I'd put my hand in a beaker of mercury...

[Acme]

He asked what the sensation would be like. I guess your right though. I've played with mercury though, and it does feel kind of wet if its cold.

Not that I was recommending the practice of course. GurBBLe w pmwinderk bahhh.

Certainly the sensation of putting my naked digit in a beaker of the stuff was one of it being in a liquid, however there was no urge to dry my finger off when I withdrew it as there has been with water or other liquids that I have stuck my finger in. The concave meniscus round my digit in the mercury was pronounced I might add.

[StringJunky]

... The concave meniscus round my digit in the mercury was pronounced I might add.

You got it the wrong way round, it's convex because the mercury is not preferentially attracted to other surfaces. The meniscus doesn't 'climb up' a container. If it it did the mercury would 'wet' your fingers.

[Acme]

You got it the wrong way round, it's convex because the mercury is not preferentially attracted to other surfaces. The meniscus doesn't 'climb up' a container. If it it did the mercury would 'wet' your fingers.

Whose finger was it!? Never minding that my finger did not contain the mercury, you are correct in that the mercury did not climb up my finger but rather was depressed around it.

 

By-the-by, while I have you on the line have you found a reference yet supporting your assertion that felt-hat wearers of old suffered mercury poisoning?

[StringJunky]

I couldn't follow your NCBI link and so I left it.

[Acme]

I couldn't follow your NCBI link and so I left it.

I don't understand. What link are you referring to?

[John Cuthber]

http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/19382700038.html;jsessionid=218BA297826809A62A8D155192E39785

[Acme]

thnx

... No symptoms were found among carrotters who are in contact with nitrate of mercury in solution; hence this salt does not seem able to penetrate the skin.

[StringJunky]

 

No symptoms were found among carrotters who are in contact with nitrate of mercury in solution; hence this salt does not seem able to penetrate the skin.

 

 

 

These brief remarks have been made as a preface to a discussion of the two later major studies of mercurialism in the felt-hat industry conducted by the U.S. Public Health Service during the 1930's. Because of their scope, these two studies have been widely quoted and, unfortunately, often misquoted. Some of the findings are difficult to understand and, in the light of more recent knowledge, difficult to accept (Goldwater 1964).

One anomalous finding in the Public Health Service study in the hatters' fur-cutting industry is the relative infrequency with which mercury was found in the urine of exposed workers. The levels of exposure, 0.06 - 0.72 mg per cubic meter of air, were such that all would have been expected to have mercury in the urine. Yet, according to the tables in the text, only 35 percent of urine specimens from 488 workers had detectable quantities of mercury. Lack of sensitivity of the analytical method employed is the most reasonable explanation for the anomalous results. (The summary of the report states that 65 percent of the specimens contained mercury.) More difficult to explain or understand is that of 33 active workers diagnosed as having mercurialism, 19 showed no mercury in the urine.

http://www.occhealthnews.net/hatters.htm

 

[Acme]

 

These brief remarks have been made as a preface to a discussion of the two later major studies of mercurialism in the felt-hat industry conducted by the U.S. Public Health Service during the 1930's. Because of their scope, these two studies have been widely quoted and, unfortunately, often misquoted. Some of the findings are difficult to understand and, in the light of more recent knowledge, difficult to accept (Goldwater 1964).

 

One anomalous finding in the Public Health Service study in the hatters' fur-cutting industry is the relative infrequency with which mercury was found in the urine of exposed workers. The levels of exposure, 0.06 - 0.72 mg per cubic meter of air, were such that all would have been expected to have mercury in the urine. Yet, according to the tables in the text, only 35 percent of urine specimens from 488 workers had detectable quantities of mercury. Lack of sensitivity of the analytical method employed is the most reasonable explanation for the anomalous results. (The summary of the report states that 65 percent of the specimens contained mercury.) More difficult to explain or understand is that of 33 active workers diagnosed as having mercurialism, 19 showed no mercury in the urine.

 

http://www.occhealth...net/hatters.htm

 

And what remarks prefaced that?

On December 2, 1955 the New York Times ran a full-column story, with a dateline from Danbury, Connecticut and headlines: "600 Hatters Mark 1941 Nitrate Ban." The story notes that "The occasion was the 14th anniversary of the outlawing of the use of nitrate of mercury in the hat industry." This notable event had come to pass since "On December 1, 1941, the United States Public Health Service brought an end to mercury's use by hat manufacturers in 26 states through mutual agreements." Credit for this achievement was claimed in whole or in part by the Public Health Service, the hat manufacturers, and the secretary-treasurer of the local union of United Hatters, Cap and Millinery Workers. Cynics have suggested that credit for this "triumph" should be attributed to a war-time shortage of mercury. For close to a century prior to 1955, the ravages of mercurialism among hatters had been known and tolerated in the United States.

First among the major studies of mercury poisoning in the American felt-hat industry was that made by Dr. J. A. Freeman of New Jersey and reported in 1860. Freeman's findings were confirmed in a report published by the Board of Health of the State of New Jersey in 1878 (Dennis). In 1910, under the aegis of the Women's Welfare Department of the New York and New Jersey section of the National Civic Federation, Mrs. Lindon W. Bates, assisted by Miss Florence Roehm, undertook a survey of industrial mercury poisoning in the New York metropolitan area. The results were published in 1912 (Bates). Dozens of cases of severe mercurialism were found among hatters, a state of affairs which was confirmed by the New York City Department of Health in 1915 (Harris).

 

Additional reports on the health of hatters appeared during the 1920's, notably those of Alice Hamilton (1922a, 1922b), Wade Wright (1922) and the United States Public Health Service (Neal et al. 1937, 1941). The last are of particular significance.

 

Just as it is unfair for modern scientists to scoff at Pliny or at the alchemists because much of what was written many years ago now seems to be nonsense, so is it inappropriate to apply present-day standards to some of the studies made as recently as 30 or 40 years ago. This is especially true when analytical chemistry is involved. So dramatic have been the refinements in micro-chemical techniques, that work which is much more than 10 years old may have to be viewed as belonging to an earlier age.

Thnx. However, that bit challenges the studies on workers and says nothing about how the mercury gets in the body. You claimed wearers of felt hats absorbed mercury into their heads [and went mad] and that is what I would like to see evidence for.

 

Also from your article, a bit supporting my contention that the Hatter in Wonderland was not meant to be one who made hats, but just one who was mad.

... Another interesting point made by Gardner has to do with the appearance of the Hatter in Tenniel's drawings in Carroll's book. He rejects what he says was a common belief at the time that the Hatter was a burlesque of Prime Minister Gladstone. Rather, he says, "There is good reason to believe that Tenniel adopted a suggestion of Carroll's that he draw the Hatter to resemble one Theophilus Carter, a furniture dealer near Oxford..." who was known in the area as the Mad Hatter. He was so designed because he always wore a top hat and partly because of his eccentric ideas and behavior. He invented an alarm clock bed which awakened the sleeper by tossing him to the floor and which was exhibited at the Crystal Palace in 1851. This may have had something to do with the Hatter's preoccupation with time and with his concern over the dormouse's somnolence.

Confirmation of the theory that Lewis Carroll's "Mad Hatter" was not a victim of mercury poisoning is found in views expressed by a Director of Associated British Hat Manufacturers Limited (who wishes to remain anonymous). Among the credentials which enable this gentleman to speak with authority are the fact that his father's family have been making hats continuously since 1773 and his mother's since about 1660. His discussion of the subject of felting clearly shows that he has done considerable research into the historical aspects.

He points out, in consonance with Gardner's statement that the expression "mad as a hatter" was in common use in England during the middle of the 19th century, that the expression appears in Chapter 10 of Thackerah's Pendennis, which was published in 1850. Thackrah's failure to note the use of mercury nitrate in the hat industry supports the fact that it was not being used in 1830. It was not until the middle of the 1840's that the felt-hat industry as it is known today, with its use of mercury nitrate, was founded ...

[StringJunky]

I can't find any scientific evidence, only anecdotal. MSDS sheets say that it may be absorbed through the skin is about as good as i can come up with.

 

 

Skin: Causes skin burns. May be absorbed through the skin in harmful amounts.

http://www.labchem.com/tools/msds/msds/75496.pdf

 

Possibly, more would have been ingested from handling the hats as one went about ones day. I can picture people fiddling with their hats, doffing their hats etc then transferring the mercury to their mouths via putting pipes in there mouth, handling/eating food etc.

 

Yes, the association with Lewis Carroll's character doesn't seem to bear out on closer inspection.

[Acme]

I can't find any scientific evidence, only anecdotal. MSDS sheets say that it may be absorbed through the skin is about as good as i can come up with.

 

 

Possibly, more would have been ingested from handling the hats as one went about ones day. I can picture people fiddling with their hats, doffing their hats etc then transferring the mercury to their mouths via putting pipes in there mouth, handling/eating food etc.

 

Yes, the association with Lewis Carroll's character doesn't seem to bear out on closer inspection.

Thnx again. Notably the effects of skin contact on that sheet do not include 'madness'.

[StringJunky]

'Madness' is a colloquial term. I doubt it's usage would be found in technical literature in a formal manner..

[Acme]

'Madness' is a colloquial term. I doubt it's usage would be found in technical literature in a formal manner..

Colloquial yes, but the term is in technical literature as in 'mad hatter's disease'. But you are right insomuch as the term does not describe the symptoms characteristic to mad hatters. The psychological/neurological symptoms are not listed in your link on skin exposure to mercury nor exhibited by Carroll's hatter. Again from the Wiki page:

Mad hatter disease/mad hatter syndrome

...

Effects of chronic occupational exposure to mercury, such as that commonly experienced by affected hatters, include mental confusion, emotional disturbances, and muscular weakness.[14] Severe neurological damage and kidney damage can also occur.[4] Neurological effects include Korsakoff's dementia and erethism (the set of neurological symptoms characteristically associated with mercury poisoning). Signs and symptoms can include red fingers, red toes, red cheeks, sweating, loss of hearing, bleeding from the ears and mouth, loss of appendages such as teeth, hair, and nails, lack of coordination, poor memory, shyness, insomnia, nervousness, tremors, and dizziness.[4] A survey of exposed U.S. hatters revealed predominantly neurological symptomatology, including intention tremor.[7] After chronic exposure to the mercury vapours, hatters tended to develop characteristic psychological traits, such as pathological shyness and marked irritability (box).[2] Such manifestations among hatters prompted several popular names for erethism, including "mad hatter disease",[14] "mad hatter syndrome",[15][16] "hatter's shakes" and "Danbury shakes". ...

Carroll's hatter exhibits none of these symptoms, rather he is just eccentric. Moreover, his arguments are actually based in logic and only appear to be nonsense in the context of the story as one for children. Besides being an author, Dodgson cum Carroll was a mathematician and logician (as well as one of the earliest photographers).

Alice's Adventures in Wionderland

... In chapter 7, "A Mad Tea-Party", the March Hare, the Hatter, and the Dormouse give several examples in which the semantic value of a sentence A is not the same value of the converse of A (for example, "Why, you might just as well say that 'I see what I eat' is the same thing as 'I eat what I see'!"); in logic and mathematics, this is discussing an inverse relationship. ...

[StringJunky]

 

Histopathological effects of mercury in skin-lightening cream.

 

Abstract

Rose skin-lightening cream with a mercury content of 77,513 +/- 71,063 ppm was selected and applied on mice for a period of 1 month at different intervals. Mercury levels were measured in a total of 58 liver, kidney, and brain tissue samples by atomic absorption spectrophotometer coupled to vapor generator accessory. The mean mercury concentration in the tissues of treated mice was 67,472 +/- 70,181 microg/g in the range of 0.391-288.759 microg/g. Looking at the mercury concentration in the tissue samples with respect to the application of skin lightening creams at different intervals, the highest mercury concentrations were found in the tissues of mice treated 3 times a day (116.806 +/- 83.182 microg/g, ranges 5.989-288.759 microg/g). On the other hand, the lowest mercury concentrations were found in the tissues of mice treated once a week (16.450 +/- 26.168 microg/g, ranges 0.391-95.642 microg/g). Histopathological changes were clearly seen in the brain, kidney, and liver sections of all treated mice. The severity of pathological changes observed in tissues increased with increasing the number of applications. It is evident that repeated application of Rose skin-lightening creams could induce permanent damage to the kidneys, brain, and liver. This study emphasizes the potential toxicity of mercury skin-lighting creams and the importance of discontinuing their manufacture and use.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14669908

[Acme]

 

Histopathological effects of mercury in skin-lightening cream.

 

Abstract

 

Rose skin-lightening cream with a mercury content of 77,513 +/- 71,063 ppm was selected and applied on mice for a period of 1 month at different intervals. Mercury levels were measured in a total of 58 liver, kidney, and brain tissue samples by atomic absorption spectrophotometer coupled to vapor generator accessory. The mean mercury concentration in the tissues of treated mice was 67,472 +/- 70,181 microg/g in the range of 0.391-288.759 microg/g. Looking at the mercury concentration in the tissue samples with respect to the application of skin lightening creams at different intervals, the highest mercury concentrations were found in the tissues of mice treated 3 times a day (116.806 +/- 83.182 microg/g, ranges 5.989-288.759 microg/g). On the other hand, the lowest mercury concentrations were found in the tissues of mice treated once a week (16.450 +/- 26.168 microg/g, ranges 0.391-95.642 microg/g). Histopathological changes were clearly seen in the brain, kidney, and liver sections of all treated mice. The severity of pathological changes observed in tissues increased with increasing the number of applications. It is evident that repeated application of Rose skin-lightening creams could induce permanent damage to the kidneys, brain, and liver. This study emphasizes the potential toxicity of mercury skin-lighting creams and the importance of discontinuing their manufacture and use.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14669908

 

OK. Is that mercury in the form of mercury nitrate? [it's not clear in the quote and I'm no chemist.] Then too, did those mice exhibit any of the neurological symptoms that I just bolded from the Wiki page? IOW, did they go mad?

[John Cuthber]

It's important to note that inorganic mercury salts like the nitrate will have a different distribution in the body from the vapour.

The mercury vapour will (IIRC) penetrate into the brain much more effectively.

[Altered State]

What avout this guy?

 

 

 

Certainly, the concern about metallic mercury is its vapour.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Altered State