Making ancient time giant water wheel to lift water

[shaks]

I have one project of developing setup to lift heavy water at some height. A setup that take less energy as compare to traditional water pumps. I was searching on net and I found giant "water wheels" of ancient times to lift water.

Like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norias_of_Hama

Is this possible to rotate this with electric motor and make setup to lift water which is efficient than traditional water pumps?

I was thinking that due to circular motion, inertia, momentum, centripetal force, etc might be this can be more efficient than traditional water pumps!. I thought it may require more power to move it from rest but once wheel gets momentum then it requires less power as compare to moving from rest.

 

For example:
Wheel diameter: 30 meter
Water mass: 100,000 kg
Speed: 1 round in 10 minutes
Driven by: electric motor

I don't have any physics background so please excuse me if you feel this is stupid idea.

Please give your opinion on this?

Shaks

Edited November 28, 2014 by shaks

[John Cuthber]

At best, it might be marginally more efficient than a more conventional pump.

My guess is that it would be less efficient.

[Robittybob1]

I have one project of developing setup to lift heavy water at some height. A setup that take less energy as compare to traditional water pumps. I was searching on net and I found giant "water wheels" of ancient times to lift water.

 

Like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norias_of_Hama

 

Is this possible to rotate this with electric motor and make setup to lift water which is efficient than traditional water pumps?

 

I was thinking that due to circular motion, inertia, momentum, centripetal force, etc might be this can be more efficient than traditional water pumps!. I thought it may require more power to move it from rest but once wheel gets momentum then it requires less power as compare to moving from rest.

 

For example:

Wheel diameter: 30 meter

Water mass: 100,000 kg

Speed: 1 round in 10 minutes

Driven by: electric motor

 

I don't have any physics background so please excuse me if you feel this is stupid idea.

 

Please give your opinion on this?

 

Shaks

You're going to need a lot of gearing to get an electric motor reduced down to 1 rev /10 mins Do you want to lift 10 tons of water every revolution? It would have to be a very heavy wheel, so how many horse power will that take to move?

[shaks]

You're going to need a lot of gearing to get an electric motor reduced down to 1 rev /10 mins Do you want to lift 10 tons of water every revolution? It would have to be a very heavy wheel, so how many horse power will that take to move?

 

I am looking for same answer.

 

Wheel diameter: 30 meter

Water mass: 100,000 kg

Speed: 1 round in 10 minutes

Driven by: electric motor

 

100,000 kg water = 26,417 gallon per round (1 gallon = 3.78541 liter/kg)

26,417 gallon / 10 minutes = 2,641 gallon per minute (gpm)

 

I found formula of calculating pump power according to gpm.

Motor HP = (height in feet * gpm) / 3960

Motor HP = (98.42 x 2641) / 3960 = 65.64 HP = 48.95 KW

 

So if traditional pumps are used to lift 2,641 gpm then estimated 48.95 KW motor is required.

 

Any idea if same amount of water is lifted by water wheel then how much electricity will be required?

 

I believe that moving wheel from rest to required speed will take same electricity but once wheel get momentum then it should take less electricity to keep that momentum/speed?

 

Shaks

Edited November 28, 2014 by shaks

[swansont]

49 kW is the amount of power you need to raise the water to that height, at that rate. It does not take into account the efficiency of the system used to run it, i.e. it will not work with 49 kW (or less), but you don't know how much extra you will need.

[Sensei]

48.95 KW

Typical house in EU has power provided U=230 V,I=18 A, P=U*I=230 V*18 A = 4140 W = 4 kW

After exceeding Imax fuses are disconnecting..

 

Better check your maximums before proceeding (even if you're in factory).

Edited November 28, 2014 by Sensei

[Endy0816]

On the similar sakia, but may help with the numbers:

 

http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNAAM711.pdf

 

Still in use today.

 

http://www.apachecorp.com/News/Articles/View_Article.aspx?Article.ItemID=2122

 

Everything suggests they are less efficient, but can make up for it in terms of maintenance costs depending on how rural the situation is.

[John Cuthber]

These people told you it's 49KW

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/making-ancient-time-water-wheel-to-lift-water.784503/

So did these

http://www.thescienceforum.com/physics/47711-possible-make-energy-efficient-ancient-time-water-wheel-lift-water.html

And (roughly speaking) these

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=52915.msg444395#msg444395

 

so why are you asking again?

[shaks]

so why are you asking again?

 

Simple, because still I did not get answer. If you have reply here.

[Robittybob1]

 

Simple, because still I did not get answer. If you have reply here.

There is no answer that can be calculated. You can work out how much energy is required to lift that amount of water that height and at least double it to overcome inefficiency due to friction and viscosity of the water.

The whole wheel is going to weigh tonnes and what sort of bearings are you using, and then all the bearings and pulleys in the gear reduction drive. If it was the best way to go they would have kept using the technology.

The pictures I saw used the water flowing past the wheel at the bottom to power it. In that situation it would be still one of the best. If the water being pumped is already stationary centrifugal pumps probably are the best technology.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Robittybob1

[shaks]

There is no answer that can be calculated. You can work out how much energy is required to lift that amount of water that height and at least double it to overcome inefficiency due to friction and viscosity of the water.

 

Everyone says this but no one mention all steps how to make correct calculation? Can you tell me?

 

I want to calculate water wheel on "circular motion" rules not "linear motion" rules. If you want to help, you can tell me from where to start and how to find required power to rotate?

 

Shaks

Edited November 29, 2014 by shaks

[Robittybob1]

 

Everyone says this but no one mention all steps how to make correct calculation? Can you tell me?

 

I want to calculate water wheel on "circular motion" rules not "linear motion" rules. If you want to help, you can tell me from where to start and how to find required power to rotate?

 

Shaks

I don't think it will matter if it is on a circle or straight up against gravity, so just calculate how much energy it will take to raise that mass of water that height, and then power required depending on how fast you want to do it.

[shaks]

On the similar sakia, but may help with the numbers:

 

http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNAAM711.pdf

 

 

This is good info and I will try to explore it.

 

The pictures I saw used the water flowing past the wheel at the bottom to power it. In that situation it would be still one of the best.

 

I like this idea. The first priority is to "rotate water wheel" with "flowing water". Now the question is how much water required to rotate such wheel? I mean following:

 

1. How much water flow required

2. Above water flow can rotate how big wheel

3. How much water can be lifted in one round

 

I think this is good idea, I created one diagram of my idea regarding flowing water.

 

 

Will this work i.e. we can create slob to create pressure in water flow so wheel may be rotated but the question is how to measure force of flowing water?

 

How to measure force of flowing water or kinetic energy or potential energy of flowing water?

 

Any idea on this?

 

so just calculate how much energy it will take to raise that mass of water that height, and then power required depending on how fast you want to do it.

 

What are equations to calculate "energy" and "power" as you mentioned?

 

Shaks

[swansont]

Everyone says this but no one mention all steps how to make correct calculation? Can you tell me?

 

I want to calculate water wheel on "circular motion" rules not "linear motion" rules. If you want to help, you can tell me from where to start and how to find required power to rotate?

 

Potential energy is path independent — all that matters is the initial and final position, so it is not a matter of "circular motion" rules vs "linear motion" rules.

 

You haven't given enough detail to do the correct calculation. You would need to know how much friction there is and what the efficiency of the motor is, for starters.

[Robittybob1]

 

This is good info and I will try to explore it.

 

 

I like this idea. The first priority is to "rotate water wheel" with "flowing water". Now the question is how much water required to rotate such wheel? I mean following:

 

1. How much water flow required

2. Above water flow can rotate how big wheel

3. How much water can be lifted in one round

 

I think this is good idea, I created one diagram of my idea regarding flowing water.

 

 

Will this work i.e. we can create slob to create pressure in water flow so wheel may be rotated but the question is how to measure force of flowing water?

 

How to measure force of flowing water or kinetic energy or potential energy of flowing water?

 

Any idea on this?

 

 

What are equations to calculate "energy" and "power" as you mentioned?

 

Shaks

The diagram looks silly, that 2nd cube of water - where does the height of this come from?

[shaks]

The diagram looks silly, that 2nd cube of water - where does the height of this come from?

 

Actually I create this diagram in hurry because I will be busy and can create proper diagram with amount of flow after few hours so I posted it so I can get some feedback while I am out. Ignore that I will create that again and make it equal to canal height. Make it wider so water stores there and then flow out with pressure. There is also idea to make canal a little narrow at end to create pressure.

 

Hopefully you got the idea/concept, what do you say about this, will this work something. I mean create pressure with slob and some kind of physical building and canals and then water moves to next wheel.

 

Shaks

Edited November 29, 2014 by shaks

[Robittybob1]

 

Actually I create this diagram in hurry because I will be busy and can create proper diagram with amount of flow after few hours so I posted it so I can get some feedback while I am out. Ignore that I will create that again and make it equal to canal height. Make it wider so water stores there and then flow out with pressure. There is also idea to make canal a little narrow at end to create pressure.

 

Hopefully you got the idea/concept, what do you say about this, will this work something. I mean create pressure with slob and some kind of physical building and canals and then water moves to next wheel.

 

Shaks

Don't bother, for unless you have ground that is continually falling away you are not getting any water to flow. You have to have a specific geological situation to work with and obviously the bottom of a water slide is ridiculous to start with.

Unless you tell me that the water is wasted from the bottom of the water slide, you can't go and take 100 tonnes of water away every 10 minutes.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Robittybob1

[shaks]

Don't bother, for unless you have ground that is continually falling away you are not getting any water to flow. You have to have a specific geological situation to work with and obviously the bottom of a water slide is ridiculous to start with.

Unless you tell me that the water is wasted from the bottom of the water slide, you can't go and take 100 tonnes of water away every 10 minutes.

 

Water from all slides/rides is collected in a central pool from where we can take it anywhere. Its around 20,000 gpm (gallon per minute) coming in central pool. I did not mention to start from bottom of water slide.

 

Any idea how to calculate force of flowing water i.e. we can make geological location according to requirement. You give you idea how it should be to achieve the goal?

 

 

Shaks

I found this http://www.nws.noaa.gov/os/water/tadd/images/WaterPhysics.pdfand reading, might be there is something related to my concern.

 

Shaks

[Robittybob1]

 

Water from all slides/rides is collected in a central pool from where we can take it anywhere. Its around 20,000 gpm (gallon per minute) coming in central pool. I did not mention to start from bottom of water slide.

 

Any idea how to calculate force of flowing water i.e. we can make geological location according to requirement. You give you idea how it should be to achieve the goal?

 

 

Shaks

I found this http://www.nws.noaa.gov/os/water/tadd/images/WaterPhysics.pdfand reading, might be there is something related to my concern.

 

Shaks

Don't they pump that water up to the top of the rides again?

Look up turbines and pelton wheel.

http://www.hidropower.si/en/products?gclid=CMvxzse-n8ICFRNvvAod0akA8w - there will be plenty of ideas.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Robittybob1

[shaks]

Don't they pump that water up to the top of the rides again?

Look up turbines and pelton wheel.

http://www.hidropower.si/en/products?gclid=CMvxzse-n8ICFRNvvAod0akA8w - there will be plenty of ideas.

 

 

Wonderful, I started this thread for same purpose to develop such setup to lift water which take less running cost as compare to traditional pumps.

 

Turbines and pelton wheels are irrelevant for current project. How do you connect these to lift water without using electricity?

 

Shas

Edited November 29, 2014 by shaks

[Robittybob1]

 

 

Wonderful, I started this thread for same purpose to develop such setup to lift water which take less running cost as compare to traditional pumps.

 

Shas

Could it be done through evaporation/condensation?

[shaks]

Could it be done through evaporation/condensation?

 

No, it can't be. Powering water wheel with flowing water is good idea, I want to work more on this. I mean want to find force of flowing water and then calculate at what speed water can rotate water wheel to lift water.

 

Shaks

[Robittybob1]

 

No, it can't be. Powering water wheel with flowing water is good idea, I want to work more on this. I mean want to find force of flowing water and then calculate at what speed water can rotate water wheel to lift water.

 

Shaks

You'd be lucky if you would lift even a fraction of the water rushing past the wheel. say 5% would be a guess.

[shaks]

You'd be lucky if you would lift even a fraction of the water rushing past the wheel. say 5% would be a guess.

 

So, you can't help anymore regarding calculating force of flowing water.

 

The purpose is for example lift as much water as it can be by installing like 10 wheels in a row. Same water is flowing and each wheel is lifting some water. Installation cost of these wheels is one time cost however pumping cost is daily running cost.

 

So first attempt is to make such setup which can lift water by consuming less electricity (not free, I said less) as compare to traditional pumps. Even if 10 wheels can lift 30%-40% of total flowing water (like 20,000 gpm coming in main pool and then flowing out towards wheels) then its not bad deal. And rest can be lifted with some other mechanism or traditional pumps. In this case at least 30%-40% pumping cost will be saved for forever.

 

Anybody help here?

 

Shaks

5% would be a guess.

 

If each wheel can lift 5% of water flowing under wheel, then its not bad deal. 10 wheels x 5% = 50% of total water coming out from main pool.

 

Shaks

[Robittybob1]

 

So, you can't help anymore regarding calculating force of flowing water.

 

The purpose is for example lift as much water as it can be by installing like 10 wheels in a row. Same water is flowing and each wheel is lifting some water. Installation cost of these wheels is one time cost however pumping cost is daily running cost.

 

So first attempt is to make such setup which can lift water by consuming less electricity (not free, I said less) as compare to traditional pumps. Even if 10 wheels can lift 30%-40% of total flowing water (like 20,000 gpm coming in main pool and then flowing out towards wheels) then its not bad deal. And rest can be lifted with some other mechanism or traditional pumps. In this case at least 30%-40% pumping cost will be saved for forever.

 

Anybody help here?

 

Shaks

In my opinion it won't work using wheels so I don't want to rack my brains. What is the water going to be used for?

Edited November 29, 2014 by Robittybob1