The Quantum Tunneling Teleporter

[Whitestar]

A while back I posted a thread on Teleportation:

 

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2939

 

 

I discussed about how the transporter in Star Trek operates and why it would never work. Any procedure that convert matter to energy would be deadly and reconstruct person from this energy is a clone, not the original. In addition, the disassembly of crew members at the atomic level is not a viable option either due to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. However, there may be a way to teleport a human: quantum tunneling.

 

 

There is an article on the net about quantum physics and in one section, the author mentions about quantum teleportation. Here is a quote from the author:

 

 

"Teleportation: As the probability wave suggests, you can get from Point A to Point C without necessarily passing through Point B. Small particles can jump from one location to another without actually moving through space between points, which is sometimes called a 'quantum leap'. In theory, this could be extended to larger particles."

 

 

And here is the link:

 

 

http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/quantum-physics/

 

 

In quantum tunneling a particle can bypass a barrier and appear on the other side of it without traveling thru it. The process is responsible for radioactive decay of elements where an alpha will tunnel out of the nucleus of Uranium atom and then under go beta decay. Electronic use quantum tunneling of electron in certain transitor (such as a tunneling diode).

 

 

Now quantum tunneling is due to the fact that particles have a wave function. This wave function is the possibility of a particle being at specific location. If you could control this possibility wave you can transport a particle to any location that it could have travel to or will travel to. Do this with a person, and you could teleport him without turning him to energy or breaking him down into his basic molecules and beaming him.

 

 

All you would need is to know his wave function (yes, people have a wave function, and even the universe can be express as one) and alter it in a manner (how I have no idea) that alter his possibility of his location to place him where you wish him to be. He would suddenly be at that location, in a instant.

 

 

All that is require is finding a way to manipulate the wave function of the particles involved. We do this all the time to beams of particles like photon and electrons. Take the double slit experiment for example. By closing and opening a single slit we can determine whether particle like a photon, proton,neutron or electron behave like wave or steams of particles.

 

 

Not only can we effect the path the particle take but actually where it impact on the target, without applying a physical force to the particle itself. Basicly we are shaping the possibility wave in a manner that defies common logic and how this is done is one of the mysteries of modern physics.

 

 

What causes the quantum wave form to collaspe, determining when or where a particle appears. We know when we attempt to measure a particle it happen, but the mechanism of how it happen is unknown. If we knew how the wave function is force to collaspe then we may be able to effect the outcome.

 

 

We could at will make a collection of particles like a human behave like a wave and then change the location by forcing the wave function to collaspe with the possibility that he some where else. The chance of any particle under QT is very rare, in order to actually teleport an object we would need to work with the the combine waveform of the object. Treating the macro object as a single particle. This is not unknown since there are cases of macro quantum tunneling of molecules and collection of particles.

 

 

Using quantum tunneling as a means of teleportation depends on being able to control the quantum waveform of an object directly. As it stands, we do not know what kind of wave (whether if a real wave or just not) it is exactly, but if we could then the whole chance thing goes out the window. We can alter the chance of an object being on Mar instead of being on earth and boom it would appear there.

 

 

All real cases of quantum tunneling is over small distants like nanometers, but in theory if one had the abilities to alter quantum wave form like we can do with sound wave the change in distant would only depend on the amount of energy needed to perform the change. The fact is that we usually alter wave forms thru the use of resonent chamber, alter possibilities waves may require the use of ghost particles.

 

 

Ghost particles was a result of a method of looking at interaction of subatomic partcles called scatter matrix. Basically it look at the input of particles into a collision and the output and assigned them values according to charge, spin, baryon number, etc and finally the possiblitily of this particle actually being created in the reaction. Some outputs would have a negative possibility, which indicated a particle called a ghost. These ghost could alter the possibility of other particles quantum functions. These ghosts is basically what killed S matrix as a tool of particle physicists, but ghost do still appear in many attempt to create super gravity theories or grand unification theories.

 

 

So it would most likely be ghost radiation that would be used. Ghost particles and state are the subject of many papers on theorical physics especially invovling quantum gravity. While many physicists cannot deal with particles with negative possiblitilies, this should not be a problem. As it stand negative energy and antimatter were concepts that made physicist uncomfortable also. Therefore, ghost radiation seems to be the best candidate. Such ghost particles would allow us to alter the possibilty waves of systems of particle.

 

 

What does everybody else thinks?

 

 

Whitestar

[Ophiolite]

I await with interest the response of one or more bona fide physicists to this suggestion. I suspect that while it is theoretically possible it is practically impossible. In theory all the atoms of an object, say a vase of flowers might randomly move up at the same time, so that it momentarily levitated. In practice this is not going to happen. While you are sugesting a technological approach to remove the random element, one suspects, regretfully, that this will prove impossible.

[5614]

This wave function is the possibility of a particle being at specific location. If you could control this possibility wave you can transport a particle to any location that it could have travel to or will travel to. Do this with a person[/b'],

It is practically impossible to do this with a person.

 

To move that many trillions to the power of a few more trillion atoms is practically impossible, although I can see the theoretical side you are coming from.

 

Also QM deals with very small things... these small phonomenas cannot practically happen on such a massive scale as to move or effect something you see because it has soooo many atoms.

[Johnny5]

A while back I posted a thread on Teleportation:

 

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2939

 

 

I discussed about how the transporter in Star Trek operates and why it would never work. Any procedure that convert matter to energy would be deadly and reconstruct person from this energy is a clone' date=' not the original. In addition, the disassembly of crew members at the atomic level is not a viable option either due to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. However, there may be a way to teleport a human: quantum tunneling.

 

What does everybody else thinks?

 

 

Whitestar[/quote']

 

It's totally impossible to teleport someone from earth to mars. If you need a mathematical proof of this fact, one can be provided. When you are dealing with the motion of a single particle through the vacuum, of course it has to quantum leap from one place to another, so that the motion looks like this:

 

....................

 

 

In theory there are an infinite number of points between any two points, and if the particle had to pass through every single one of them, it would take it an infinite amount of time to move. So particles do "instantaneously change position in a given frame"... what you called a "quantum leap". This is not extrodinary, rather it's necessary.

 

But the distance traveled isn't purely arbitrary. Particles don't regularly jump from one galaxy to another. The distance they jump is extraordinarily small. That distance is also a frame dependent quantity.

[swansont]

It's totally impossible to teleport someone from earth to mars. If you need a mathematical proof of this fact' date=' one can be provided. When you are dealing with the motion of a single particle through the vacuum, of course it has to quantum leap from one place to another, so that the motion looks like this:

 

....................

 

 

In theory there are an infinite number of points between any two points, and if the particle had to pass through every single one of them, it would take it an infinite amount of time to move. So particles do "instantaneously change position in a given frame"... what you called a "quantum leap". This is not extrodinary, rather it's necessary.

[/quote']

 

Sounds like one of the Zeno's paradox descriptions of motion.

[Johnny5]

Sounds like one of the Zeno's paradox descriptions of motion.

 

I didn't take it from Zeno, but it is similiar to Zeno's paradox of the runner, shown in this article, also called the dichotomy paradox here.

 

I am also familiar with the mathematical analysis of the race between Achilles and the Tortoise, and his arrow paradox.

 

Which of Zeno's paradoxes are you thinking of?

[reverse]

the thing I have always been uneasy with is,

how do you get the person back inside the transported body?

 

Are we sure that the personality will automatically fill a similar vessel?

 

I know my computer doesn’t come back after a power cut.

[swansont]

I didn't take it from Zeno' date=' but it is [i']similiar [/i] to Zeno's paradox of the runner, shown in this article, also called the dichotomy paradox here.

 

I am also familiar with the mathematical analysis of the race between Achilles and the Tortoise, and his arrow paradox.

 

Which of Zeno's paradoxes are you thinking of?

 

Achilles and the tortoise, and the dichotomy, both of which discuss the division of motion into an infinite number of points.

[swansont]

The process is responsible for radioactive decay of elements where an alpha will tunnel out of the nucleus of Uranium atom and then under go beta decay.

 

It's an alpha particle. It's called alpha decay. It doesn't then undergo beta decay.

 

 

Anyway, the wave function isn't so easily manipulated - it describes the state of the object. So if you want to "do something" to the wave function you have to put the object in a particluar state.

[Whitestar]

It is practically impossible to do this with a person.

 

To move that many trillions to the power of a few more trillion atoms is practically impossible' date=' although I can see the theoretical side you are coming from.

 

Also QM deals with very small things... these small phonomenas cannot practically happen on such a massive scale as to move or effect something you see because it has soooo many atoms.[/quote']

 

 

So, you don't think it's theoretically possible to remove the random element from a technological standpoint?

 

 

Whitestar

[Whitestar]

It's an alpha particle. It's called alpha decay. It doesn't then undergo beta decay.

 

 

Anyway' date=' the wave function isn't so easily manipulated - it describes the state of the object. So if you want to "do something" to the wave function you have to put the object in a particluar state.[/quote']

 

 

So how do you "do something" to the wave function in order to put the object in a particular state?

 

 

Whitestar

[C60]

I like the idea man but it just has to many things going agianst it.

[swansont]

So' date=' you don't think it's theoretically possible to remove the random element from a technological standpoint?

[/quote']

 

The random element isn't an engineering problem. It's inherent in the physics.

[swansont]

So how do you "do something" to the wave function in order to put the object in a particular state?

 

You do something to the object, and that changes the wave function. The wave function describes the state of the object.

 

In your example - you want the wave function to spread out, so it's possible to find the object far away. OK, you can do that. In order to have a large spatial wave function, you need to have a narrow momentum wave function. To do that, you need to have a very well defined speed; in the rest frame, that equates to making something very cold. Now the particle can be found over a large spatial area, but you have no control over where. If you want a specific spatial wave function, so it's two-lobed (large probability of finding the object at two separate points) that will dictate the momentum the particle must have. They are fourier transforms of each other.

[5614]

So, you don't think it's theoretically possible to remove the random element from a technological standpoint?

Kind of.

 

I am standing at a corner or a road and want to know if there's someone around the corner without looking myself, it is 50/50 whether someone is there, it'd be random or by chance if someone was there... I could use technology (aka a camera) to look around the corner for me. This is using technology to remove the randomness from who (if anyone) is around the corner.

 

You can begin to remove some types of randomness using technology, but to use technology to remove randomness of the movement of all the atoms in a human (at the same time) and to make them all "teleport" to the same place is just not possible.

[swansont]

Kind of.

 

I am standing at a corner or a road and want to know if there's someone around the corner without looking myself' date=' it is 50/50 whether someone is there, it'd be random or by chance if someone was there... I could use technology (aka a camera) to look around the corner for me. This is using technology to remove the randomness from who (if anyone) is around the corner.

[/quote']

 

That doesn't remove the randomness of whether someone is there, only whether or not you know someone is there. The camera doesn't make them actually be there.

[5614]

True.

 

But before I know if someone is there as far as I am aware it'd be random if some is there... I don't have a clue.

 

With the camera I know if someone is there or not, therefore it no longer seems random... I know for certain.

 

That's what I meant, although obviously you are correct in what you said.

[swansont]

True.

 

But before I know if someone is there as far as I am aware it'd be random if some is there... I don't have a clue.

 

With the camera I know if someone is there or not' date=' therefore it no longer [u']seems[/u] random... I know for certain.

 

That's what I meant, although obviously you are correct in what you said.

 

That's the difference between it being an engineering issue and an inherent physics issue.

[Whitestar]

You can begin to remove some types of randomness using technology, but to use technology to remove randomness of the movement of all the atoms in a human (at the same time) and to make them all "teleport" to the same place is just not possible.

 

 

1) Do you think we will never be able to remove the randomness of all the atoms in a human body, regardless of extremely advance technology/physics in the far future?

 

 

2) Is this randomness a law of nature?

 

 

Whitestar

[5614]

1) Do you think we will never be able to remove the randomness of all the atoms in a human body, regardless of extremely advance technology/physics in the far future?

No, not to the accuracy that is required, besides, as Swansont said:

 

"That [technology] doesn't remove the randomness of whether someone is there, only whether or not you know someone is there. The camera [technology doesn't make them actually be there."

[swansont]

2) Is this randomness a law of nature?

 

It's inherent in quantum mechanics. You can leverage it sometimes (e.g. squeezed states) but never get rid of it.

[Whitestar]

It's inherent in quantum mechanics. You can leverage it sometimes (e.g. squeezed states) but never get rid of it.

 

 

Just like the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, correct?

 

 

Whitestar

[swansont]

Yes.

[Whitestar]

It's inherent in quantum mechanics. You can leverage it sometimes (e.g. squeezed states) but never get rid of it.

 

 

 

 

Just like the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle' date=' correct?

 

Whitestar[/quote']

 

 

Yes

 

 

So, if the matter/energy conversion teleporter and the quantum tunneling teleporter are not the best ways to teleport, what are the other theoretically possible options for teleportation? Through wormholes, interdimensional wormholes, extra dimensions, or quantum teleportation?

 

 

Whitestar

[Johnny5]

So' date=' if the matter/energy conversion teleporter and the quantum tunneling teleporter are not the best ways to teleport, what are the other theoretically possible options for teleportation? Through wormholes, interdimensional wormholes, extra dimensions, or quantum teleportation?

 

 

Whitestar[/quote']

 

Wormholes will always be science fiction. You cannot have your center of mass "jump intergalactic distances across the universe."

 

It IS impossible to do that, there are no wormholes.

 

Any final theory of physics, will have this built into it.