US relation with Cuba

[MigL]

What are your thoughts on the thawing of US-Cuba relations ?

Will this mean the added influx of trade/tourism brings some benefit to the destitute Cuban people.

Or will the corrupt Cuban system use it to strengthen and further its dictatorial hold on the country ?

[Robittybob1]

What are your thoughts on the thawing of US-Cuba relations ?

Will this mean the added influx of trade/tourism brings some benefit to the destitute Cuban people.

Or will the corrupt Cuban system use it to strengthen and further its dictatorial hold on the country ?

You tell me the role the Pope made to this thaw in tensions. When you realize the role of the church your question seems unnecessary.

[Acme]

What are your thoughts on the thawing of US-Cuba relations ?

Will this mean the added influx of trade/tourism brings some benefit to the destitute Cuban people.[?]

Or will the corrupt Cuban system use it to strengthen and further its dictatorial hold on the country ?

If there comes a little thaw,

Still the air is chill and raw,

Here and there a patch of snow,

Dirtier than the ground below,

Dribbles down a marshy flood;

Ankle-deep you stick in mud

In the meadows while you sing,

'This is Spring.'

source

 

Your last 2 questions are not the only possibilities nor are they mutually exclusive. When you label the Cuban system 'corrupt', haven't you used the same stylistic form of labeling that you decry in other political threads?

[MigL]

Well, when the people in power ( or associated with ) live a certain lifestyle, while the rest seek to escape the country on inner tubes across 50 miles of shark infested waters to get to Florida...

 

But seriously, point taken.

I presented two possible options, as this is a discussion forum, maybe add a few others and lets discuss their likelihood.

 

The fact that this Pope seems to be a sensible person who recognizes that the role of religion is to further peace, and the fact that neither Obama nor Castro can alienate their many religious citizens, is not in question, RobbityBob1. Neither is Canada's role.

[Endy0816]

Personally I'm all for it due to the trade aspect. Looks like there will be a fair bit of push back though. It is fairly obvious Obama is hoping for this to be his "legacy" but I am not sure how it is going to play out in Congress. There are also multiple issues surrounding Guantanamo Bay needing resolution.

[iNow]

You tell me the role the Pope made to this thaw in tensions. When you realize the role of the church your question seems unnecessary.

Your shoulders must be tired from all of the axe grinding you do here.

What are your thoughts on the thawing of US-Cuba relations ?

I think it's a net positive, not a panacea, though. Regardless, the sanctions and restrictions have hurt the people of Cuba far more than the leaders in control and after 50-60 years of being ineffectual I'm glad to see us saying "enough is enough, let's explore a new path."

[Robittybob1]

Your shoulders must be tired from all of the axe grinding you do here.

 

 

My axe is rather sharp by now!

[iNow]

My axe is rather sharp by now!

A blade over sharpened rapidly becomes brittle and blunt.

 

Back on-topic:

 

Anyone think congress will overturn the embargo, or perhaps the GOP will simply protest the harsh treatment of the Cuban people to cynically court the votes of stateside Cubans in Florida while simultaneously defending the actions of the CIA as described in the recently released torture report and not realizing their hypocrisy?

 

On another note, I wonder if those same GOP'ers that claimed the high gas prices of a few years ago were Obama's fault are equally now praising him for them being so low... Haha... Of course they're not.

 

We're are living through an Orwellian post modern period where facts and logical consistency are endangered species.

 

So, embargo will stay or lose support? Should it?

[zapatos]

I think Obama's changes will stand. I believe the primary reason we have had an embargo this long is because of political inertia. A lot of people want sanctions removed (businesses, tourists, families) and only a few want them to remain (recent Cuban immigrants). I suspect dropping sanctions will make life better for a large number of Cubans.

[Robittybob1]

A blade over sharpened rapidly becomes brittle and blunt.

 

 

What are you grinding it with? I'm not stupid nor ignorant. All the Cuban churches rang their bells when the announcement was made.

[iNow]

I think Obama's changes will stand. <...> I suspect dropping sanctions will make life better for a large number of Cubans.

But his changes don't affect the embargo AFAIK. Pretty sure only congress can lift that and it will remain in place until they do, even with this increased openness and renewed diplomacy.

[zapatos]

But his changes don't affect the embargo AFAIK. Pretty sure only congress can lift that and it will remain in place until they do, even with this increased openness and renewed diplomacy.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what I've been reading but I think the restrictions he is lifting on travel, commerce, and financial activities are currently part of the embargo. Here is an excerpt of a breakdown from the NY Times:

(It looks a lot cleaner if you follow the link)

 

 

 

KEY Changes announced Wednesday Obama changed in 2009 Congressional action required

• Banking and Trade Embargo
• No transactions involving the property of a Cuban national (including purchasing Cuban cigars in third countries or signing a Cuba-related contract with a foreign firm).
• United States institutions will be able to open accounts at Cuban financial institutions.
• Travelers to Cuba will be allowed to use American credit and debit cards.
• United States entities in third countries will be allowed to engage in transactions and meetings with Cuban individuals in third countries.
• No imports or exports (with certain exceptions like humanitarian gifts).
• Certain items that support the Cuban private sector will be allowed for export, including certain building materials and agricultural equipment.
• Certain items that support telecommunications in Cuba will be allowed for export, and companies will be allowed to establish related infrastructure.
• Licensed American travelers will be able to import $400 worth of goods (including up to $100 in tobacco and alcohol).
• Congress would need to act to lift the embargo entirely.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/12/17/world/americas/cuba-sanctions.html

[iNow]

Thanks for that. Clearly, it's not so cut and dry as I'd thought.

[DimaMazin]

What are your thoughts on the thawing of US-Cuba relations ?

Will this mean the added influx of trade/tourism brings some benefit to the destitute Cuban people.

Or will the corrupt Cuban system use it to strengthen and further its dictatorial hold on the country ?

Stupidest idea of Obama. Who needs life improvement of Cuban communists? USA should create another methods for victory.

[zapatos]

...Who needs life improvement of Cuban communists?...

 

Well, it would be nice for the Cubans.

[Robittybob1]

Stupidest idea of Obama. Who needs life improvement of Cuban communists? USA should create another methods for victory.

Are you one of these "Nuke them" people?

[DimaMazin]

 

Well, it would be nice for the Cubans.

Good Cuban economy will attract Russian military forces agen.

Are you one of these "Nuke them" people?

USA need new weapon.

Edited December 21, 2014 by DimaMazin

[Ten oz]

I am glad to see U.S. and Cuba relations improving. The embargo has been hard on the people living in Cuba. Regardless of communism or any other attribute applied negatively toward Cuban leadership it does not justify denying a sovereign nation the right to self governance and fair global competition. There are many countries in the world who through the mistreatment of women, labor , and neighbors are far worse human rights abusers than Cuba. Human rights and the welfare of Cuban people is not and has not been what the embargo's about. It's about the monroe doctrine and Cuba's proximity to the U.S..

Edited December 21, 2014 by Ten oz

[iNow]

Not sure I follow the Monroe doctrine tie in here since its impact on Cuba happened about a century before the embargo even began. Imstead, the embargo began to protect US business interests and punish Castro after he seized power and nationalized over $1B in US assets that were on the island at the time.

[Ten oz]

Not sure I follow the Monroe doctrine tie in here since its impact on Cuba happened about a century before the embargo even began. Imstead, the embargo began to protect US business interests and punish Castro after he seized power and nationalized over $1B in US assets that were on the island at the time.

We (USA) still follows the monroe doctrine to a large degree. We (USA) view the Americas as exiting under our purview. It is why our Coast Guard operates around the entire continent and we freeze relations to countries like Cuba or Venezuela who partner with nonamerican world powers. The embargo started because of Castro's relationship with the former Soviet Union.

"President John F. Kennedy issued the Cuban embargo on February 7, 1962 after years of tense diplomatic relations and Castro’s increasingly close relationship with the Soviet Union. White House lore has it that just before authorizing the embargo Kennedy purchased 1,200 hand-rolled Cuban cigars for himself. The Cuban embargo is seen by some as a relic of the Cold War, but also as the result of an overly aggressive adherence to the Monroe Doctrine."

http://harvardpolitics.com/world/reexamining-cuban-embargo/

[MigL]

I don't think the US has ever aspired to annex Cuba. It was the fact that it was 'off-shore', but nearby, which originally attracted US business interests ( and my countrymen, the Mob ), so that it became an eastern Las Vegas. That is what the strictest definition of the Monroe Doctrine would imply.

As for asserting control over Cuba, and the rest of the Americas, is that really in question ? The US may not be the biggest producer nation in the world anymore ( not sure ), but they are still far-away, the biggest consumer nation. If the US stopped buying Chinese goods, China's economy would nose-dive. In effect, they control with their buying power, and not just the Americas.

 

Castro shot himself in the foot. He nationalized US interests without compensation, but gained nothing. He should just have heavily taxed those ( and the Mob's ) interests, while still keeping his communism.

Once he allied himself with Kruschev, and allowed Russian missiles off the coast of Florida, there was no turning back, and his people have suffered ever since.

Did his failed baseball career really make him that mad at the US ?

 

If all this does is supply cheap cigars and a cheap vacation getaway to Americans, with the proceeds going to the Cuban government, nothing will have changed for the Cuban people. I would like to see some foreign investment in the country which will provide better paying jobs and raise the standard of people's lives, and freedom of travel for Cubans.

Cuba should be the richest of the Caribbean islands, but is far from it.

[iNow]

We (USA) still follows the monroe doctrine to a large degree. We (USA) view the Americas as exiting under our purview. It is why our Coast Guard operates around the entire continent and we freeze relations to countries like Cuba or Venezuela who partner with nonamerican world powers. The embargo started because of Castro's relationship with the former Soviet Union."President John F. Kennedy issued the Cuban embargo on February 7, 1962 after years of tense diplomatic relations and Castro’s increasingly close relationship with the Soviet Union. White House lore has it that just before authorizing the embargo Kennedy purchased 1,200 hand-rolled Cuban cigars for himself. The Cuban embargo is seen by some as a relic of the Cold War, but also as the result of an overly aggressive adherence to the Monroe Doctrine."

http://harvardpolitics.com/world/reexamining-cuban-embargo/

This neither negates my point nor really answers my core question. It is peripheral, IMO.

If all this does is supply cheap cigars and a cheap vacation getaway to Americans, with the proceeds going to the Cuban government, nothing will have changed for the Cuban people. I would like to see some foreign investment in the country which will provide better paying jobs and raise the standard of people's lives...

What part(s) of the previous policy that has been in place for 50+ years do you think was actually working to better the lives of the Cuban people? Can you be specific?

 

Also, do you realize that tourism and the selling of cigars and the opening of business in Cuba to US companies IS and will be a form of foreign investment such as that you appear to support?

[zapatos]

Regardless of communism or any other attribute applied negatively toward Cuban leadership it does not justify denying a sovereign nation the right to self governance and fair global competition.

No one is trying to deny Cuba the right to self governance.

 

No one is under any obligation to trade with another country if they feel that country has sufficient negative attributes. Nor should they be. Would you feel obligated to trade power tools with your wife-beating next door neighbor just because you trade power tools with everyone else in the neighborhood? Are we not justified in withholding 'fair global competition' to the likes of North Korea?

 

Withholding the benefits that come with good relations with your neighbors as a method to reign in poor behavior is a time-honored and effective course of action. It is certainly better than armed conflict. I would venture to say that there is not a country in the world who does not impede 'fair global competition' for at least one other country.

 

There are many countries in the world who through the mistreatment of women, labor , and neighbors are far worse human rights abusers than Cuba.

And we generally deny them to some extent the benefits of 'fair global competition' also.

[Endy0816]

There would almost have to be substantial international investment. Most everything is in too poor condition to receive any kind of volume. Hotels, docks, airports, transit systems, assorted monuments, etc. Partially church restoration which resulted in the Popes' involvement starting all this.

 

Basically the full embargo was the end result of repeated economic volleys fired back and forth between America and the USSR, with the Containment Doctrine playing a starring role.

 

IMO business interests will probably play a role again via assorted means of campaign financing(and representatives actually seeking what is best for the job creators in their regions).

[iNow]

There would almost have to be substantial international investment.

It helps to remember that other countries did not/do not have an embargo on Cuba like the US (in fact, the UN has been urging the US to lift the Cuba embargo for years), ergo there already is and has been international investment in the country and often in substantial amounts.

 

The challenge primarily for Cuba is that significant portions of this investment came from Russia and Venezuela, both of whom are suffering great economic hardship right now given the rapidly dropping oil prices and their great reliance on high oil prices for both liquidity and power.

Edited December 22, 2014 by iNow