Psychoactive Substances and the Meaning of Life

[Vexen]

I would like us to outline the effects of psychoactive substances (legal and illegal) have on society and individuals, postulating whether the benefits outweigh the cost.

 

Day to day one seeks happiness or some derivative of it in the form of love, music, socializing, sport, entertainment, food and all other things that may stimulate the mind. However, these activities do have some risk to your health and at times to others. For example, over consumption of certain enjoyable foods such as burgers and French fries may increase your risk of cardiovascular disease. Falling in love may also be seen as incurring a risk. A person may go through emotional turmoil during and once a relationship has ended. My points is that the risk that one incurs and extends to other (society) should be balanced with the euphoria acquired by an activity.

 

In many countries it is legal to consume alcohol. This has incurred many risks to these societies including alcohol induced violence and accidental deaths. Do these damages to society outweigh the benefits they provide to individuals? The same question may be asked to other psychoactive substances.

 

What about the depressed, poor and dying? Should they allowed to induce euphoria through psychoactive substances such as cannabis?

 

The meaning to life, as I understand it, is to do what makes you happy without inhibiting another person's happiness. Psychoactive substances, in certain circumstances, may provide this.

 

(My poll pertains to whether we should have another psychoactive substance in society.)

 

Sam Harris :

(http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/drugs-and-the-meaning-of-life)

Edited December 16, 2014 by Vexen

[davidivad]

i live by a building that caters to the poor, disabled, and the elderly.

i keep up with them and volunteer under my own rule.

many of these people smoke pot which is illegal here.

i say nothing because of the fact that they would otherwise have a breakdown from no stimulus. they deserve some kind of release from staring at four walls....

i also have a friend who ingests small sub-euphoric doses of mushrooms to manage his headaches. it doesn't cure the problem but is the only solution available to him that has any effect at all.

perhaps education is a better offering then prohibition.

hey, if you want to be blitzed and its not illegal why not?

if it is illegal and you still want it get the laws changed.

i don't understand why they don't just set up a system that lets the doctors decide if you get your prescription.

not to decide if it is needed but whether or not it is severely impacting your life.

why spend umpteen millions to put people behind bars only to realize we cannot afford the officers we have let alone the cost of imprisonment.

America has a drug problem because it hasn't recognized that it is responsible for its own condition.

we blame the cartels yet we give them guns and buy their drugs.

we are directly impacting Mexico yet mad when the resulting conditions are not livable and they cross the border.

it is already established that the war is not effective.

it only makes sense to let the doctors handle health issues.

so let them get high.

when the doc sees that they are affecting others in a bad way or have an out of control habit no prescription is given.

it removes the dealers by accessibility, the patient is monitored and it costs the patient not the whole of society.

that this responsibility away from our officers and give it to the individual.

"so you want to get high? here you go. if you show signs of trouble that's it for you."

they do this with many different addictive drugs already.

 

as a young man, i once went with a few friends on a camping trip and we went Indian. it was the most unbelievable experience i had ever had.

would i do it again? nah, once was enough for me. i would never give up that one experience though.

it changed my life.

Edited December 16, 2014 by davidivad

[Ophiolite]

as a young man, i once went with a few friends on a camping trip and we went Indian. it was the most unbelievable experience i had ever had.

Was that when you lost the ability to capitalise?

[davidivad]

lol, no doubt...

I will have to give that some attention. It is just laziness on my part.

[MonDie]

Quoting the Sam Harris link.

 

 

 

the term psychedelics to differentiate certain visionary compounds, which can produce extraordinary insights

 

Can they?

[Peace]

Alan Watts is a reputable source of information on the subject, MonDie -

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=alan+watts+psychadelics

[MonDie]

He died more than 40 years ago...

[tar]

Vexen,

 

Reading the Sam Harris link, I was of the opinion that drugs are a cheat, as he guessed at one point in the article.

 

And this.

 

" As Daniel Pinchbeck pointed out in his highly entertaining book Breaking Open the Head, the fact that both the Mayans and the Aztecs used psychedelics, while being enthusiastic practitioners of human sacrifice, makes any idealistic connection between plant-based shamanism and an enlightened society seem terribly naïve. "

 

My opinion, and one not completely distillable into one of your poll selections, is that drugs that alter your normal mental states should be avoided, but should never have been made illegal, nor be put in the hands of the medical community to distribute.

 

Altering your mental state, into one you would prefer seems to be the basis of conscious life, anyway.

 

The horrors occur, I think, when one person seeks to control someone elses mental state, for their own gain.

 

As in a drug dealer. It does not matter significantly whether that dealer/user relationship is sanctioned by society or not. What matters is whether the dealer has the wellbeing of the user in mind, and the user trusts and should trust the dealer.

 

I quit smoking back in April after 47 years of regular moderate to heavy smoking. Nicotine should certainly be legal, as it makes a person feel good, in a general (cheating) way, but probabably best to withhold from a person until old enough to make such decisions. What this age should be might be hard to decide upon. I started smoking cigarettes when I was 13, tried pot and hashish a number of times when I was 17 and 18, sniffed gas a couple times (not recommended, kills brain cells quite readily,) tried mushrooms once (very interesting and pretty auras and rays around everything), tried LSD once and had a bad trip, tried it again to check on the situation had an uncomfortable situation develop again, and swore off mind altering drugs, since. Still drank and smoked, but have not done any pot, or hallucinagins, or anything since. Never tried crack or speed or coke or heroine and am not about to. Pain killers I use only a little when I really really need one, after a surgery for instance, and stop taking them as soon as the pain is bearable.

 

Even stopped drinking while in the Army in Germany in 1980, with all that good beer around, because it killed brain cells, allowed you to do stuff you wouldn't normally do, could get you into an accident or cause you to lose you license, would require a night out with your drinking buddies, which would disallow that night being spent with any girl I would meet and fall in love with and desire to marry once I returned to civilian life, and because getting drunk was not a very good role model to set for my subordinates as I was up for promotion to Spec5.

 

So in terms of your poll I would want us, as a society to keep the cheating ways to feel good away from our youth, but not be too hard on the young people that try things out, but to be very cautious and attentive when it comes to drug dealers, and people that would control other people through their need/desire for euphoria.

 

The three most important considerations, to me, in this discussion, are the ideas of control, judgement, and trust.

A person should use good judgement, be in control of their own mental state, and trust only trustworthy folk.

 

Regards, TAR

[Yoseph]

He died more than 40 years ago...

So did Einstein...

[tar]

Yoseph,

 

Really? I don't think Alan Watts and Einstein's mental experiences are of the same kind.

 

One thing I remember well and know for certain about my two LSD trials, is that the all encompassing experience I had, was not real. That is, as it turned out, once I was no longer high on the drug, the world consisted of much more than the four people in the room, and I had not indeed encompassed all time and space on my "trip". In fact, proof of this is that 7 billion other people on this Earth did not even notice I had gone and come back. Same thing with Zen masters who become one with the universe, sans the most important 8 billion minds that are locally available. Those kinds of mental "places" to go are not readily accessable to everybody else. Einstein, on the other hand explored the place we all have equal access to, and built a working model of the place, that we can all use to explore and utilize the place.

 

Big difference between the two.

 

Regards, TAR

 

One is fake based on chemical tricks and altered, mistaken senses and thoughts and feelings. The other is based solidly on reality. I would much rather be enlightened by the thoughts of Einstein, than by the thoughts of Mr. Watts.

[Vexen]

100% votes for the legalization of marijuana.

 

Why is does everyone think this?

[Prometheus]

Can they?

 

He died more than 40 years ago...

 

How does the fact someone died 40 years ago invalidate the argument that psychedelics can provide insight?

[Yoseph]

Yoseph,

 

Really? I don't think Alan Watts and Einstein's mental experiences are of the same kind.

 

Sorry, what Prometheus said below was my exact point...

 

 

How does the fact someone died 40 years ago invalidate the argument that psychedelics can provide insight?

[tar]

Yoseph,

 

Insight is an interesting word. Inside viewing.

 

My exact point, is that short circuiting the brain provides false insight. 40 years ago or yesterday, on top of a mountain or in a cave, with sensory deprevation or chemical intervention, the happiness and eurphoria acheived through drugs is not directly related to the real world. A drug addict developes an obsession of sorts and finds happiness only when high. The fake becomes the central meaning. The main goal...which is only acheived while looking in, and has nothing to do with the rest of us.

 

Mohammed talked with an angel in a cave. Really? Mushrooms connect you with great insight. Really? Reaching Nirvana is a reach inward, it has little to do with the rest of us.

 

Regards, TAR

[Yoseph]

tar,

I was merely saying that how long ago someone dies doesn't invalid their opinion on ANY subject.

 

In response to what you last said, I would make a few points.

Drugs don't "short circuit" the brain, they change the way it operates. They change what it focuses on, what it's interested in, how it perceives stimuli. I do agree that they don't provide any new logical insight into a "meaning for humanity" which seems to be what you're referring to when you're talking about "the rest of us". I would also say that there is no "meaning for humanity" unless you believe in god, so that's kind of irrelevant.

 

Supposing that "the meaning of life" is completely subjective and different for each person I'm sure psychoactive drugs can provide insight into it. For example, some people who suffer from depression believe that they lack the capacity to be happy. Mushrooms have successfully been used to treat some of these people by giving them hope and seeing the world from another perspective. Read more about that here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin_mushroom#As_medicine). Marajuana can do similar things, as well as being effective pain relief and motivator (in small amounts). You only have to look towards the Arts if you want examples of drugs as inspiration. And if you're going to mock meditation, there are millions of people that can vouch for that giving meaning to their lives.

 

Drug addiciton wasn't in the topic but I agree, some people let the drugs become their meaning of life and end up miserable and lonely. Happiness will always be a fleeting feeling, but drugs can and do help people on their path towards being a balanced person but unfortunately they don't help everyone. In small amounts, used from time to time, I believe psychoactive drugs can be beneficial in bringing meaning to people's lives.

[tar]

Yoseph,

 

I see what you are saying, but do not agree that you have to believe in God to side with the rest of humanity on meaning and purpose. There is a way of looking at it, that I came upon 10 or 15 years ago, that if described here, might make you see what I mean on this. Religion is a tool, a symbol that everyone can refer to, when talking about each other, and the greater objective reality that we are all a part of. There are different takes on the "reality" of the symbols, how much is actual and how much is figurative. In this, you are probably right that everybody's take is subjectively different. But the reality of the situation is that everybody else, really does exist. So my take on religion, that I am trying to express here is that we all really do believe in each other and a greater objective reality that is beautiful, wonderous, huge and eternal. What portions of that are literal and what portions are figurative are the main "differences" that one can find from person to person and from religion to religion.

 

So you don't have to believe in God to find common purpose and common understanding of the world. You just have to believe in the world, and each other. And since the world is evident to all, and all have equall access to it, it is appropriate that we all consider it ours. Our responsibility, and part of our feeling of self, individually and in groups.

 

So the thread is on drugs and the meaning of life. My "making fun" of meditation, and hallucinations, is basically to point out that where ever you go internally and mentally has some large component of reality to it, as you have internalized the external world in an analog fashion, but it is not appropriate to think that changing your mind, changes reality. I admitted that I took LSD to prove that I had some first hand experience in this. And "after" my insights while on the drug in the "short circuit" condition, when my brain was no longer achieving victory and completion over nothing, I realized that everybody else did not experience the insights I had had. Everybody else did not come along for the ride. This was both a blessing and a disapointment because it was both scary and wonderful at different times, but the bottom line was that you can not, and do not exist by yourself, and the world existed and other people existed, during my trip, and continued to exist after my trip, quite indepenantly of my mind and its insights. This is why I say that when a Shaman reaches Nirvana, and becomes one with reality, he/she does it by himself, and none of the rest of us, feel the effect, so his/her achievement is an inward one, not an outward one. He/she has not become one with reality, because he/she did not include me and you. They may have included me and you in there feeling of self, but since you and I were not aware of the union, it was not actual. On the other hand, when laws are obeyed, and treaties are signed, and art is created, the real world is affected, and other people are actually included. And when you recycle your oil and ride a bike instead of motorcycle, you do something actual that has meaning and purpose for everybody else and the life on Earth, and the Earth. Things each of us are actually a part of. It is not subjective that we have these meanings and purposes.

 

But drugs and haluciantions and Gods of various sorts are imaginary. Where figuratively useful to symbolize literal stuff, this is useful. In and of itself however, imagination is suspect. It is only real in terms of the fact that images of the real world that have already been sensed, fill the imagination, and in terms of the effect that imagination can have on real world decisions, acts, and creative endeavors.

 

So, staying away from nicotine, and looking for the real ways to get endorphines released in your brain, is superior to the cheat of ingesting the nicotine, to "fool" your brain into releasing dopamine.

 

Same with drugs and meditation and God. What you think you are feeling is real enough to you, but does not mean anything to anybody else. Unless the same idea works when you are straight and sober and down to Earth, in the company of others.

 

Regards, TAR

[Yoseph]

So you don't have to believe in God to find common purpose and common understanding of the world. You just have to believe in the world, and each other.

 

The world (humanity) only has a meaning if you believe it does. It doesn't have a meaning in the eyes of the universe, again, unless you believe in a sentient God who's watching us and cares about what we do. Either way, it requires you to make up a belief. There is no testable purpose of humanity so you may as well make up what ever meaning you like with or without the help of drugs. Sure we all have our roles: doctors, street cleaners etc. but as a sum total, we are not working towards any divine end goal, we are just existing. To go back to Alan Watts, life is just a song and you're just meant to dance while the music is being played.

[tar]

Yoseph,

 

Interesting you should say that life does not have meaning to the universe. As if we are something other than universe material ourselves. I am thinking that we are absolutely universe material, because there is no other thing but the universe, for us to belong to, and to be made from. We are in and of the thing, there is no doubt.

 

Now, when it comes to having meaning to the universe, a human endeavor, usually means something to surrounding humans. Each "other" human, is actually a component of objective reality, as far as a subject is concerned. You mean something to your living relatives, and your living relatives mean something to you. I dare say I even have some dead relatives that mean something to me.

 

As long as you are in the memory of the people you have touched in your life, or in the memory of the the people who have witnessed your works in some manner, you mean something to some portion of objective reality. Some small "other" portion of objective reality. The universe, or a portion of it, is therefore capable of noticing you, and caring about what you do and don"t do.

 

Think of the judgement of God, being instead the collective judgement of eight billion humans, and in addition the judgement of humans that will live in the future, and judge you for what you created and what you destroyed. Heaven and hell could be figuratively considered as being the literal judgement and memory and thoughts related to your life and persona and works that you accomplished, and stuff you ruined and so forth, in the eyes of the local universe, in the bodies of the living creatures, including humans, around you.

 

You can not say the universe does not care and judge and find meaning and purpose, because here you and I are here doing it.

 

Show me how I am not part of objective reality, as far as you are concerned.

Tell me how you figure that you do not have meaning in my eyes.

 

Regards, TAR

[Yoseph]

Tar,

 

I like your philosophy, I hadn't thought about that perspective in much depth before. Ironically in terms of this thread you've mentioned an ideology that might be easier to come across (whilst musing about life) when on drugs. I'm not saying you have found those beliefs this way, but drugs let you see things from a different perspective from time to time, and if you are constantly challeging your philosophy with the use of drugs, you are more likely to come up with a new perspective (such as the reality you are talking about) rather than if you stuck to your routine of normal living.

[tar]

Yoseph,

 

Interesting theory. Except I have not done any drugs other than caffine and nicotine and alcholol and a couple times some muscle relaxants for my back or some novacaine at the dentist, and a couple times some anethesia stuff while getting a procedure, and once a few pain pills after an operation...for over forty years.

 

During that time of drug free operation, I went to college, was a philosophy major for a few years, graduated in Business Management, spent 4 years in the U.S. Army, later took some Engineering courses, and have done the largest majority of my reading and musing and gazing at the stars and such, NOT under the influence of drugs.

 

I would have to conclude, that my skewed philosophy might have some grounding in thoughts I had before taking drugs, and in the thoughts I had after taking drugs, but while possibly being influenced by my two episodes with LSD, my skewed philosophy was not guided by living in an altered mental state. Quite the opposite actually as I swore off drugs when I was 18 and swore off alchohol when I was 27. And since I gave up even nicotine 9 months ago, and have a job, and a house and a car, and a wife and two daughters and such I would say I AM living quite drug free and sticking to the normal routine of living.

 

So any insights I may have accrued over the last 40 years, were the result of something other than mind altering chemicals.

 

Regards, TAR

Unless you are saying that my two episodes with LSD have rendered me permanently defective in some manner, in which case the argument for gaining insight through the use of mind altering substances, would be completely dashed.

Edited January 12, 2015 by tar