Consciousness

[Ten oz]

The basic definition of consciousness is the state of being awake or aware of ones surrounds. Many biological processes respond to surrounding environments. Single cell organisms respond to there surroundings yet responses do not neccessarily imply any sense of awareness as it applies to the definition of consciousness. Plants move in response to the sun. Are plants aware of the suns position in the sky? Where do we draw the line between chemical triggers, automatic biological responses, and our understand of awareness (consciousness)?

 

 

*I am not implying or interested in the thought that plants and cells all have feelings.

[starlarvae]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1571064513001188

 

You asking about consciousness or behavior?

 

Having experiences per se (being conscious) need have nothing to do with any observable behavior & vice versa (as in zombies and robots).

 

Above link presents papers pro and con the idea that the link between physical activity and mental activity is to be found at the quantum level. A quantum solution would be a big step toward resolving some of the philosophical issues involved.

[magnocrat]

I think we must distinguish between consciousness and self- awareness.

Humans have self- awareness and this means they have self- judgement.

This leads to the presence of a conscience within and means moral judgements.

A dog is definitely conscious but lacks moral judgement; it has no sense of guilt when copulating in the street.

There must have been a period in human evolutionary history when we became self conscious.

[Phi for All]

I would avoid any kind of subjective moral judgments in an objective definition of consciousness.

 

And what exactly is self-awareness? What are we aware of about ourselves that makes us want to distinguish it from what other animals experience?

[Ten oz]

Morality is not a useful concept to this discussion in my opinion. Dogs are clearly self aware they clearly have conciousness.

[Strange]

We seem to be the only animals that have a theory of mind. Apparently we are the only animal that understands pointing; maybe that is significant? Do other primates have mirror nuerons?

[Ten oz]

We seem to be the only animals that have a theory of mind. Apparently we are the only animal that understands pointing; maybe that is significant? Do other primates have mirror nuerons?

Humans are clearly the most cognitive species on the planet. In my opinion human intelligence should not be used to create a curve or bar that conciousness is messured against. The Sun produces far more light that a match stick but that doesn't mean we should consider the match stick's light production as zero. In starting this thread I was hoping to discussion what the consciousness in its most basic form. At what point does an environmental awareness response go from being a chemical reaction and become conciousness?

[Phi for All]

At what point does an environmental awareness response go from being a chemical reaction and become conciousness?

 

I think there's a difference between environmental awareness and what we call consciousness. The danger is in tailoring the definition in such a way that only humans qualify.

 

I think awareness of the future, and our impact on it with our present activities is a mark of consciousness. A squirrel might store excess nuts for the winter, but is he doing that because he's aware that pretty soon it's going to get cold like it did last year, or is it just a conditioned response that helps him survive? Humans seem to have a much deeper awareness of the future and how important it is to plan ahead around foreseeable obstacles. Consciousness seems to help us be prepared, which is critical to maintaining our most potent traits, like cooperation, communication, tool use, and complex cognition.

 

I grew up hearing that awareness of our own mortality was a mark of consciousness. We know we'll die eventually, and often make plans based on this awareness. Do other animals have that awareness? They know about death, and perhaps the possibility of it happening if they don't stay away from certain things, but are they aware they're going to age and die no matter what?

[Delta1212]

We seem to be the only animals that have a theory of mind. Apparently we are the only animal that understands pointing; maybe that is significant? Do other primates have mirror nuerons?

Dogs understand pointing, and I read about a study a few years ago that suggested elephants do to some extent, as well.

[Ten oz]

@ Phi for All, I agree that we shouldn't tailor this discussion in such a way that only humans qualify.

 

I am not sure I agree with the awareness of the future part though. I think anything capable of making a choice qualifies as concious. Plants respond to there environment but that response is entirely chemical and reactionary. Plants do not have a central system that makes choices. Where as an insect does. An insect can choose to sit still or move. Insects may not have the cognitive ability to think even 1 second into the future but in real time they do make choices. Those choices are mostly reflexive but do require a central system that is aware choices have been made.

[Strange]

Humans are clearly the most cognitive species on the planet. In my opinion human intelligence should not be used to create a curve or bar that conciousness is messured against. The Sun produces far more light that a match stick but that doesn't mean we should consider the match stick's light production as zero. In starting this thread I was hoping to discussion what the consciousness in its most basic form. At what point does an environmental awareness response go from being a chemical reaction and become conciousness?

 

Then you need to define what you mean by consciousness.

Dogs understand pointing, and I read about a study a few years ago that suggested elephants do to some extent, as well.

 

I would like to see some evidence of that (for dogs, especially). I suspect they might follow a gesture that looks a bit like throwing but ends up pointing. But just static pointing? I'm not convinced.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Strange

[Phi for All]

Then you need to define what you mean by consciousness.

Most definitions I've heard are either specific to humans, or so general they can be applied to anything living but not rooted in the ground. Is there a quality that makes consciousness scalable? Or does intelligence modify consciousness so we could say humans have developed more of it than other animals, or a more complex understanding of what it means to be conscious?

[andrewcellini]

 

Then you need to define what you mean by consciousness.

 

I would like to see some evidence of that (for dogs, especially). I suspect they might follow a gesture that looks a bit like throwing but ends up pointing. But just static pointing? I'm not convinced.

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(13)01043-9?cc=y- elephants

 

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0030913- dogs compared to common chimpanzees

[Ten oz]

Most definitions I've heard are either specific to humans, or so general they can be applied to anything living but not rooted in the ground. Is there a quality that makes consciousness scalable? Or does intelligence modify consciousness so we could say humans have developed more of it than other animals, or a more complex understanding of what it means to be conscious?

Good post. Right to the point of the thread. People often conflate intelligence and consciousness.

[Strange]

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(13)01043-9?cc=y- elephants

 

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0030913- dogs compared to common chimpanzees

 

Fascinating. Thanks.

[Delta1212]

 

Fascinating. Thanks.

I see andrewcellini beat me to the punch. It is fascinating, though, yes. Edited January 20, 2015 by Delta1212

[Phi for All]

People often conflate intelligence and consciousness.

 

Intelligence modifies consciousness. A higher intelligence improves consciousness the way it does for tool use, or communication. Makes it richer and more complex.

[magnocrat]

'From a chemical reaction to consciousness' thats a tall order by any standards it almost sounds like a search for when and how life waz first injected into organic material.

' What ever is fickle freckled who knows how'

Hopkins

[Phi for All]

'From a chemical reaction to consciousness' thats a tall order by any standards it almost sounds like a search for when and how life waz first injected into organic material.

' What ever is fickle freckled who knows how'

Hopkins

 

No. That sounds like a different thread.

[Ten oz]

Intelligence modifies consciousness. A higher intelligence improves consciousness the way it does for tool use, or communication. Makes it richer and more complex.

I agree. With intelligence comes more cognitive ability. The analogy I used early was comparing light from a match flame to that from the sun. How much greater the sun is should not make one consider the match flame to be zero. The match flame does produce like however inferior to the sun that light be defined.

Taking inputs (vibrations, tempurature, light, smell, etc) from the outside environment and using that information to make choices I think requires conciousness. I think conciousness act as a processing point for competing chemical triggers. Being hungery, tired, cold, and etc all at the same time requires some basic form of management. That management is consciousness. Plants obviously responds to environmental conditions but those responses are automatic like a program. So there does not seem to be consciousness there. A field mouse however makes choices (when to eat, sleep, hide, run, etc) all day. I believe a field mouse is conscious. Of course a mouse may be more akin to the match stick flame than to our more sun like human mind.

'From a chemical reaction to consciousness' thats a tall order by any standards it almost sounds like a search for when and how life waz first injected into organic material.

' What ever is fickle freckled who knows how'

Hopkins

It really is not that tall of an order. Chemical reactions how the human brain works today. How do you know when you are hungry? Why does drinking alcohol make you drunk or coffee make you awake? How is depression treated with medicine? Despite intelligence the human mind is still chemically driven.

[magnocrat]

Julian Jaynes makes a good case for humans having bicameral brains and being unconscious zombies.

He believed the transition from bicameral man to consciously aware man took place over ten centuries beginning around 1800 BC.

I'm not sure Mr Dawkins believes this but his comment suggests fhe possibility.

As for me I'm a humble layman hoping to glean a glimpse of truth from the experts.

Some of these topics are very tricky but fascinating nonetheless.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Lets suppose That a single cell organism posses a consciousness of instinctual reproduction or survival. And that over eons of time, this single cell, adapted it's instinct to not only evolve physically to the demands of adaptation, but also develops a brain, which augments the original instictiveness, thereby adding sensory intakes, which we now call mental consciousness.

 

So a question would be , Why does a single cell organism have a need to reproduce or grow? If reproduction or growth can be tied into an effort to survive, then our present day awareness of consciousness may merely be an upgrade to the basic function/need or cause of the driving single cell organism seminal awareness.

 

And isn't this in totality, what we are today? And what is more pressing to a being as a whole, animal or human, then survival.