Antimatter questions (split from matter-antimatter asymmetry)

[Kramer]

Sensei
Yours, exposed tables, about disintegration of pair proton – antiproton, open another box of worms.

And indeed ask for an-other flow of questions.
But what have to do, I -- the poor layman, for not falling in “sin of hijacking”?

Nevertheless I’ll take the risk.
The tables of disintegration (reaction?) of proton -- antiproton, show us that another row of mater antimatter comes from this disintegration, plus in some other kind (bosons?).
But in “the end”, those byproduct of disintegration of mater antimatter, doesn’t they combined in…. (bosons?).
And prompt: some high thermal energy emerged that further cooled in …. Microwaves.

And as for question about “asymmetry” that put forward author of thread, is very simple the answer: a little discrepancy in “number” of (particles) of mater over anti mater.
---------
What characterizes mater and antimatter that are anti? It is charge?

No, because proton and electron have different charges but are matter. On the other hand ‘”charge less” particles have own “anti”: (neutron—antineutron).
You say: It depends by their sub structure. Aren’t there quarks – anti-quarks. What is their difference?
-----------

Speculation
I think that matter is characterized by gravity, as antimatter by anti-gravity and not by electric charge. And I speculate that discrepancy between them is not so much. I think that mater anti mater is in equal proportion in bosons. And as bosons are “particles” of fields I think they are in proportion fifty-fifty. In mass bodies they are in proportion 2/3 part matter sub-particle with 1/3 part antimatter sub-particle.
In space, where the sub-particles of antimatter are not able to create particles, they are in proportion of another 1/3 part.
Now shoot. The only saving fact, for me, is far away: in possible positive result of anti-gravity experiment in CERN.

 

[Sensei]

plus in some other kind (bosons?).

Pions are bosons in SM.

 

What characterizes mater and antimatter that are anti? It is charge? No, because proton and electron have different charges but are matter.

 

Normal matter is made of proton (+1e) with electron (-1e),

and antimatter is made of antiproton (-1e) with positron (+1e).

 

Proton and antiproton have the same rest mass m_p, and

electron and positron also have the same rest mass m_e.

Or at least so close to its antiparticle that it's indistinguishable for measuring devices.

 

Speculation

 

I think you should spend more time reading and learning and performing your own experiments..

f.e. have you ever made your own Hydrogen plasma? It would cost less than 100 usd (50 usd on Cockcroft-Walton high voltage generator self made)..

 

I will send you list of theories and discoveries Physics History since 1600.

It's more than 200 articles to read. Read one per day and you will be more knowledgeable after 7 months..

Nevertheless reading this article, it gave me satisfaction that unity of electric charge is unbreakable, but didnt give a clue how they are obtained? .

Do you mean how do we know e = 1.602*10^-19 C ?

It's from oil drop experiment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_drop_experiment

 

Although it can be calculated during electrolysis of water, when we know Avogadro const, ideal gas law, and ohm/ampere laws.

 

Another thing: about conservation of baryon number: Why exist this law?

As always, observation of how Universe is behaving.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Sensei

[Kramer]

 

Mordred
In the case of charge for neutral particles the antimatter has the same quarks configuration but opposite charge on the quarks. Color charge.
Even charged particles the antiparticle is based on its opposite color charge.

Take for example proton 2 up and 1 down quarks. The anti proton is 2 anti up and 1 anti down quarks. The electron is elementary and has no substructure so it's anti is opposite electromagnetic charge. The positron.
Gravity has nothing to do with matter antimatter.
----- Am I wrong about programs of CERN on behalf of gravity-antigravity upon hydrogen and “anti hydrogen”? If “Gravity has nothing to do with matter antimatter” are they so dumb to try about something obvious.
But let see this way. As a lay-man I have not knowledge that positron and anti-proton have the same “kind” of mass, as electron and proton, I means “matter mass”. It is obvious that if they have the same “matter mass”, the gravity about them will be the same. There will not be anti gravity, in Anti-hydrogen.
Can you explain to me, with simple words, how scientist have measured “Kind” of mass of “positron” or “anti proton” , I mean, it is or it is not ----- anti-gravity? With what amount of certainty is it measured?
If you can, I am fool and stupid, (and, sorry but, so are they in CERN).
If you not, then you are kind of parrot, very smart repetitive, but not a thinker as researcher.
Sorry for my bluntness.
Sensei
Pions are bosons in SM.

---- O yes. There is something to speculate about charged bosons. Aren’t they always in pair and in “anti-es” ? Maybe their “subs” have had not opportunity about “time” and “space” to create full “gamma” in panorama of your experiments..

Proton and antiproton have the same rest mass m_p, and

electron and positron also have the same rest mass m_e.

Or at least so close to its antiparticle that it's indistinguishable for measuring devices.
---- Maybe you have miss-understood my question. It was not about “amount”. It was about “mass” and “anti mass” in view point of their comport toward gravity.

I think you should spend more time reading and learning and performing your own experiments.
---- Good council for both of us and for every body, nevertheless how self-opinionated one may be. I will ad: and thinking about readings with self wits.

Do you mean how do we know e = 1.602*10^-19 C ?
It's from oil drop experiment.
---- O no ! I asked how electric charge appeared from “nothing” around.

As always, observation of how Universe is behaving.
------Sorry, but I think this is a rubber stamp answer.

 

[Strange]

 

Am I wrong about programs of CERN on behalf of gravity-antigravity upon hydrogen and “anti hydrogen”? If “Gravity has nothing to do with matter antimatter” are they so dumb to try about something obvious.

 

No one expects matter and antimatter to respond differently to gravity. But scientists do like to check these things.

 

Well, almost no one: there are a few pretty speculative/fringe theories that predict otherwise.

[swansont]

 

 

But what have to do, I -- the poor layman, for not falling in “sin of hijacking”?

Nevertheless I’ll take the risk.

 

 

!

Moderator Note

 

Why would you take the risk?* In the other thread, I told you what you, the "poor layman", should do: Start a new thread. That's what you do when you want to discuss something of your own interest, or engage is speculation, based on something you read in someone else's thread. It's not hard to do this. You go to the top level and click on the "start new topic" button. You've done it before.

 

I'm at a loss at how this can be so difficult to comprehend for someone hoping to unlock mysteries of matter and antimatter interactions. Don't interrupt an ongoing thread. Start a new one.

 

*Rhetorical. Do not respond to this modnote.

 

[Sensei]

Can you explain to me, with simple words, how scientist have measured Kind of mass of positron

I told you it in other thread- you can do it even by yourself.

 

Beta Decay Plus is emitting positron.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron_emission

 

Majority of unstable isotopes proton-rich are emitting positrons. f.e.

[math]Carbon^{11} \rightarrow Boron^{11} + e^+ + V_e + 0.96 MeV[/math]

 

How to calculate Decay Energy you can learn reading paper in my signature.

 

Basically - we measure mass of particle before decaying, we measure mass of particle after decaying, we see what has charge particle that is emitted, we see how much it's accelerated. And we can calculate what must have mass our emitted particle.

 

Fusion between proton and proton also releases positron:

[math]p^+ + p^+ \rightarrow D^+ + e^+ + V_e + 0.42 MeV[/math]

 

When looking at it from energy point of view:

[math]938.272 MeV + 938.272 MeV = 1875.61 MeV + 0.511 MeV + 0.42 MeV[/math]

(divide them by 931.494 MeV and you will have results in amu).

 

Mass can be also calculated when particle is making circles in external magnetic field.

 

 

I mean, it is or it is not ----- anti-gravity?

It's not anti-gravity.

 

---- Maybe you have miss-understood my question. It was not about amount. It was about mass and anti mass in view point of their comport toward gravity.

There is no anti-mass in what we're talking about....

Edited November 12, 2014 by Sensei

[Kramer]

Sensei
I told you it in other thread- you can do it even by yourself.

----- Have you explained --- that exist experimental proof that positron and anti proton have not antigravity property? !I don’t think so.

Beta Decay Plus is emitting positron.
http://en.wikipedia....sitron_emission

Majority of unstable isotopes proton-rich are emitting positrons. f.e.
----- And what new in this?


How to calculate Decay Energy you can learn reading paper in my signature.

Basically - we measure mass of particle before decaying, we measure mass of particle after decaying, we see what has charge particle that is emitted, we see how much it's accelerated. And we can calculate what must have mass our emitted particle.
------ I don’t say that positron has not mass. What I say, in speculation, is that mass of positron must have --- antigravity property, as it has --- anti electric charge.
This doesn’t mean that mass and charge are not physics fact. And I ad plus, that they doesn’t disappear as physical facts even in the so called “ annihilation” process, They are the main characters of matter antimatter reality, and they exist side by side in form of sub particles: (- e / -g) and (+ e / -g) for matter, and (+e /+g ) , (- e/+g ) for anti matter. They are divided by space even when their physical characters attract both ways: electrically and gravity, as in the case of neutrinos. Because I think that ‘Plank length’ is physical as are other “Plank constants’, and it hold them divided.
----- As you oppose my speculation, give me your version what happens with masses and charges of electron positron coalescence that we call gamma photons. Explain your version why two or three photons and not one. ( I think this is an argument in favor of my speculation that electron, positron, and photon have particular structure where two of four basic “subs” have different disposition.
-----As you oppose my speculation, give me your version about: how two particles (protons) with only 2*3 quarks when collide gave hundred maybe thousands particles (some of which with mass higher, than mother that has gave them birth).
----- And by the way Sensei, what create each other field – particles or particle --- field?

Sensei
I told you it in other thread- you can do it even by yourself.

----- Have you explained --- that exist experimental proof that positron and anti proton have not antigravity property? !I don’t think so.

Beta Decay Plus is emitting positron.
http://en.wikipedia....sitron_emission

Majority of unstable isotopes proton-rich are emitting positrons. f.e.
----- And what new in this?


How to calculate Decay Energy you can learn reading paper in my signature.

Basically - we measure mass of particle before decaying, we measure mass of particle after decaying, we see what has charge particle that is emitted, we see how much it's accelerated. And we can calculate what must have mass our emitted particle.
------ I don’t say that positron has not mass. What I say, in speculation, is that mass of positron must have --- antigravity property, as it has --- anti electric charge.
This doesn’t mean that mass and charge are not physics fact. And I ad plus, that they doesn’t disappear as physical facts even in the so called “ annihilation” process, They are the main characters of matter antimatter reality, and they exist side by side in form of sub particles: (- e / -g) and (+ e / -g) for matter, and (+e /+g ) , (- e/+g ) for anti matter. They are divided by space even when their physical characters attract both ways: electrically and gravity, as in the case of neutrinos. Because I think that ‘Plank length’ is physical as are other “Plank constants’, and it hold them divided.
----- As you oppose my speculation, give me your version what happens with masses and charges of electron positron coalescence that we call gamma photons. Explain your version why two or three photons and not one. ( I think this is an argument in favor of my speculation that electron, positron, and photon have particular structure where two of four basic “subs” have different disposition.
-----As you oppose my speculation, give me your version about: how two particles (protons) with only 2*3 quarks when collide gave hundred maybe thousands particles (some of which with mass higher, than mother that has gave them birth).
----- And by the way Sensei, what create each other field – particles or particle --- field?

 

Strange

No one expects matter and antimatter to respond differently to gravity. But scientists "do like" to check these things.
----Sure, to assure frighten people about “dooms day”. No?

 

Well, almost no one: there are a few pretty speculative/fringe theories that predict otherwise.
----- I would like to read any of these speculative / fringe theories ???!. It will be amusing. Give me any clue if they are safe from warnings.

 

 

Sensei
I told you it in other thread- you can do it even by yourself.

----- Have you explained --- that exist experimental proof that positron and anti proton have not antigravity property? ! I don’t think so.

Beta Decay Plus is emitting positron.
http://en.wikipedia....sitron_emission

Majority of unstable isotopes proton-rich are emitting positrons. f.e.
----- And what new in this?


How to calculate Decay Energy you can learn reading paper in my signature.

Basically - we measure mass of particle before decaying, we measure mass of particle after decaying, we see what has charge particle that is emitted, we see how much it's accelerated. And we can calculate what must have mass our emitted particle.
------ I don’t say that positron has not mass. What I say, in speculation, is that mass of positron must have --- antigravity property, as it has --- anti electric charge.
This doesn’t mean that mass and charge are not physics fact. And I ad plus, that they doesn’t disappear as physical facts even in the so called “ annihilation” process, They are the main characters of matter -- antimatter reality, and they exist side by side in form of sub particles: (- e / -g) and (+ e / -g) for matter, and (+e /+g ) , (- e/+g ) for anti matter. They are divided by space even when their physical characters attract both ways: electrically and gravity, as in the case of neutrinos. Because I think that ‘Plank length’ is physical as are other “Plank constants’, and it hold them divided.
----- As you oppose my speculation, give me your version what happens with masses and charges of electron positron coalescence that we call gamma photons. Explain your version why two or three photons and not one. ( I think this is an argument in favor of my speculation that electron, positron, and photon have particular structure where two of four basic “subs” have different disposition.
-----As you oppose my speculation, give me your version about: how two particles (protons) with only 2*3 quarks when collide gave hundred maybe thousands particles (some of which with mass higher, than mother that has gave them birth).
----- And by the way Sensei, what create each other: --- field – particles or particle --- field?

[Sensei]

Sensei

I told you it in other thread- you can do it even by yourself.

----- Have you explained --- that exist experimental proof that positron and anti proton have not antigravity property? !I don’t think so.

 

You basically don't understand what is told to you.

Anti-gravity hypothesis is equal to negative-mass, and negative-energy.

Since we have positive mass,positive energy of unstable isotope which is decaying through beta decay plus, emitting positron, then obviously mass and energy of positron also must be positive.

[Strange]

----- I would like to read any of these speculative / fringe theories ???!. It will be amusing. Give me any clue if they are safe from warnings.

 

Here's a deal: you learn to use the

function (there is a button you can press) and I will try dig out some of the relevant scientific articles.

[Kramer]

 

Sensei
You basically don't understand what is told to you.

Anti-gravity hypothesis is equal to negative-mass, and negative-energy.

Since we have positive mass,positive energy of unstable isotope which is decaying through beta decay plus, emitting positron, then obviously mass and energy of positron also must be positive.
----- I have different concept:
Mass and energy of antimatter sub- particles are ”anti’s” of mass and energy of matter sub -particles. They oppose each other, but this doesn’t mean that they eliminate, “ annihilate” each other.
This is, because they (both kind) supposed to be eternal, and indestructible.
For example: ((- e / - g) with ( - e / - g)) builds a crude electron, common particle. With mass “me = 9,09 * 10 ^-31kg” if radius between them is Re = 2.818*10^-15m.
The same will be with antimatter sub-particle:
((+ e / + g) with (+ e / + g )) build a crude positron, common particle, with the same mass for the same radius between them.
I suppose their structure may have opposite sense of evolving.
In both cases we will have “spherical movement” of two subs evolving toward each other.
----------
In case of the photon , when one electron and one positron coalesce for a moment, they switch one of their subs and create two photons:
((- e / - g) with ( - e / - g)) + ((+ e / + g) with (+ e / + g )) = 2 * (( - e / - g) + (+ e / + g))

Electron + Positron = 2 Photons
The electric ability and gravity ability, between mater’s sub-particle and antimatter’s sub-particle, shadow each other but doesn’t eliminate or “annihilate” each other.
When sub - particle switch, it’s sense of movement coincide with that of new companion, and they both move in the same direction, continuing to evolve toward each other:
The spherical movement ( of spherical cow --- shame on ….) transform in helix.
Ditto this, Sensei, I am waiting for your response, or version, about my questions in my previous post. If you find difficulties to respond, you my ask help from Mr. Strange …. or from higher, if not highest, quoted persons.
I will not be offended if you, or any one else, don’t see interesting the dispute in this speculation. Who is vested with powers of closing , go ahead.

[Sensei]

Ditto this, Sensei, I am waiting for your response, or version, about my questions in my previous post.

 

I gave you it, half year ago+ in PM (private message). Version that would match currently known physical constants. You ignored it.

 

I gave you database of physics theories and discoveries. You ignored it..

Edited November 14, 2014 by Sensei

[Mordred]

First off as Sensei has been telling you the only difference between anti matter and its matter opposite is its charge. Ie color or electromagnetic charge. There is no such thing as anti mass or anti gravity. The positron for example has the EXACT mass as the electron both has positive mass and both is influenced by gravity by the EXACT amount.

 

You can make up whatever sci fi imagination you want. However we can and do make various forms of antimatter and have measured its properties with precision measurements.

 

By the way a quick Google to wiki would tell you what their properties are. Those wiki pages contain reference papers.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiproton

 

Here is an example. Now ask yourself do you see a minus sign in front of the mass value? Of course you don't the reason is that it has the same amount of energy as the proton. The color charge of its quarks is opposite and thus its electromagnetic charge is also opposite. Other than that it is identical to the proton.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Mordred

[swansont]

 

----- I have different concept:

 

 

 

!

Moderator Note

Yes, and you have threads already in progress. That's where this discussion belongs.