Non-Christian documents about the existence of Jesus Christ

[Robittybob1]

No, you fail stage magic 101. Such is the faith of the gullible.

I'd say you have too much reliance on trickery. Me gullible? Don't think so.

If you think you can do that with a false bottom basket you'd better perfect it and get on TV

Come and see "The Famous Acme!" Roll up Roll up.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Robittybob1

[Acme]

I'd say you have too much reliance on trickery. Me gullible? Don't think so.

Either you understand how a false-bottom is used in stage magic or you do not. That you choose to either not learn of it or discount it as inapplicable to the loaves and fishes suggests to me your acceptance of Jesus as your lord outweighs any logical explications. Such an acceptance is the very ideal of gullibility and the daily bread of cons. Allow me to substantiate that.

 

gullible

gullible - A derivative of archaic gull, "dupe" or "simpleton."

gull

 

 

 

gull 2

n.

A person who is easily tricked or cheated; a dupe.

dupe

 

 

 

2. A person who functions as the tool of another person or power.

A fine ancient example of a variation of a false bottom trick that duped the brightest of the day is the Trojan horse, so in that regard you may consider yourself -in some backwards manner- in good company. Good luck with all that.

[Robittybob1]

Either you understand how a false-bottom is used in stage magic or you do not. That you choose to either not learn of it or discount it as inapplicable to the loaves and fishes suggests to me your acceptance of Jesus as your lord outweighs any logical explications. Such an acceptance is the very ideal of gullibility and the daily bread of cons. Allow me to substantiate that.

 

gullible

 

gull

 

 

 

 

dupe

 

 

 

 

A fine ancient example of a variation of a false bottom trick that duped the brightest of the day is the Trojan horse, so in that regard you may consider yourself -in some backwards manner- in good company. Good luck with all that.

Please don't make it too personal. For I haven't said HOW I thought the feeding the 5000 happens.

I'd like to see you feed 5000 men plus other women and children a total of 12,000 in all. have a go please show me my gullibility.

[Acme]

Please don't make it too personal. For I haven't said HOW I thought the feeding the 5000 happens.

You implied it.

I'd like to see you feed 5000 men plus other women and children a total of 12,000 in all. have a go please show me my gullibility.

The false bottom basket is set over a cavern with a narrow opening & which holds the food. Every time the magus reaches into the basket the bottom opens and a confederate in the cavern hands up some food. As the magus lifts the food out over the basket rim the bottom closes, he distributes the food to those nearby who see the apparently empty basket and then move away to either eat or pass on the food. Those nearby that can't see into the basket see a small basket from which oviously too much stuff keeps coming out of. A miracle! Rinse and repeat. Seriously, it is a simple trick with endless variations and limited only by the imagination & daring of the magus. Let's not forget the Bible tells us that not only was Jesus preaching at an early age (the patter of magicians), but also that he was a trained carpenter and so would have been quite capable of building the basket (the magicians prop).

 

Meantime, more confederates/disciples of the magus move through the crowd picking their pockets. see >>confidence trick

Edited November 23, 2014 by Acme

[Robittybob1]

You implied it.

The false bottom basket is set over a cavern with a narrow opening & which holds the food. Every time the magus reaches into the basket the bottom opens and a confederate in the cavern hands up some food. As the magus lifts the food out over the basket rim the bottom closes, he distributes the food to those nearby who see the apparently empty basket and then move away to either eat or pass on the food. Those nearby that can't see into the basket see a small basket from which oviously too much stuff keeps coming out of. A miracle! Rinse and repeat. Seriously, it is a simple trick with endless variations and limited only by the imagination & daring of the magus. Let's not forget the Bible tells us that not only was Jesus preaching at an early age (the patter of magicians), but also that he was a trained carpenter and so would have been quite capable of building the basket (the magicians prop).

 

A highly contrived trick could be set up as you say but it would have required massive preparation.

[Acme]

A highly contrived trick could be set up as you say but it would have required massive preparation.

So what? Jesus had his disciples and unlimited resources. They had people feeding them, housing them, giving them money, and spreading the word as they moved from town to town putting on their show. All that besides what they pick-pocketed. Do modern day cons undertake any less preparation for their scams? Itinerant preachers were a dime-a-dozen then as now. As I earlier said, I suspect Jesus was a child prodigy. He was to religious scamming as Mozart was to music. Edited November 23, 2014 by Acme

[Robittybob1]

So what? Jesus had his disciples and unlimited resources. They had people feeding them, housing them, giving them money, and spreading the word as they moved from town to town putting on their show. All that besides what they pick-pocketed. Do modern day cons undertake any less preparation for their scams? Itinerant preachers were a dime-a-dozen then as now. As I earlier said, I suspect Jesus was a child prodigy. He was to religious scamming as Mozart was to music.

That's all news to me. I think you need to come up with some proof of your wild and objectionable claims. I think you are all wind, no action.

[Acme]

That's all news to me. I think you need to come up with some proof of your wild and objectionable claims. I think you are all wind, no action.

You are relying on your heart rather than your head and no evidence I present can broach that chasm. As I said before, good luck with that.

[Robittybob1]

You are relying on your heart rather than your head and no evidence I present can broach that chasm. As I said before, good luck with that.

Show me some evidence, and we'll see.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Robittybob1

[Acme]

Show me some evidence, and we'll see.

I have and rather than attempt to contradict it you simply demand more. I can't help it if you don't understand what I am saying to you.

BibleGateway

Luke 2:39-52

Luke 2:39-52New International Version (NIV)

 

41 Every year Jesus parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover. 42 When he was twelve years old, they went up to the festival, according to the custom. 43 After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44 Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.

 

49 Why were you searching for me? he asked. Didnt you know I had to be in my Fathers house?[a] 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Matthew 4:19New International Version (NIV)

 

19 “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will send you out to fish for people.”

More evidence that Jesus was capable of criminality, disregard for authority, and murder while still a boy.

THOMAS'S GOSPEL of the INFANCY of JESUS CHRIST.

 

... ¶ Another time Jesus went forth into the street, and a boy running by, rushed upon his shoulder;

 

8 At which Jesus being angry, said to him, thou shalt go no farther.

 

9 And he instantly fell down dead:

 

10 Which when some persons saw, they said, Where was this boy born, that everything which he says presently cometh to pass?

 

11 Then the parents of the dead buy going to Joseph complained, saying, You are not fit to live with us, in our city, having such a boy as that:

 

12 Either teach him that he bless and not curse, or else depart hence with him, for he kills our children.

 

13 ¶ Then Joseph calling the boy Jesus by himself, instructed him saying, Why doest thou such things to injure the people so, that they hate us and prosecute us?

 

14 But Jesus replied, I know that what thou sayest is not of thyself, but for thy sake I will say nothing;

 

15 But they who have said these things to thee, shall suffer everlasting punishment.

 

16 And immediately they who had accused him became blind.

 

17 And all they who saw it were exceedingly afraid and confounded, and said concerning him, Whatsoever he saith, whether good or bad, immediately cometh to pass: and they were amazed.

 

18 And when they saw this action of Christ, Joseph arose, and plucked him by the ear, at which the boy was angry, and said to him, Be easy;

 

19 For if they seek for us, they shall not find us: thou hast done very imprudently.

 

20 Dost thou not know that I am thine? Trouble me no more.

[Robittybob1]

I have and rather than attempt to contradict it you simply demand more. I can't help it if you don't understand what I am saying to you.

BibleGateway

 

Matthew 4:19New International Version (NIV)

 

19 “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will send you out to fish for people.”

Well you don't explain that very well. OK he had spent some time in Egypt and passed through Jerusalem on his way down to Nazareth. Did he learn Egyptian magic, did he travel to the countries from whence the Magi came from. Did he learn their tricks of trade? Some say there are documents around India which they say support that he did. I have not seen any evidence of this though. Did the Jews have their own magic - Kabbalah? Is this what Jesus learned from his father and older half brothers.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Robittybob1

[Acme]

Well you don't explain that very well. OK he had spent some time in Egypt and passed through Jerusalem on his way down to Nazareth. Did he learn Egyptian magic, did he travel to the countries from whence the Magi came from. Did he learn their tricks of trade? Some say there are documents around India which they say support that he did. I have not seen any evidence of this though. Did the Jews have their own magic - Kabbalah? Is this what Jesus learned from his father and older half brothers.

No, you don't understand it very well. Jesus was learning from the priests, not his family. He snuck away to do it and got smart mouthed with the folks when they scolded him.

As to the Jewish magic you clearly have not understood the evidence I gave for that and as I say I can't help you there.

[Robittybob1]

No, you don't understand it very well. Jesus was learning from the priests, not his family. He snuck away to do it and got smart mouthed with the folks when they scolded him.

As to the Jewish magic you clearly have not understood the evidence I gave for that and as I say I can't help you there.

One of your so called evidences was a 200 page book. I haven't got the time to digest that in one day.

Jesus' answer to his parents after being missing for 3 days wasn't that great, I'd admit that. Still not evidence though is it.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Robittybob1

[Eise]

The Moses story is in the Torah so whether true or not the information/story was extant around the time of Jesus.

 

If they didn't believe the Moses story, why would they retain it?

I concede that I prefaced my argument on accepting Moses was real, but as I just laid out it is only necessary that the story was real and that Jesus had access to that story.

 

The question was if Jews in those days believed in resurrecting gods, not if they believed in Moses.

 

Since there is no evidence Jesus did perform miracles my explanation for the stories of miracles is as good as the believers' explanations.

 

The high[est] priests would keep the secrets of trickery to themselves. It's not reasonable to expect they would be bragging or otherwise making public such secrets.

 

No, I have read your postings. Since as you say there is no evidence one way or the other, my explanation is as believable as yours.

 

True, there is no evidence at all. But there is enough evidence that Jesus existed. (By explaining how Jesus got the name of a miracle man, you implicitly are saying that he existed.) And I think the simpler explanation for Jesus' miracles are his charisma, his gullible believers in those days (as in fundamentalist churches today), and exaggeration in hearsay stories after his death. But feel free to believe it was stage magic. I've heard there also people who think that the best explanation is that he was the son of God... Their 'proof' is as good as yours! (A 16^th century's manuscript?)

Edited November 23, 2014 by Eise

[Acme]

One of your so called evidences was a 200 page book. I haven't got the time to digest that in one day.

Fair enough. I'm retired and had the time and took the time. When I said I love this stuff I was referring to doing research. Your implication is that you will digest my reference so I'll patiently wait for you to do so.

 

 

Jesus' answer to his parents after being missing for 3 days wasn't that great, I'd admit that. Still not evidence though is it.

Yes of course it is evidence. The issue is figuring out what it is evidence for and it's as much evidence of a sneaky smart-mouthed truculent kid as it is for a loving supernatural being. On that point do you care to comment on the evidentiary character of the Thomas gospel? Granted you may have missed it because of the way the board software jams separate posts together, but do take the time to go back a couple posts and chew on it.

The question was if Jews in those days believed in resurrecting gods, not if they believed in Moses.

Some may have and some may have not. Moses certainly knew that the Egyptians believed in it and I suspect many people knew of the Egyptians' belief. I'll reread your earlier comments on the subject.

 

True, there is no evidence at all.

I only said that you claimed there was no evidence there.

 

But there is enough evidence that Jesus existed. (By explaining how Jesus got the name of a miracle man, you implicitly are saying that he existed.)

Good grief man! I explicitly said I thought he existed.

 

And I think the simpler explanation for Jesus' miracles are his charisma, his gullible believers in those days (as in fundamentalist churches today), and exaggeration in hearsay stories after his death.

None of which precludes trickery and all of which in fact trickery relies on.

 

But feel free to believe it was stage magic. I've heard there also people who think that the best explanation is that he was the son of God... Their 'proof' is as good as yours! (A 16^th century's manuscript?)

Thank you but I don't need your permission to think as I will. I'm not claiming proof of anything; I'm presenting a reasoned argument on the available evidence. 16^th century? What manuscript is that?

.

PS

The question was if Jews in those days believed in resurrecting gods, not if they believed in Moses.

...

30 seconds of searching returned this:

Jewish Resurrection of the Dead: When and how will the dead will be resurrected? The debate is old, but it has not been entirely resolved

...

There is no systematic treatment in the Rabbinic literature of the doctrine of the resurrection, any more than there is of any other theological topic. The ancient Rabbis were organic rather than systematic thinkers. Nevertheless, the picture which emerges from the numerous eschatological thoughts in this literature is of a three‑staged series of events.

 

The first of these is the state of the soul in heaven after the death of the body. The second stage is the Messianic age here on earth "at the end of days." The third stage is that of the resurrection of the dead. Unlike the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, the belief in the resurrection was nationalistic rather than individualistic. It was the hope of national revival that came to the fore and this embraced the resurrection.

 

After the restoration of the Jewish people to its homeland in the days of the Messiah, it was believed, the resurrection of the dead would take place.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Acme

[Eise]

Oh wait, I forgot this tidbit which is in reply to Eise challenging me to give evidence of Jewish magic in the time of Jesus the magus. On and about pg. 42.

Greek Magic: Ancient, Medievil and Modern

 

I asked for proof that priests (i.e. Sadducees and Pharisees) were doing stage magic, not that some Jewish fraud in Egypt claimed to do magic.

 

And the story is imagined by the author, as you correctly show. It is mainly about love potions, and some charm for getting rid of headache. Is pretty far of showing that Jesus was a stage magician. Hey, people have defended that Jesus was a hippie, or a socialist, a rebel, an anarchist, a yogi or guru, and so on. Do your best!

[Acme]

I asked for proof that priests (i.e. Sadducees and Pharisees) were doing stage magic, not that some Jewish fraud in Egypt claimed to do magic.

I think we have all agreed that there is no proof so your asking for it is illogical.

 

And the story is imagined by the author, as you correctly show. It is mainly about love potions, and some charm for getting rid of headache. Is pretty far of showing that Jesus was a stage magician.

It shows that all manner of magic was extant so Jesus would have known of it. The Exodus story of Moses matching his tricks with the Egyptian priests -such as turning the staffs to snakes and back- Jesus would certainly have known about. Collapsing wands are one of the oldest stage tricks and can be made by a child with a bit of paper and it's no stretch to imagine that's how both Moses and the Egyptians did it. Neither is it a stretch to think a bright lad could figure it out.

 

Hey, people have defended that Jesus was a hippie, or a socialist, a rebel, an anarchist, a yogi or guru, and so on. Do your best!

How gracious of you to grant me your endorsement.

[Eise]

Some may have and some may have not. Moses certainly knew that the Egyptians believed in it and I suspect many people knew of the Egyptians' belief. I'll reread your earlier comments on the subject.

 

So what? Show me where Jews believed in resurrecting gods.

 

30 seconds of searching returned this:

Jewish Resurrection of the Dead: When and how will the dead will be resurrected? The debate is old, but it has not been entirely resolved

 

Where is the resurrecting God? This is about the Kingdom of God. The claim of Carrier and et al is that Jesus was modeled after resurrecting gods or demi-gods, like Osiris. Your link as nothing to do with that. It has even less to do with the idea that God (or his son) would take the sins of all people (Jews?) by letting himself be crucified

 

I think we have all agreed that there is no proof so your asking for it is illogical.

 

So why argue for it? Let's stick to what the thread is about, and when we agree there we can let it be: the fact that Jesus existed.

Migraine’ prayer against headache

 

Thank you but I don't need your permission to think as I will. I'm not claiming proof of anything; I'm presenting a reasoned argument on the available evidence. 16^th century? What manuscript is that?

 

The one about "Migraine’ prayer against headache". Don't know what you are citing?

[Acme]

So what? Show me where Jews believed in resurrecting gods.

I don't see why the distinction is relevant. Did the Jews believe God or gods could die? Show me where they believe one way or another on that point and then maybe we can discuss a god's ressurection.

 

Where is the resurrecting God? This is about the Kingdom of God.

It's about the Jewish belief in resurrecting the dead.

 

The claim of Carrier and et al is that Jesus was modeled after resurrecting gods or demi-gods, like Osiris. Your link as nothing to do with that. It has even less to do with the idea that God (or his son) would take the sins of all people (Jews?) by letting himself be crucified.

That's immaterial to my argument. These ideas -in my view- were Jesus' ideas; his patter script as it were. He was the modeler and it is not that others modeled him. Comparing again to another child prodigy, Jesus' twist on things was no different than Mozart composing original music. People can and do interpret Jesus' words [as reported] and Mozart's music in different ways.

 

So why argue for it? Let's stick to what the thread is about, and when we agree there we can let it be: the fact that Jesus existed.

Again, we can not prove, i.e. establish as fact, Jesus' existence. We can only make reasoned arguments on the available data. As to the thread topic, it is as I earlier said a non-sequitar. I'll say whatever I please and if you think I'm off topic then report me.

 

The one about "Migraine prayer against headache". Don't know what you are citing?

Yes I know what I am citing; what I didn't know was exactly what you were referring to so I asked for clarification. The 16^th century quote I gave is but one article in the larger citation on magic. If you want to have the full context you need to know and read the source I cite, not just the small amount I am allowed to quote that I find of interest. You jumped on the 16^th century date and ignored the context. Let me quote again:

pg.44 ...While the scenario sounds modern, it could have taken place in Egypt two thousand years ago, according to a Greek papyrus which was written during the reign of Augustus (30 bce14 ce) and extracted from a mummy found in Berlin in 1973. This papyrus is actually a whole handbook with instructions on how to conduct magical ceremonies.

......

source

[Robittybob1]

Fair enough. I'm retired and had the time and took the time. When I said I love this stuff I was referring to doing research. Your implication is that you will digest my reference so I'll patiently wait for you to do so.

 

 

Yes of course it is evidence. The issue is figuring out what it is evidence for and it's as much evidence of a sneaky smart-mouthed truculent kid as it is for a loving supernatural being. On that point do you care to comment on the evidentiary character of the Thomas gospel? Granted you may have missed it because of the way the board software jams separate posts together, but do take the time to go back a couple posts and chew on it.

 

To download that book I had to install a program. The sites that I am now at won't allow programs to be installed. My ability to read it maybe restricted, I'll let you know.

 

If you like could you give me the reference to the Gospel of Thomas you want discussed please. I'm back at work now so I will have less time to reply etc.

Cheers.

"evidentiary character of the Thomas gospel?" Evidence of what exactly?

[Acme]

To download that book I had to install a program. The sites that I am now at won't allow programs to be installed. My ability to read it maybe restricted, I'll let you know.

That part about downloading software is sneaky spam. You can read it for free online at the link I gave. Here it is again: Greek Magic: Ancient, Medieval and Modern (This takes me directly to the text, but if it doesn't do that for you, look for the button to read it online. It was somewhere on the right IIRC, but look for it all around the page.)

 

If you like could you give me the reference to the Gospel of Thomas you want discussed please. I'm back at work now so I will have less time to reply etc.

Cheers.

"evidentiary character of the Thomas gospel?" Evidence of what exactly?

Evidence that Jesus was a child prodigy and [credited with] pulling tricks at an early age. According to Wiki, the gospel is at earliest contemporary with Luke and most likely first written in the mid- to late-2nd century A.D..Infancy Gospel of Thomas @ Wiki

 

The text: THOMAS'S GOSPEL of the INFANCY of JESUS CHRIST.

~

Addendum:

Just ran across this and while I don't have specific argument to make from it does set the stage for the practice of magic in ancient times. (Well, arguably it's not Christian and yet invokes Jesus so I'll specifically argue it's on topic. )

 

Ancient Egyptian Handbook of Spells Deciphered

...

Researchers believe that the codex may date to the 7th or 8th century. During this time, many Egyptians were Christian and the codex contains a number of invocations referencing Jesus.

 

However, some of the invocations seem more associated with a group that is sometimes called "Sethians." This group flourished in Egypt during the early centuries of Christianity and held Seth, the third son of Adam and Eve, in high regard. One invocation in the newly deciphered codex calls "Seth, Seth, the living Christ."

 

The opening of the codex refers to a divine figure named "Baktiotha" whose identity is a mystery, researchers say. The lines read, "I give thanks to you and I call upon you, the Baktiotha: The great one, who is very trustworthy; the one who is lord over the forty and the nine kinds of serpents," according to the translation.

...

Edited November 23, 2014 by Acme

[Robittybob1]

That part about downloading software is sneaky spam. You can read it for free online at the link I gave. Here it is again: Greek Magic: Ancient, Medieval and Modern (This takes me directly to the text, but if it doesn't do that for you, look for the button to read it online. It was somewhere on the right IIRC, but look for it all around the page.)

 

Evidence that Jesus was a child prodigy and [credited with] pulling tricks at an early age. According to Wiki, the gospel is at earliest contemporary with Luke and most likely first written in the mid- to late-2nd century A.D..Infancy Gospel of Thomas @ Wiki

 

The text: THOMAS'S GOSPEL of the INFANCY of JESUS CHRIST.

~

 

So I don't think of those as real events.

 

 

III. 1 Now Jesus made of that clay twelve sparrows: and it was the Sabbath day. And a child ran and told Joseph, saying: Behold, thy child playeth about the brook, and hath made sparrows of the clay, which is not lawful. 2 And he when he heard it went and said to the child: Wherefore doest thou so and profaneth the Sabbath? But Jesus answered him not, but looked upon the sparrows and said: Go ye, take your flight, and remember me in your life. And at the word they took flight and went up into the air. And when Joseph saw it he was astonished.

So in your view point Jesus would have covered 12 captured sparrows with clay. When the clay dried it allowed them to shake off the clay and fly away.

 

Can you think of all the solutions to the tricks?

Fuller text here http://www.gnosis.org/library/inftomb.htm

Edited November 23, 2014 by Robittybob1

[Acme]

So I don't think of those as real events.

No surprise. I'm sure you are not the only cherry-picker else the Thomas gospel would be in 'the' Bible. Nevertheless, the Thomas infancy gospel is real and more-or-less contemporary with other gospels so it has to be considered as an historical account of Jesus. Believe it or not. Same can be said of other apocryphal texts such as the Gospel of Mary Magdalene etcetera. EDIT: In fact, the point is actually made in Mary's Gospel. To whit:

...When Mary had said this, she was silent, since the Savior had spoken thus far with her. But Andrew answered and said to the brethren, 'Say what you think concerning what she said. For I do not believe that the Savior said this. For certainly these teachings are of other ideas." ...

So in your view point Jesus would have covered 12 captured sparrows with clay. When the clay dried it allowed them to shake off the clay and fly away.

 

Can you think of all the solutions to the tricks?

Fuller text here http://www.gnosis.org/library/inftomb.htm

I hadn't thought much on how the tricks were accomplished, but to your credit that's a pretty good shot at 'splaining the sparrow one. Way to think like a stage magician! As to the withering of the boy and the killing & resurrecting of the other boy and the blinding of the family there are many possibilities. Anything from potions/poisons (and possibly antidotes) to employing the 'victims' to play a role. ["I'll give you 5 shekels if you help me prank some people." or "If you don't help me I'll hurt you."] No end of variations on the theme of recruiting confederates. Carrot, stick, or both.

Explaining all the tricks sounds like a good challenge for Penn & Teller, though I suspect that publically discounting the miracles of Jesus as mere tricks would not be good publicity. Obviously I have no image or career to protect and so I don't give a muddy sparrow's behind who takes offense.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Acme

[Robittybob1]

No surprise. I'm sure you are not the only cherry-picker else the Thomas gospel would be in 'the' Bible. Nevertheless, the Thomas infancy gospel is real and more-or-less contemporary with other gospels so it has to be considered as an historical account of Jesus. Believe it or not. Same can be said of other apocryphal texts such as the Gospel of Mary Magdalene In fact, the point is actually made in Mary's Gospel. To whit:

 

I'll have a look and think about it. Work ain't going that great - I'm grumpy!

Edited November 23, 2014 by Robittybob1

[Acme]

I'll have a look and think about it. Work ain't going that great - I'm grumpy!

Roger. Truth, like gold, is wherever you find it. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer.