Logic and god

[DevilSolution]

I'll start with the premise that we as humans only make sense of the world using logic, id go further and say that i define our fundamental ability to deduct logic gives rise to higher intelligence and possibly even consciousness itself.

 

Given this premise, everything we consciously believe/percieve can be mapped logically. Therefor could the ability for us to conceive of "something from nothing" be impossible?

 

If the above statement is true then god simply isnt logical. But is logic all there is? considering "something must have come from nothing".

 

This isnt a very articulate explanation so i can expand or re-word it if it doesnt make sense.

 

Regards.

[Phi for All]

I think it doesn't make sense because of a bad definition of "logic". Most people's definition of logic these days is, "An analysis that makes sense to me". That's not really logic, that's more like confirmation bias. Logic is more math-based. I think you really mean reason, or rational thinking.

 

And I think you'll probably find that rational thought and reason are products of a high intelligence, not the other way around. I think it's our capacity for intelligence that lets us reason things through.

[DevilSolution]

I refer to pure logic, blue is NOT red, i am NOT you, blue AND red make purple....etc

 

"something cant come from nothing" = true?

0 != 1

 

therefor "something came from nothing" = false?

1 == 0

 

thus, existence is illogical?

 

Also math is more logic based than logic being more math based.

Edited December 12, 2014 by DevilSolution

[Vexen]

I don't understand the grammar of your question. Why would you say that god is illogical? Could you explain further?

 

Certain physicists have postulated that something can come from nothing.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Vexen

[DevilSolution]

I don't understand the grammar of your question.

 

Why would you say that god is illogical?

 

Certain physicists have postulated that someone can come from nothing.

 

post 3 expresses the question in a purer form.

 

Im trying to express that logic is self falsifying or given that humans primary tool for evidence is logic, something can and does exist outside of logic that we cant conceive of (or prove).

Edited December 12, 2014 by DevilSolution

[Vexen]

I don't get the math.

[DevilSolution]

I don't get the math.

 

(1 does not equal 0) & (Something can not come from nothing) are both true

 

Get it?

 

1 does equal 0 means something came from nothing, which is logically false.

 

Hence we do exist and logic itself is false.

 

Were inside a box made from logic, everything that can, will and does exist can be expressed logically, except ourselves, or existence in a more existential sense.

Its a bit fuzzy.

Edited December 12, 2014 by DevilSolution

[Vexen]

Got it.

 

However, some people have postulated that a universe can come from nothing (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Universe_from_Nothing). So, your premise may be wrong.

[Strange]

There are multiple problems with this. If you find that a logical argument returns a false or contradictory results, then there are two possibilities. One is that the logic is not well formed (valid) the other may be that the premises are incorrect (soundness).

 

You appear to suffer from both these flaws. For example:

 

1 does equal 0 means something came from nothing, which is logically false.

 

Does not appear to be a logical argument. The premise (1 = 0) is indeed false but the consequent (something from nothing) is a non sequitur.

 

Apart from that, there is no evidence that the universe came from nothing. And, as Vexen says, there no reason to assume that something cannot come from nothing.

[DevilSolution]

Strange, if we presume 1 is something and 0 is nothing. the only premise is that at some point in time nothing existed, if not then somthing has existed forever which is nonsensicle because where did this "something" come from?

[MigL]

Here's a simple logical argument...

 

You are bigger and stronger than I am, so if I have something you want, you can simply take it from me.

That is the way most of nature works.

 

Religion/God gives us a certain morality which goes against this logic. It teaches us compassion, caring, forgiveness, etc.

Furthermore, can any of these qualities be deduced/defined by logic ?

[DevilSolution]

Sure, logically were stronger together, even the weak offer something. Doesnt go against this logic or humans would be extinct. Logically speaking everything that has or will exist is proven logically, except existence.

 

Also religious morals and my original statement regarding god and logic are seperate.

Edited December 13, 2014 by DevilSolution

[MigL]

Sorry, in nature ( excluding us ), the weak, elderly and sick are usually sacrificed to predators to protect the strong, which carry on the genes.

Do we, or rather should we ( because sometimes we do ), do that ?

Or do we have moral obligations to be compassionate and care for the sick and needy ?

[Willie71]

(1 does not equal 0) & (Something can not come from nothing) are both true

 

Get it?

 

1 does equal 0 means something came from nothing, which is logically false.

 

Hence we do exist and logic itself is false.

 

Were inside a box made from logic, everything that can, will and does exist can be expressed logically, except ourselves, or existence in a more existential sense.

Its a bit fuzzy.

Read Lawrence Krauss's book. It does a great job explaining the incorrectness of your statements.

[DevilSolution]

Read Lawrence Krauss's book. It does a great job explaining the incorrectness of your statements.

 

Could you not point them out? save me reading a whole book for something trivial.

[Vexen]

The sense in which it has been proved that math isn't logic is (to put things as briefly as possible) this: You can't program a computer to spit out all and only the truths of number theory.

[swansont]

I'll start with the premise that we as humans only make sense of the world using logic, id go further and say that i define our fundamental ability to deduct logic gives rise to higher intelligence and possibly even consciousness itself.

 

Given this premise, everything we consciously believe/percieve can be mapped logically. Therefor could the ability for us to conceive of "something from nothing" be impossible?

 

If the above statement is true then god simply isnt logical. But is logic all there is? considering "something must have come from nothing".

 

This isnt a very articulate explanation so i can expand or re-word it if it doesnt make sense.

 

Regards.

 

I agree with Phi — unless you are including incorrect and/or flawed logic, there is no way your premise is valid. Some people "make sense of the world" with intuition, superstition, religion, etc., none of which are based in proper logic.

[Strange]

Strange, if we presume 1 is something and 0 is nothing.

 

If. But there is no reason to make such a connection. That's my point: your entire argument is based on a poor, possibly false, analogy.

 

the only premise is that at some point in time nothing existed

 

And there is no evidence for that so why accept it as a premise.

 

if not then somthing has existed forever which is nonsensicle because where did this "something" come from?

 

Why did it have to come from anywhere? If it has always existed, then it didn't come from nothing or elsewhere, by definition. Your claim that this is "nonsensicle" (sic) appears to be an argument from incredulity.

The sense in which it has been proved that math isn't logic is (to put things as briefly as possible) this: You can't program a computer to spit out all and only the truths of number theory.

 

You seem to be confusing logic and correctness. You can program a computer to spit out all theorems of number theory. That is because math is purely logical. However, not all the theorems that are logically well-formed can be proved true (by a computer or by us).

[Ten oz]

 

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

- Epicurus

[Willie71]

Could you not point them out? save me reading a whole book for something trivial.

To summarize the theoretical physics required to explain how something comes from nothing, based on a century or more of previous discovery and confirmation expriments, would take a book length post.

 

http://books.google.ca/books/about/A_Universe_from_Nothing.html?id=nfGlsiDGbxkC&redir_esc=y

 

A brief summary:

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Universe_from_Nothing

 

There are youtube videos as well.

[imatfaal]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

- Epicurus

 

I love that aphorism - it seems that it isn't or might not be Epicurus. It always seemed a bit of Christian understanding of single omnipotent God rather than a 3rd C BCE Greek who would have been working within a system in which the Gods were not thought to be omnipotent, often acknowledged as malevolent, and the true role-models were the Heroes of epic poems.

 

A propos of nothing - Epicurus came from a small island you can drive across in a hour or so which I visited last year; also born there were Aristarchus and Pythagoras. That's a pretty amazing trio

[Ophiolite]

since the OP premise is that humans think logically, is false, then everything that follows from that premise is, at best, unreliable.

[DevilSolution]

since the OP premise is that humans think logically, is false, then everything that follows from that premise is, at best, unreliable.

 

Your confusing pure logic with probable logic, if you had chose between your family dieing or 1000 people then probable logic would say save the thousand, pure logic would say either outcome is true, there is no false. I also said logic is our primary tool for intellect.

 

We make sense of the world and adapt it using logic through the means of science, maths and engineering.

 

Show me an example of something completely illogical humans do/done. logic and nature work in the same vane, nothing humans do is actually unnatural because we are a product of nature, in the same way nothing we do is illogical because logic dictates the laws of nature.

Edited December 17, 2014 by DevilSolution

[Ophiolite]

 

Your confusing pure logic with probable logic,

Since I have never heard of probable logic I cannot be confusing it with pure logic. Please define probable logic, then explain why you did not make clear in your OP that when you spoke of logic you were not speaking of the logic used and acknowledged by millions of scientists and engineers.

 

 

if you had chose between your family dieing or 1000 people then probable logic would say save the thousand, pure logic would say either outcome is true, there is no false. I also said logic is our primary tool for intellect.

Nonsense. You have failed to supply sufficient information upon which a logical decision could be made. Perhaps that's what you are trying to convey by saying neither outcome is true.

 

Your opening statement was "I'll start with the premise that we as humans only make sense of the world using logic." Since a large proportion of the world's population follow mutually contradictory religions, or believe in astrology, ghosts, UFOs, conspiracy theories and the like, then your premise is clearly wrong.

 

We make sense of the world and adapt it using logic through the means of science, maths and engineering.

Some of us do, some of the time. Those caveats change the meaning utterly from your absolute.

 

Show me an example of something completely illogical humans do/done.

1. They buy lottery tickets.

2. They make decisions based on their horoscopes.

 

Many, in some cases arguably most, day to day decisions arise out of reactions to circumstances that are guided by instinct and not logic. In many cases such decisions are exactly counter to what would be dictated by logic.

 

logic and nature work in the same vane, nothing humans do is actually unnatural because we are a product of nature, in the same way nothing we do is illogical because logic dictates the laws of nature.

Now that is a perfect example of distorted logic. We have acquired instincts and behavior patterns that, on balance, produced satisfactory results when confronted with particular situations. But those instincts and behaviours were acquired when there were only a few million of us on the planet and we lived in tribes of around one hundred people. Those same instincts and behaviours are now responsible for most of the violence and wars that we endure. That is wholly illogical.

[DevilSolution]

Since I have never heard of probable logic I cannot be confusing it with pure logic. Please define probable logic, then explain why you did not make clear in your OP that when you spoke of logic you were not speaking of the logic used and acknowledged by millions of scientists and engineers.

 

 

Nonsense. You have failed to supply sufficient information upon which a logical decision could be made. Perhaps that's what you are trying to convey by saying neither outcome is true.

 

Your opening statement was "I'll start with the premise that we as humans only make sense of the world using logic." Since a large proportion of the world's population follow mutually contradictory religions, or believe in astrology, ghosts, UFOs, conspiracy theories and the like, then your premise is clearly wrong.

 

Some of us do, some of the time. Those caveats change the meaning utterly from your absolute.

 

1. They buy lottery tickets.

2. They make decisions based on their horoscopes.

 

Many, in some cases arguably most, day to day decisions arise out of reactions to circumstances that are guided by instinct and not logic. In many cases such decisions are exactly counter to what would be dictated by logic.

 

Now that is a perfect example of distorted logic. We have acquired instincts and behavior patterns that, on balance, produced satisfactory results when confronted with particular situations. But those instincts and behaviours were acquired when there were only a few million of us on the planet and we lived in tribes of around one hundred people. Those same instincts and behaviours are now responsible for most of the violence and wars that we endure. That is wholly illogical.

 

Nothing illogical exists, probable logic is fuzzy logic, looking at a situation subjectively and applying a given law to it.....

 

Subjectively you perceive a situation with your own logic or goals, be it personal, humanity, earth or existential, they are all subjective to you. Objectively speaking everything thats logically possible can happen, even if you perceive it subectly as illogical it ony existed because it logically could which makes it logical.

 

Your completely missing the point, if all cereal are made of food, it doesnt matter if you put milk with them, they are still food....

 

and again i iterate the point that my original premise wasnt "humans think logically", it was "logic is the primary tool forintellect" (and possibly consciousness).....

 

also im on a mbile device so its harder to para phrase you.

 

as a little side note, considering the probability of your existence is infidecimally small, playing the lottery is actually rather logical.

 

I agree with Phi — unless you are including incorrect and/or flawed logic, there is no way your premise is valid. Some people "make sense of the world" with intuition, superstition, religion, etc., none of which are based in proper logic.

 

If you coud write or create a circuit of logc that defined everything in the universe (in a single expression), then the mere existence of religion, superstition etc within our universe and hence the expression mean they are logical. (self defined if you wish)

 

As far as theoretical physicists proving something can come from nothing, wheres the proof? id very much like to meet these creators.

Edited December 17, 2014 by DevilSolution