not sure what sort of brain imaging or experiment might show a distinction but it's an interesting prospect.

Edit: I drew up a short summary from the Wiki page on Joe.

Joseph Campbell

Functions of myth

●The Metaphysical Function

Awakening a sense of awe before the mystery of being

●The Cosmological Function

Explaining the shape of the universe

●The Sociological Function

Validate and support the existing social order

●The Pedagogical Function

Guide the individual through the stages of life

Edited November 22, 2014 by Acme

[Robittybob1]

It's pretty hard to stay on topic when the premise is flawed. Ay, Joe was a peach.

According to Campbell it is substantially different, yes. I'm not sure what sort of brain imaging or experiment might show a distinction but it's an interesting prospect.

Edit: I drew up a short summary from the Wiki page on Joe.

Joseph Campbell

I wonder if Jesus combined the mythological history of the Jews completely and made the myth become a reality. Even the thought that mystics (Druids/Wisemen) from far off countries traveled to Jerusalem enquiring of Herod as to the birth of the new king, makes it mysterious how the myth transcended multiple cultures and religions and supposed associated with a astronomical event as well.

OK I understand none of you believe any of that, but they didn't rush off to Egypt for nothing. The whole event changed world history, and yet it wasn't recorded in non-Christian literature.

 

Even though in 1999 I did find an non-Christian reference to an astronomical event which seemed to parallel the "Star of Bethlehem", yet in subsequent internet searches I have been unable to find it, but I recall the document was "Roman" and called "Celestial Torch ???" something like that.

 

Here is a hint "P. J. BICKNELL, The Celestial Torch of 17 B. C., (123-128)." http://pages.stolaf.edu/ancienthistorybulletin/table-of-contents/

 

In my history study I had pinpointed Jesus' birthdate to 17 BC so it seemed to correspond. I actually read the text so whether it was in book form I can't recall.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Robittybob1

[John Cuthber]

What would you write on Jesus of Nazareth's ossuary? For the ultimate prize!

 

"Jesus Christ - This ossuary is brand new. Never been used"

 

Good point, why would a man who didn't die have an ossuary?

[Eise]

"He had at least one brother, James the Just, same father but by a different mother."

 

I don't think you find a document that fits the 4 criteria I mentioned that proof that point. If obviously already fails the criterion of dissimilarity (number 3).

 

The ossuary is authentic till proven otherwise.

 

The authenticity is disputed, until proven otherwise.

[Ten oz]

I wonder if Jesus combined the mythological history of the Jews completely and made the myth become a reality. Even the thought that mystics (Druids/Wisemen) from far off countries traveled to Jerusalem enquiring of Herod as to the birth of the new king, makes it mysterious how the myth transcended multiple cultures and religions and supposed associated with a astronomical event as well.

OK I understand none of you believe any of that, but they didn't rush off to Egypt for nothing. The whole event changed world history, and yet it wasn't recorded in non-Christian literature.

 

Even though in 1999 I did find an non-Christian reference to an astronomical event which seemed to parallel the "Star of Bethlehem", yet in subsequent internet searches I have been unable to find it, but I recall the document was "Roman" and called "Celestial Torch ???" something like that.

 

Here is a hint "P. J. BICKNELL, The Celestial Torch of 17 B. C., (123-128)." http://pages.stolaf.edu/ancienthistorybulletin/table-of-contents/

In my history study I had pinpointed Jesus' birthdate to 17 BC so it seemed to correspond. I actually read the text so whether it was in book form I can't recall.

Edgar Cayce and Nostradamus also mentioned astronomical events and the movement of various groups of people. It doesn't mean they were just making it up.

 

I was born and raised in a Christian country. My parents are Christian, all the grade school teachers I had were Christian, sports team coaches were Christian, and etc. Christian history feels real. It is the history I was raised with. It feels like Jesus was most likely a real person. That feeling is not based in any tangible facts though. I heard it my whole life from a hundred different people so now it feels true. Looking at the information without any rooted presumption of truth until proven otherwise I do not see anything affirmative. I think that for believers there is enough to believe in but for known believers there isn't enough to convince. Where a person already is in their personal beliefs plays a huge role in how the history is interpreted.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Ten oz

[Eise]

Accepting that Moses was raised in Egypt and instructed by the high priests, then there is evidence of a tradition/teaching/influence of resurrecting gods and per se people in Judaism.

 

There is a very long time between the time when Moses was supposed to live and when Jesus lived. If you can give some reference to Jewish documents around the time Jesus lived that prove that one still believed in resurrecting gods, please bring the proof. Otherwise I stick to Ehrman who, as historian, states that there was no such belief in those days of Judaism. Also in your argument you make yourself dependent on the idea that Moses existed, and has lived in Egypt. Given that no historian thinks that there is any hint that Moses really existed, your argument is not very strong.

 

The rest of your 'magician' argument is as poor as the previous. You just give a possible explanation why there might be miracle stories about Jesus. But you refer to no evidence at all. Where Judaist priests performing stage magic? ASFAIK they interpreted Moses' laws, led the temple with its rituals and offerings, etc etc.

 

I think you did not read many previous postings of me. I do not believe in a divine or miracle Jesus. But I think Jesus existed, and was, without his intention, founder of Christianity. But we know nearly nothing about him: that he was born in Nazareth, met John the Baptist, was an apocalyptic preacher, had a brother James, and was crucified under Pilate.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Eise

[Acme]

 

Accepting that Moses was raised in Egypt and instructed by the high priests, then there is evidence of a tradition/teaching/influence of resurrecting gods and per se people in Judaism.

There is a very long time between the time when Moses was supposed to live and when Jesus lived. If you can give some reference to Jewish documents around the time Jesus lived that prove that one still believed in resurrecting gods, please bring the proof.

 

The Moses story is in the Torah so whether true or not the information/story was extant around the time of Jesus.

 

Otherwise I stick to Ehrman who, as historian, states that there was no such belief in those days of Judaism.

If they didn't believe the Moses story, why would they retain it?

 

Also in your argument you make yourself dependent on the idea that Moses existed, and has lived in Egypt. Given that no historian thinks that there is any hint that Moses really existed, your argument is not very strong.

I concede that I prefaced my argument on accepting Moses was real, but as I just laid out it is only necessary that the story was real and that Jesus had access to that story.

 

The rest of your 'magician' argument is as poor as the previous. You just give a possible explanation why there might be miracle stories about Jesus. But you refer to no evidence at all.

Since there is no evidence Jesus did perform miracles my explanation for the stories of miracles is as good as the believers' explanations.

 

Where Judaist priests performing stage magic? ASFAIK they interpreted Moses' laws, led the temple with its rituals and offerings, etc etc.

The high[est] priests would keep the secrets of trickery to themselves. It's not reasonable to expect they would be bragging or otherwise making public such secrets.

 

I think you did not read many previous postings of me. I do not believe in a divine or miracle Jesus. But I think Jesus existed, and was, without his intention, founder of Christianity. But we know nearly nothing about him: that he was born in Nazareth, met John the Baptist, was an apocalyptic preacher, had a brother James, and was crucified under Pilate.

No, I have read your postings. Since as you say there is no evidence one way or the other, my explanation is as believable as yours.

 

I wonder if Jesus combined the mythological history of the Jews completely and made the myth become a reality.

That's my proposition, yes.

 

Even the thought that mystics (Druids/Wisemen) from far off countries traveled to Jerusalem enquiring of Herod as to the birth of the new king, makes it mysterious how the myth transcended multiple cultures and religions and supposed associated with a astronomical event as well.

Myths are as myths do.

 

OK I understand none of you believe any of that, but they didn't rush off to Egypt for nothing. The whole event changed world history, and yet it wasn't recorded in non-Christian literature.

Who rushed off to Egypt? It is not necessarily events that changed history, it is the myth.

 

Even though in 1999 I did find an non-Christian reference to an astronomical event which seemed to parallel the "Star of Bethlehem", yet in subsequent internet searches I have been unable to find it, but I recall the document was "Roman" and called "Celestial Torch ???" something like that.

 

Here is a hint "P. J. BICKNELL, The Celestial Torch of 17 B. C., (123-128)." http://pages.stolaf.edu/ancienthistorybulletin/table-of-contents/

I've read a number of explanations over the years for the Bethlehem star, but it's just icing on the cake in regards to the main thrust of the Jesus myth.

 

 

In my history study I had pinpointed Jesus' birthdate to 17 BC so it seemed to correspond. I actually read the text so whether it was in book form I can't recall.

AS I say, such exactitude is anecdotal at best, i.e. icing, and does not support or decry the myth as a whole. Edited November 22, 2014 by Acme

[Robittybob1]

Good point, why would a man who didn't die have an ossuary?

 

But he did die. It is only after being dead for about a year that they begin to use the ossuary. You wouldn't fit in the ossuary straight away. I'd like to see a picture of how an ossuary was packed for it would need to have a certain volume to take the dismembered skeleton.

 

 

So having his ossuary ready was a back-up if the myth didn't work, for it was the ultimate party trick/street magic to cheat decomposition.

I sense Jesus wasn't 100% sure the whole thing was going to work out.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Robittybob1

[Acme]

But he did die. It is only after being dead for about a year that they begin to use the ossuary. You wouldn't fit in the ossuary straight away. I'd like to see a picture of how an ossuary was packed for it would need to have a certain volume to take the dismembered skeleton.

 

So having his ossuary ready was a back-up if the myth didn't work, for it was the ultimate party trick to cheat decomposition.

I sense Jesus wasn't 100% sure the whole thing was going to work out.

But we don't know that he died. Whether he really died and rose or faked his death and resurrection he wouldn't need an ossuary.

[Robittybob1]

But we don't know that he died. Whether he really died and rose or faked his death and resurrection he wouldn't need an ossuary.

Crucifixion is designed to kill you, and to make sure he was dead and not just faking it, they stuck a spear up into his side. Through the liver up into his heart and lungs. Where would the spear go? They aren't just for pricking the skin.

99.999999% of us would ultimately need an ossuary if it was any of us going to Golgotha that day. Bit like the people who have their ready made coffin as part of their home furnishings.

http://incrediblethings.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/coffin-couch.jpg

[Note: I'm setting the scene so you can make your fortune from the faked Jesus Ossuary that you are going to set up. You still need to find the Aramaic version of the text that you will chisel into the stone at some stage. You had better get it right!]

Edited November 22, 2014 by Robittybob1

[John Cuthber]

Crucifixion is designed to kill you slowly.

So it's conceivable that some people lived long enough to be assumed dead.

OK, so it's some soldiers job to stick a spear in but why would he bother to do anything but a half hearted job?

Perhaps someone even slipped him a few pieces of silver "because they didn't want anyone to disturb the body of the man they worshipped".

If I had been the soldier, I might have taken the money- why not? the guy's dead anyway.

So it's perfectly possible that they did just scratch the skin.

 

Unfortunately, I realise that faking that box is going to work roughly as well as selling a second hand parachute- only used once.

 

The whole point about Christ is that he didn't die so he's never need a coffin (nor, in due course, an ossuary).

[Robittybob1]

Crucifixion is designed to kill you slowly.

So it's conceivable that some people lived long enough to be assumed dead.

OK, so it's some soldiers job to stick a spear in but why would he bother to do anything but a half hearted job?

Perhaps someone even slipped him a few pieces of silver "because they didn't want anyone to disturb the body of the man they worshipped".

If I had been the soldier, I might have taken the money- why not? the guy's dead anyway.

So it's perfectly possible that they did just scratch the skin.

 

Unfortunately, I realise that faking that box is going to work roughly as well as selling a second hand parachute- only used once.

 

The whole point about Christ is that he didn't die so he's never need a coffin (nor, in due course, an ossuary).

A Roman soldier that is wimpy? One that is corruptible. They would be under the sentence of death for corruption and treachery.

That doesn't sound likely.

So how does he escape death, in reality now please? Are you Muslim? Do you think they slipped someone else in his place?

 

Why do you say he didn't die? So you seem to accept he was seen alive afterward, so is that why you say he didn't die?

[Acme]

Crucifixion is designed to kill you, and to make sure he was dead and not just faking it, they stuck a spear up into his side. Through the liver up into his heart and lungs. Where would the spear go? They aren't just for pricking the skin....

The crucifixion, spear & all, was stage magic designed to deceive the crowd. Retractable blade containing fake blood. As with most stage magic, confederates are part & parcel of the performance. Things are not as they appear, or are reported to appear whether you are sawing a lady in half or nailing a guy to a cross and poking his liver with a spear.

...So how does he escape death, in reality now please? Are you Muslim? Do you think they slipped someone else in his place?

 

Why do you say he didn't die? So you seem to accept he was seen alive afterward, so is that why you say he didn't die?

I realize this is addressed to John, but my answer is as I just gave. He didn't die because it was a trick and he only played dead. If you're not really dead it's pretty easy to be seen alive. Then leave town and head to India with your confederates to dupe a new set of rubes. One might further suppose Judas didn't hang himself, but either knew or got wind of the scam and either snitched or threatened to snitch and so was dispatched by confederates of Jesus.

 

PS A quick search of 'stage magic of antiquity' returned this result. The illustrated History of Magic

Follow the fascinating stories of the world's greatest necromancers, from sorcerer-priests in ancient Egypt to such modern miracle workers as Houdini and David Copperfield.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Acme

[Robittybob1]

The crucifixion, spear & all, was stage magic designed to deceive the crowd. Retractable blade containing fake blood. As with most stage magic, confederates are part & parcel of the performance. Things are not as they appear, or are reported to appear whether you are sawing a lady in half or nailing a guy to a cross and poking his liver with a spear.

 

I realize this is addressed to John, but my answer is as I just gave. He didn't die because it was a trick and he only played dead. If you're not really dead it's pretty easy to be seen alive. Then leave town and head to India with your confederates to dupe a new set of rubes. One might further suppose Judas didn't hang himself, but either knew or got wind of the scam and either snitched or threatened to snitch and so was dispatched by confederates of Jesus.

 

That made me laugh. Gosh at least you have an imaginative mind. The whole thing stage managed, with fake blood and retractable spears!

Did they use rubber nails or real iron?

[John Cuthber]

A Roman soldier that is wimpy? One that is corruptible. They would be under the sentence of death for corruption and treachery.

That doesn't sound likely.

So how does he escape death, in reality now please? Are you Muslim? Do you think they slipped someone else in his place?

 

Why do you say he didn't die? So you seem to accept he was seen alive afterward, so is that why you say he didn't die?

Not wimpy, or even corruptible.

Lazy would do.

As far as the soldier is concerned the guy is dying or dead. Why waste your effort sticking a spear in him?

Ok, he could get into trouble for not following orders, but who is going to report him? .

Christ?

His followers?

Nobody else is going to look at the corpse- seen one , seen them all.

Besides which, according to the account, he did stab him. I just wonder how deeply

Edited November 22, 2014 by John Cuthber

[Acme]

That made me laugh. Gosh at least you have an imaginative mind. The whole thing stage managed, with fake blood and retractable spears!

Did they use rubber nails or real iron?

Even today people volunteer to be nailed to crosses and they don't die. In The Philippines, Observers Perform Crucifixion Reenactment In Good Friday Ritual (PHOTOS)

 

Here's an article on Egyptian magic trick of decapitating an animal and restoring it whole. Dedi

 

My ideas aren't pulled out of a hat, but based on knowledge I have acquired over scores of years. Let those who have eyes, see.

PS Here's what looks like a pretty good source on the history of magic. Mind you none of the tricksters are copping to trickery as the trickery is the big secret.

Philosphy of Magic

.

Addendum: Earlier the magi were mentioned and it's worthwhile to point out the origin of the word in the context of my propositions. Magi is the plural of magus, which means magician.

magus

2. an astrologer, sorcerer, or magician of ancient times

 

[C14: from Latin, from Greek magos, from Old Persian magus magician]

PS Here's another reference on ancient magic; this one on the Greeks both pre- and post- Jesus' times. >>Greek Magic: Ancient, Medieval and Modern

.

Here's an interesting quote which invokes Jesus from the last reference.

...The text is part of a story preserved, in slightly different form, in a sixteenth century manuscript produced in southern Italy:

 

‘Migraine’ prayer against headache: Migraine came out of the sea, crying (?)and bellowing, and our lord Jesus Christ met it and said: ‘Where are you going, migraine and headache and eye-ache and inflammation-of-the-breath and tears and inflammation of the cornea and dizziness in the head?’ And headache answered our lord Jesus Christ: ‘We are going to sit on the head of the slave of God so-and-so’. And our lord Jesus Christ says to him: ‘See that you don’t go into my slave, but flee and go into the wild mountains and enter thehead of a bull, there to eat meat, there to drink blood, there to destroy eyes, thereto addle the head, to harm, to destroy. And if you disobey me, there I shall destroy you in the burning mountain, where dog bays not and cock crows not’. Thou who set the mountain in the sea, set migraine and pain to the head, the forehead, the eyebrows, the brain ofthe slave ofGod so-and-so.

...

With such bibliographical resources now at his [Alfons Barb] disposal, he produced an article that will remain a classicfor the study of Christian iconography, in which he shows, somewhat contra exspectationem, that the imagery of certain representations of the Virgin Mary can be traced back to that of the headache demon Antaura who rose from the sea. ...

Here's an ancient quote that seems apropos: Whatever deceives people seems to produce a magical enchantment. ~ Plato

Edited November 22, 2014 by Acme

[Acme]

.

Yay I say verily, there is more. I'm reading Greek Magic in its entirety and thought I'd pause to post some quotes supportive of my assertions that Jesus was a con man and stage magician. Non-Christian sources duly implicated in some fashion or manner such that I'm kinda sorta partly and/or nearly perfectly on topic. I love this stuff!

 

MAGIC IN BYZANTIUM

Marks account of the Woman afflicted with the Issue of Blood (Mark 5: 2534)shows Jesus working a miracle without even realizing it: the woman comes up behind Christ in a large crowd and, by simply touching his garment, is healed after twelve years of medical ordeal. Christ has said or done nothing to cure her. Unaware even of her presence, he realizes only that the power within him has suddenly left him, having apparently emanated outwards. After reading Gary Vikans chapter (10) we might understand that Jesus is functioning in this narrative exactly like the magic of medical amulets made of hematite which were meant to prevent or cure hemorrhaging: somebody makes purposeful contact with a supernaturally charged medium (Christs person or at least his clothes)and is instantly healed through its immanent power. This particular miracle, as Vikan remarks, comes as close to the essence of Graeco-Roman magic as any in the Bible. A pagan would probably have construed it as an act of magic except that here, as Mark is at pains to stress, it is the womans faith, and not only her brush with an object, that has cured her: Daughter, Christ announces, your faith has made you well. Given the range and various styles of his miracles, Christ would easily be reckoned by pagans as a magos and if one violently opposed his particular doctrines one might, like the philosopher Celsus in the late second century, classify him as a goês hated by the gods. If, moreover, Christ had promised to answer all petitions made in his name, could he not also be invoked in a magical operation? Vikan reminds us that the conflated Chriet/Crucifix often replaced the evil eye apotropaion on early Christian amulets in the Eastern Mediterranean.

...

The Early Church saw the distinction as straightforwardly theological and moral: magic, indeed the entire gamut of pagan religious practices (of which magic was in fact part), was reclassified as demonic (in the pejorative, Jewish sense), as the work, that is, of incorporeal beings (originally fallen angels) who served the Devil. According to early Christian writers, magic, even when not an illusion meant to impress and ensnare, always was the work of evil forces, miracles the work of a loving God. As Spyros Trojanos notes in Chapter 9, canon law followed suit in the late fourth century, when Gregory of Nyssa declared in his third canon that magicians acted in alliance with demons. ...

Note especially the phrase I bolded, which makes clear that stage magic was extant & known at an early time. Since -as I assert and current magicians will attest- stage magic secrets were not revealed or only reveled to the closest and most necessary of confederates, those who don't know how a trick is done must decry it by whatever means & terms they have at hand.

 

I note that the miracle of loaves and fishes is easily explained by a false bottom basket, the same as is used to pull a rabbit out of a hat.

...

Oh wait, I forgot this tidbit which is in reply to Eise challenging me to give evidence of Jewish magic in the time of Jesus the magus. On and about pg. 42.

Greek Magic: Ancient, Medievil and Modern

Chapter 6

HOCUS-POCUS IN GRAECO-ROMAN EGYPT

...

Why dont you go to the Jewish magician down on Ibis Street?I know when Claudia was pining over Serapion she went to him. Jewish magicians always have the most powerful kinds of magic, and he helped her. Look at her now! The magician will have all sorts of ways to get the apple of your eye into your arms, Im told. He can, for sure, mix up some-thing for you, maybe for both of you: a love charm for you, a love potion for him that you can slip into his food or drink on the sly.

...

FLAVIA: Drinking blood? Eating flesh? Thoeris, do be careful! Otherwise you might be (mis)taken for a Christian! They drink the blood and eat the flesh of their god, you know.

...

While the scenario sounds modern, it could have taken place in Egypt two thousand years ago, according to a Greek papyrus which was written during the reign of Augustus (30 bce14 ce) and extracted from a mummy found in Berlin in 1973. This papyrus is actually a whole handdook with instructions on how to conduct magical ceremonies.

...

Edited November 23, 2014 by Acme

[Robittybob1]

.

Yay I say verily, there is more. I'm reading Greek Magic in its entirety and thought I'd pause to post some quotes supportive of my assertions that Jesus was a con man and stage magician. Non-Christian sources duly implicated in some fashion or manner such that I'm kinda sorta partly and/or nearly perfectly on topic. I love this stuff! ......

 

I note that the miracle of loaves and fishes is easily explained by a false bottom basket, the same as is used to pull a rabbit out of a hat.

 

5000 rabbits from a false bottomed basket and then when you put the scraps back into the baskets it fills many more baskets!

That isn't the false bottomed basket trick. Fail, your magic fails.

 

 

Matthew 14:18 “Bring them here to me,” he said. 19 And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. 20 They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 21 The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.

[Acme]

5000 rabbits from a false bottomed basket and then when you put the scraps back into the baskets it fills many more baskets!

That isn't the false bottomed basket trick. Fail, your magic fails.

No, you fail stage magic 101. Such is the faith of the gullible.