ajb Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Scientific knowledge changes with time. Exactly, while religious fundamentalist will stick to their book as being the ultimate unshakable truth. So the evidence against the books works today but will that evidence too be lacking in 2,000 years time? I don't quite follow. Science will change at it is possible that our understanding of the Universe will be different from today. That does not mean that what we know today is incorrect, only that there are other layers to the Universe that we don't yet know of. Do the Muslims accept that the Earth is a globe rather than flat? Hopefully if they rewrite the Koran they get that bit correct, and when the Christians rewrite Genesis they put in evolution. From what I can gather the Qur'an says in many places that the Earth is flat and in one place 'egg shaped'. So, if you take the egg shape as the correct one, then the Qur'an is not far wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 One problem here is that the text is imprecise, which gives a lot of leeway for interpretation. It's one thing to say egg-shaped and another to say it's an oblate spheroid and give the polar and equatorial diameters. i am not very religious my self however i do find it hard to see how something written 1439 years ago could 'advise' us in the decisions we make today and the decisions we make in the future. how ever if for instance religion didn't exist there would be a lot less charity donation as there are 65% of religious people donate to charity regularly as of religious causes and 80% of Americans are religiously affiliated. On what basis do you claim that if religion didn't exist that these people would not donate to charity? What fraction of non-religious people already donate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Exactly, while religious fundamentalist will stick to their book as being the ultimate unshakable truth. I don't quite follow. Science will change at it is possible that our understanding of the Universe will be different from today. That does not mean that what we know today is incorrect, only that there are other layers to the Universe that we don't yet know of. From what I can gather the Qur'an says in many places that the Earth is flat and in one place 'egg shaped'. So, if you take the egg shape as the correct one, then the Qur'an is not far wrong. It isn't supported by two references I have just read. http://en.islamtoday.net/node/667 Says the Quran does not say the Earth is egg shaped, but that it is laid out. (Sculptured?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajb Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 Says the Quran does not say the Earth is egg shaped, but that it is laid out. (Sculptured?) Al-Qur’an 79:30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 It isn't supported by two references I have just read. http://en.islamtoday.net/node/667 Says the Quran does not say the Earth is egg shaped, but that it is laid out. (Sculptured?) Eggs are laid. QED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahya515 Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 Only religion? Religion is not required to deal with any of those things, as evidenced by the people who deal with such things every day, without religion. people invented religion in the past because they needed it , they worshipped gods from their own imagination , so it is not a matter of something true or false when I need a god I make it by myself and worship it , and medical science presents little , people still get blind , they loose thier legs and arms , some depend on drugs which have serious side effects ,etc.Moses , Jesus and Mohammed these prophets just improved the idea about a supernatural entity, if religion is made by people why we see a ( jump) in the progress of its ideas, from people who make their gods to people who worship God having holy books , temples, forbidden and allowed things, prayers, Adam and Eve, etc who did invent all these things suddenly ? Moses?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 people invented religion in the past because they needed it , they worshipped gods from their own imagination , so it is not a matter of something true or false when I need a god I make it by myself and worship it , Not everyone feels a need for a God, therefore they do not invent one, nor worship one invented by others. Are you agreeing that your God is not real, but is invented? and medical science presents little , people still get blind , they loose thier legs and arms , some depend on drugs which have serious side effects , Medical science does quite a lot. Without medical science I would probably be dead now. Yes, people go blind, but millions have their sight rescued, restored, or preserved by medical science. People lose limbs, but medical science provides increasingly sophisticated prosthetic limbs. Drugs can have serious side effects, they also combat diseases that a century or two ago would have been fatal. Further, your argument for religion relates to the spiritual aspects of existence. Medical science has to do with the physical. Religion does not offer a practical way of dealing with that. Moses , Jesus and Mohammed these prophets just improved the idea about a supernatural entity, if religion is made by people why we see a ( jump) in the progress of its ideas, from people who make their gods to people who worship God having holy books , temples, forbidden and allowed things, prayers, Adam and Eve, etc who did invent all these things suddenly ? Moses?! Why would we not see a development of religious ideas? Humans tend to improve things over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 people invented religion in the past because they needed it , they worshipped gods from their own imagination , so it is not a matter of something true or false when I need a god I make it by myself and worship it , and medical science presents little , people still get blind , they loose thier legs and arms , some depend on drugs which have serious side effects ,etc.Moses , Jesus and Mohammed these prophets just improved the idea about a supernatural entity, if religion is made by people why we see a ( jump) in the progress of its ideas, from people who make their gods to people who worship God having holy books , temples, forbidden and allowed things, prayers, Adam and Eve, etc who did invent all these things suddenly ? Moses?! Religion has often impeded ideas, when they conflicted with ideology. And to claim that medical science "presents little" is naive at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahya515 Posted November 16, 2014 Author Share Posted November 16, 2014 Religion has often impeded ideas, when they conflicted with ideology. perhaps it differs from religion to religion and from belief to belief and from people who interpret religion to others and from people who understand religion to others and from people who apply religion to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iStrangey Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 On what basis do you claim that if religion didn't exist that these people would not donate to charity? What fraction of non-religious people already donate? As 65% donate on religious cause's and influences for example the pope as an influence or Jewish tzedakah. however the chances are that if religion didn't exist that most likely some of these people would find a different influence to give to charity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 As 65% donate on religious cause's and influences for example the pope as an influence or Jewish tzedakah. however the chances are that if religion didn't exist that most likely some of these people would find a different influence to give to charity. Is that a withdrawal of your earlier claim that in the absence of religion there would be fewer charitable donations? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 perhaps it differs from religion to religion and from belief to belief and from people who interpret religion to others and from people who understand religion to others and from people who apply religion to others. Perhaps it does not, if not it should be easy for you to give examples... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 On what basis do you claim that if religion didn't exist that these people would not donate to charity? What fraction of non-religious people already donate? It seems that once you remove "mandatory" giving (tithing) then there is no longer an obvious relationship between religion and level of charitable donation: http://business.time.com/2012/08/21/how-religious-affiliation-affects-charitable-giving/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iStrangey Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 Is that a withdrawal of your earlier claim that in the absence of religion there would be fewer charitable donations? yes however I'm saying that charity wouldn't do as good as it does with religion as there are many religious charity's such as YMCA Salvation Army Christian Children’s Fund St. Jude’s Hospital Habitat For Humanity International Intercristo Promise Keepers World Relief Remuda (Eating Disorder help) Christian Aid Canada Christian Aid USA International Needs International Prison Ministry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 yes however I'm saying that charity wouldn't do as good as it does with religion as there are many religious charity's such as YMCA Salvation Army Christian Children’s Fund St. Jude’s Hospital Habitat For Humanity International Intercristo Promise Keepers World Relief Remuda (Eating Disorder help) Christian Aid Canada Christian Aid USA International Needs International Prison Ministry My point is that you don't actually know that. You are making an assumption that these people only donate because of religion and would therefore not donate if religion went away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 yes however I'm saying that charity wouldn't do as good as it does with religion as there are many religious charity's such as Salvation Army I donate to the Salvation Army. I am not a Christian. I do not donate to them because they are a religious organisation. I donate to them because I like their approach to supporting the homeless. When I lived in Egypt I donated on a regular basis to a Christian organisation that organised provision of clean water to poor villages. I did this, not because they were Christian, but because I thought there work was important and well organised. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iStrangey Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I donate to the Salvation Army. I am not a Christian. I do not donate to them because they are a religious organisation. I donate to them because I like their approach to supporting the homeless. When I lived in Egypt I donated on a regular basis to a Christian organisation that organised provision of clean water to poor villages. I did this, not because they were Christian, but because I thought there work was important and well organised. well if those charity's didn't exist then that means that not 100% of the money they make would go to other charity's. Moreover this shows that these charity's are doing good for the world as they allow people who wouldn't donate to them because they have too, donate to them because they want too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 well if those charity's didn't exist then that means that not 100% of the money they make would go to other charity's. What is your evidence for that? People found charitable organisations, work for charitable organisations and donate to charitable organisations that are not religious in nature. They respond to perceived needs. As an occasional giver I look for organisations that work in areas I consider important. If the Salvation Army did not exist I should likely to give to other charities that address homelessness. For example, I often buy a copy of The Big Issue and add something over the cover price. Moreover this shows that these charity's are doing good for the world as they allow people who wouldn't donate to them because they have too, donate to them because they want too. Which is exactly the same for any donations I make to the non-religious World Wildlife Fund for Nature. I'm now confused as to what it is you are trying to claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie71 Posted November 19, 2014 Share Posted November 19, 2014 Charity can be measured many ways. I don't donate much money wise, but I frequently donate my time me to help others. I do pro bono mental health assessments, I repair bicycles and motorcycles, I donate clothes and shoes, I donate custom knives etc. the amounts would be in the thousands of dollars yearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad For Science Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 (edited) how ever if for instance religion didn't exist there would be a lot less charity donation as there are 65% of religious people donate to charity regularly as of religious causes and 80% of Americans are religiously affiliated. Oftentimes when religious groups raise money for charity it is mostly aimed at self promotion rather than actually helping people. A classic example was a scheme to get people to donate money for solar powered Bibles to be sent for earthquake victims in Haiti instead of actually sending them something they can actually use to help them such as food or medical supplies: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-tarico/solar-powered-bibles-for_b_434307.html?ir=Australia Edited October 16, 2015 by Mad For Science Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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