Was Jesus the christ or the son of God?

[yahya515]

was Jesus the Christ or the son of God?

can Jesus be both the son of God and the Christ?

in Jewish traditions the Christ or the Messiah was mentioned as a savior, I do not know what kind of salvation he supposed to present to his believers, but when Jesus came as the son of God, he announced the salvation as salvation from sins, I do not believe any of these words, anyway Jesus can not be the son of God if he is the Christ, the son of God is in a higher rank than the Christ, if Jesus were the son of God he would be mentioned in the old testament as the son of God not as the Messiah ,the Jews were waiting a savior not the son of God, what I mean by (a higher rank) is the son of God can do what he wants , he is the son of God , he does not need to be a savior , he can forgive sins directly, and that what Jesus did to a woman in the Bible ( go and your sins are forgiven!!), so the Christ who the Jewish are waiting for and the Muslims believe in is not a son of God , he is a person who will save people, in Islam Jesus came to give the Jewish permission for some forbidden things , give them permission to leave some of Moses laws, is this kind of salvation ? perhaps.

[ajb]

I am at a loss as to how you could hope to get a proper answer to your questions?

 

The same with your 'mistakes in the bible' thread. If you take the bible as the truth then he was real, the son of God and the Christ. If you do not believe the bible then you can draw other conclusions. If you believe the Quran then he was whatever that tells you he was. None of this is testable in any way and so you can debate for ever with different people.

[Robittybob1]

Could anyone become a son of God? Could you become a son of God? Could you become the Christ?

IMO there is no reason in my mind why someone who is the son of Joseph and Mary could not become both the Christ and the Son of God. They are titles bestowed on a person, nothing to do with parentage.

[ajb]

They are titles bestowed on a person, nothing to do with parentage.

But does not the bible state that Jesus was literally the son of God? I recall that Jesus referred to God as his farther and not Joseph. Also there is the whole virgin birth thing.

[Strange]

This question has been at the heart of theological disputes and some of the biggest heretical movements throughout Christian history (Adoptionism, Apollinarism, Arianism, Docetism, Luciferians, Marcionism, Monophysitism, Monothelitism, Patripassianism, Psilanthropism, Sabellianism, ... to name but a few).

 

Which suggests there is no single answer. People have interpreted the texts as saying everything from Jesus was purely human, to human but with divine spirit, to divine with human nature, to fully divine and every variation and combination in between.

[Robittybob1]

But does not the bible state that Jesus was literally the son of God? I recall that Jesus referred to God as his farther and not Joseph. Also there is the whole virgin birth thing.

The way I look at it is, if The Ten Commandments say "Thou shalt not commit adultery" that rule applies to gods as well. With Mary betrothed to Joseph he was the only lawful father of Jesus

To be the Messiah he had to be a male from the male lineage of King David which has to come via Joseph (for he was of the House of David).

The virgin birth thing is just a matter of circumstance, coincidence and rare events. There are lots of ways that that could be arranged.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Robittybob1

[Ten oz]

The way I look at it is, if The Ten Commandments say "Thou shalt not commit adultery" that rule applies to gods as well. With Mary betrothed to Joseph he was the only lawful father of Jesus

To be the Messiah he had to be a male from the male lineage of King David which has to come via Joseph (for he was of the House of David).

The virgin birth thing is just a matter of circumstance, coincidence and rare events. There are lots of ways that that could be arranged.

God coming to earth in human form or seeding human life via miraculous conception is a common theme is many different religions. Whether we are talking about Krishna or Hercules the idea of God as the father or incarnation of a person claiming importance has a long tradition. It seems far more likely to me that to story of Mary's virgin pregnancy was made up than it was a means to account for a rare biological event.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births#Egyptian_mythology

[yahya515]

Could anyone become a son of God? Could you become a son of God? Could you become the Christ?

 

 

I can't be the son of God neither the Christ, Jesus had only one divine feature that he was able to give life Qur'an declares that Jesus gave life by God permission and he is not the son of God because he eats and drinks and I see this as a logical reason because food gives life if you do not eat you won't survive any more so he needed food to remain alive and he was not able to give life to himself without food, and food was created by God , so God gives life to Jesus as God gives life to other humans, so God created Jesus as Qur'an states and not begot him as a son.

[Robittybob1]

I can't be the son of God neither the Christ, Jesus had only one divine feature that he was able to give life Qur'an declares that Jesus gave life by God permission and he is not the son of God because he eats and drinks and I see this as a logical reason because food gives life if you do not eat you won't survive any more so he needed food to remain alive and he was not able to give life to himself without food, and food was created by God , so God gives life to Jesus as God gives life to other humans, so God created Jesus as Qur'an states and not begot him as a son.

Fair enough. Jesus needed food to live as we do. As you say God made (created) Jesus, so God could make (create) you a Christ too. They say all things are possible to God, so you can't say that is impossible. Once you become a Christ you could give life too. I know it sounds impossible but the logic is there. It is the difficulty of doing this, not that anything is too hard, but it is your cooperation that is needed too. We aren't programmable robots.

I don't think Jesus was either. I'm sure he had to learn like we do.

You make it sound like Jesus was a programmed robot doing exactly as he was programmed to do.

[yahya515]

I am at a loss as to how you could hope to get a proper answer to your questions?The same with your 'mistakes in the bible' thread. If you take the bible as the truth then he was real, the son of God and the Christ. If you do not believe the bible then you can draw other conclusions. If you believe the Quran then he was whatever that tells you he was. None of this is testable in any way and so you can debate for ever with different people.

I think logic is applied to religion as it is applied to physics , Moses , Jesus and Mohammed gave logical reasons why a person shouldn't commit adultery , steal etc , miraculous things do not seem logical but God who gave miracles to his prophets created things that are greater than miracles, the sun , the stars and life itself, I think miraculous things are also logical.

Fair enough. Jesus needed food to live as we do. As you say God made (created) Jesus, so God could make (create) you a Christ too.

No I meant God created Jesus as other creations of his, he did not take him as a son, Jesus is not equal to God , however God is greater than him and Allah is Jesus's God and not his father , that what I mean.

[Acme]

An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish: A Hilarious Catalogue of Organized and Individual Stupidity

 

 

...It is odd that modern men who are aware of what science has done in the way of bringing new knowledge and altering the conditions of social life. should still be willing to accept the authority of texts embodying the outlook of very ancient and very ignorant pastoral or agricultural tribes. ...

[ajb]

With Mary betrothed to Joseph he was the only lawful father of Jesus

Lawful I agree, not that I know the law of that region at that time. For sure today in the UK Joseph would have to pay for Jesus until he is 18. As Jesus was born when Mary and Joseph were married Jesus would be in law Joseph's son.

 

 

But that is not the point here.

I think logic is applied to religion as it is applied to physics , Moses , Jesus and Mohammed gave logical reasons why a person shouldn't commit adultery , steal etc ...

Though I would not claim that religion is the only reason you can argue not to commit wrong doings.

 

Now are you 100% sure that Mohammed really gave reason not to commit adultery and steal? Didn't Mohammed steal his step-son's wife?

[yahya515]

Now are you 100% sure that Mohammed really gave reason not to commit adultery and steal? Didn't Mohammed steal his step-son's wife?

do you mean this verse? Qur'an " And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah ," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished."

first : Zayd was not mohammed's step-son he was his adopted son .

second: I do not believe in sunni's interpretation for Qur'an, we Quranists understand Islam and Qur'an differently , I do not believe Tabari's story about this verse, nobody will steal garbage from streets!! ".....so when Zayd had no longer any need for her, we married her to you....)

I think this verse means:

Mohammed adopted son Zayd wanted to divorce his wife because(he did not have any need for her) then Mohammed thought : it would be a good thing to marry her when he leaves her, so he told Zayd (keep your wife) because although he liked his wife he wanted him to do the right thing . so when Zayd finally divorced his wife Mohammed married her.

[Robittybob1]

Lawful I agree, not that I know the law of that region at that time. For sure today in the UK Joseph would have to pay for Jesus until he is 18. As Jesus was born when Mary and Joseph were married Jesus would be in law Joseph's son.

 

 

But that is not the point here.

 

Though I would not claim that religion is the only reason you can argue not to commit wrong doings.

 

Now are you 100% sure that Mohammed really gave reason not to commit adultery and steal? Didn't Mohammed steal his step-son's wife?

Today the father being under attention would ask for a DNA test to prove that he really was the paternal parent. I'm sure Joseph would have asked for the same in the case of Mary had it been available.

[Sensei]

I do not know what kind of salvation he supposed to present to his believers,

That's whole problem with non-Christian debater..

According to Old Bible Adam and Eve committed sin taking apple from tree of knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_the_knowledge_of_good_and_evil

 

Salvation was from sins caused by this event and further.

 

Your sin is to start talking about religion, instead of what you started from on this forum i.e. talking about (my beloved) science..

 

Experiments we can repeat at least, confirm or disprove observation, explain it to you, while religious discussion is such a waste of time...

 

but when Jesus came as the son of God, he announced the salvation as salvation from sins, I do not believe any of these words,

Don't you want your sins to be forgiven?

 

Close your eyes at night, and repeat after me "all people of the world, I forgive your sins".

Repeat it hundred times, or thousand times, until you will feel relief (it's surprising when it comes). It's even easier to sleep..

Become Jesus for a while and forgive your enemies. It's very hard to forgive people who made something bad to us, made us upset, attacked us etc., really.

 

anyway Jesus can not be the son of God if he is the Christ, the son of God is in a higher rank than the Christ, if Jesus were the son of God he would be mentioned in the old testament as the son of God not as the Messiah ,the Jews were waiting a savior not the son of God, what I mean by (a higher rank) is the son of God can do what he wants , he is the son of God , he does not need to be a savior , he can forgive sins directly, and that what Jesus did to a woman in the Bible ( go and your sins are forgiven!!), so the Christ who the Jewish are waiting for and the Muslims believe in is not a son of God , he is a person who will save people, in Islam Jesus came to give the Jewish permission for some forbidden things , give them permission to leave some of Moses laws, is this kind of salvation ? perhaps.

You're interpreting it using Quran, so I doubt you will ever understand it...

 

What if God is whole Universe, whole energy, then everybody on this world can call himself "son/daughter of God". Everybody can also say "I am God" (tiny tiny part of it), as everything is energy=God..

At pray we say about dead people to join with God. But what if we're already joined whole life and never noticed it.. ?

 

Forgiving people- somebody who was attacked, badly treated, suffered harm wants to revenge. This is destructive either to victim and world.

Jesus says about forgiving people.

Jesus says about not making bad things.

Jesus says about making good deeds.

Making harm to some human, or animal, or other living organism, is like making harm to somebody from your own family, as we're one big family from the same original DNA made in oceans billions years ago.

 

Old testament was very picky about "you shall not have any other God besides me", so anybody who would call himself "son of God" etc. would be instantly executed for blasphemy.

 

in Islam Jesus came to give the Jewish permission for some forbidden things , give them permission to leave some of Moses laws, is this kind of salvation ? perhaps.

Plain wrong.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Sensei

[Robittybob1]

.....

Close your eyes at night, and repeat after me "all people of the world, I forgive your sins".

Repeat it hundred times, or thousand times, until you will feel relief (it's surprising when it comes). It's even easier to sleep..

Become Jesus for a while and forgive your enemies. It's very hard to forgive people who made something bad to us, made us upset, attacked us etc., really.

....

 

 

Interesting idea. Would that mean we never set out do deal with our enemies for they were forgiven the day before?

[yahya515]

That's whole problem with non-Christian debater..

According to Old Bible Adam and Eve committed sin taking apple from tree of knowledge.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_the_knowledge_of_good_and_evil

Salvation was from sins caused by this event and further.

 

 

 

 

God punished Adam and Eve by removing them from garden of Eden, if a judge punishes a criminal by for instance 15 years of prison , will he come after that to judge the criminal again!! so why does your evil God (sorry because God in Christianity is love!!) remeber such thing!!!

 

 

 

 

 

You're interpreting it using Quran, so I doubt you will ever understand it...

What if God is whole Universe, whole energy, then everybody on this world can call himself "son/daughter of God". Everybody can also say "I am God" (tiny tiny part of it), as everything is energy=God..

At pray we say about dead people to join with God. But what if we're already joined whole life and never noticed it.. ?

.

you do not need to twist facts, do not shy just say it I am the son or daughter of God!! also if God=energy or the universe it means insects are sons of God also human shi... is also part of God!!

 

 

Don't you want your sins to be forgiven?

 

Yes, but I'll do something more practical!!

[Sensei]

Interesting idea. Would that mean we never set out do deal with our enemies for they were forgiven the day before?

 

When everybody would do what I said "about making only good deeds, and not making evil deeds", you would not need it, as you would not have any enemies..

[Robittybob1]

 

When everybody would do what I said "about making only good deeds, and not making evil deeds", you would not need it, as you would not have any enemies..

Where is the proof of that? How come you had to forgive some the day before if that was the case?

[Ophiolite]

Proof is not required. It is self evident and implicit that if everyone does only good deeds then no one would be your enemy.

[yahya515]

When everybody would do what I said "about making only good deeds, and not making evil deeds", you would not need it, as you would not have any enemies..

you will not consider people as your enemies but some people will consider you as their enemy, as I said this is not a practical way of dealing with your enemies, the defence strategy is not just in animals but also in humans , if you do not defend yourself you will not survive , only Jesus will survive because he is the son of G..... and he does not need to defend himself!! so I recommended you not to try to be Jesus , because Jesus according to Gospels is imaginary ! you will be like a child trying to copy superman and he falls!! if a person has good deeds and forgives other people that will be OK, but the author of the Gospels exaggerates much more and this is a general mistake of the Bible, it is like:

look !your God himself has left great heaven to come to bad earth , he suffered a lot of pain , his teachings testify for that he is more than good, if a person strikes you on cheek turn to him the other one, etc.

[Sensei]

you will not consider people as your enemies but some people will consider you as their enemy,

Why someone would like to think about me as an enemy when I didn't do anything bad to him/her?

 

as I said this is not a practical way of dealing with your enemies,

I don't have (alive) enemies..

 

if a person has good deeds and forgives other people that will be OK, but the author of the Gospels exaggerates much more and this is a general mistake of the Bible, it is like:

look !your God himself has left great heaven to come to bad earth , he suffered a lot of pain , his teachings testify for that he is more than good, if a person strikes you on cheek turn to him the other one, etc.

Do you find it "mistake"? It's whole message.. That's whole essence..

Edited December 2, 2014 by Sensei

[yahya515]

Why someone would like to think about me as an enemy when I didn't do anything bad to him/her?

it is not necessary you do bad things to people, for instance imagine that you traveled to an Islamic country where there are those people who think they serve God by killing unbelievers they consider you as an enemy whether for your religion or your country's policy. also a person may consider you as an enemy because he or she is jealous of you since you won a competition , etc.

Do you find it "mistake"? It's whole message.. That's whole essence..

I said a general mistake the author of the book tries to emphasize that Jesus is divine by describing him as he is in the Gospels so he invented an imaginary character and that is the mistake.

[ajb]

I said a general mistake the author(s) of the book tries to emphasize that Jesus is divine by describing him as he is in the Gospels so he invented an imaginary character and that is the mistake.

You have found the big, but intentional error in the new testament. Well done.

[Robittybob1]

You have found the big, but intentional error in the new testament. Well done.

Who's intention was that?