What kind of animal is doing this?

[Acme]

I don't believe what was said e.g. "a worm moving a two ounce stone". I'll believe that when I see it.

And I don't care what you believe. Get out and conduct your own experiments and stop with the one-liner potshots. Have you read Darwin's book that we are reading and discussing, or do you intend to read it? Or are you content to provoke skepticism with nothing to substantiate it? That last question is rhetorical of course; you have made the answer clear.

[Robittybob1]

And I don't care what you believe. Get out and conduct your own experiments and stop with the one-liner potshots. Have you read Darwin's book that we are reading and discussing, or do you intend to read it? Or are you content to provoke skepticism with nothing to substantiate it? That last question is rhetorical of course; you have made the answer clear.

Well what did you think when you read that about the two ounce stone? Do you think it was possible? I tried to open that text and it was just tiny pages about 2 cm wide, so I couldn't read it in the weekend.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Robittybob1

[Acme]

Well what did you think when you read that about the two ounce stone? Do you think it was possible? I tried to open that text and it was just tiny pages about 2 cm wide, so I couldn't read it in the weekend.

I think Darwin gave the evidence as he found it, so yes I think it is true. As to the link, I'm using I'll give it again as it's just one of several. I don't know anything about 2cm, but the document is a PDF and moving the cursor to the bottom brings up a tool bar which allows you to increase the size as well as download the document to you computer to read offline as I have done. You can also increase a page size using your browser tools.

 

The Formation Of Vegetable Mould, Through the Action of Worms, with Observations on Their Habits by Charles Darwin, LL.D., F.R.S. With Illustrations 1881]

PS A couple more thoughts of a preemptive nature. Before I get the old 'science is just a belief like religion' crapola because I said "I believe Darwin', let me amend that to "yes, I have confidence in Darwin's research". Then too before I'm castigated for being insulting I point out that Bibbity's argument is an argument from personal incredulity and therefore a logical fallacy of a most insulting kind.

[arc]

While I do [obviously] enjoy the investigation and speculations involved, the better part -in my view- is in the knowing. After all, it is knowledge that is power and not speculation.

 

Well if I discover that my speculations are correct and I don't tell you . . . . than . . . .

[Acme]

Well if I discover that my speculations are correct and I don't tell you . . . . than . . . .

Well, it's 'then' and not 'than' and you will be satisfied and I not. What after all is the point of investigation if not to gain knowledge? It is one thing to talk about science and an entirely different thing to do science. Mind you that in the case of the worms I find that on the hole...erhm, whole you are doing a fine job.

 

While I don't have pines nearby I do have worms aplenty and I will be keeping an eye out for any hole-plugging or other behavior as I may find informative to this topic.

[StringJunky]

While I do [obviously] enjoy the investigation and speculations involved, the better part -in my view- is in the knowing. After all, it is knowledge that is power and not speculation.

Yes, it is better to speculate from what is known rather than from fresh air.

[arc]

Well, it's 'then' and not 'than' and you will be satisfied and I not. What after all is the point of investigation if not to gain knowledge? It is one thing to talk about science and an entirely different thing to do science. Mind you that in the case of the worms I find that on the hole...erhm, whole you are doing a fine job.

 

While I don't have pines nearby I do have worms aplenty and I will be keeping an eye out for any hole-plugging or other behavior as I may find informative to this topic.

 

That is what makes these types of inquiries so enjoyable, the easy access to the field of study. (And the worms under it)

 

Yes, it is better to speculate from what is known rather than from fresh air.

 

But the explorers who write the books get the freshest air of all. I wonder what that ocean breeze smelled like on the deck of the H.M.S. Beagle.

[Acme]

That is what makes these types of inquiries so enjoyable, the easy access to the field of study. (And the worms under it)

 

But the explorers who write the books get the freshest air of all. I wonder what that ocean breeze smelled like on the deck of the H.M.S. Beagle.

Well writ. In that spirit I jolly well got off my posterior and went out to the garden for a look-see. It's dark, 45ºF, light rain falling, and smells of rain & soil. Using my pen light I found in no short order a lowly earthworm emerging from the side of a shallow hole. Yippeee! I quickly ran in and got my 'old' video camera with infrared and shot some video. The camera has an IR LED that can be turned on for illumination and I turned that on and shot hand-held for about 5 minutes. The worm appeared to be foraging and may have been in the process of taking in a bit of something either food or a bit of grit for the gizzard.

 

Be back in a few with a video after I get it processed.

Alas I don't know how to have the movie preview display so I grabbed a still to post as well.

 

Here we go

 

 

Movie: >> https://flic.kr/p/qp7nnh

[arc]

Well what did you think when you read that about the two ounce stone? Do you think it was possible? I tried to open that text and it was just tiny pages about 2 cm wide, so I couldn't read it in the weekend.

 

Chapter 2 page 60-61

[Robittybob1]

I think Darwin gave the evidence as he found it, so yes I think it is true. As to the link, I'm using I'll give it again as it's just one of several. I don't know anything about 2cm, but the document is a PDF and moving the cursor to the bottom brings up a tool bar which allows you to increase the size as well as download the document to you computer to read offline as I have done. You can also increase a page size using your browser tools.

 

The Formation Of Vegetable Mould, Through the Action of Worms, with Observations on Their Habits by Charles Darwin, LL.D., F.R.S. With Illustrations 1881]

PS A couple more thoughts of a preemptive nature. Before I get the old 'science is just a belief like religion' crapola because I said "I believe Darwin', let me amend that to "yes, I have confidence in Darwin's research". Then too before I'm castigated for being insulting I point out that Bibbity's argument is an argument from personal incredulity and therefore a logical fallacy of a most insulting kind.

What! Are you saying that just because I could not imagine how an earthworm can move a two ounce stone? who was offended? who was insulted?

We don't measure in ounces any more, but in the moment it sounded extraordinary. There is nothing illogical about doubting something that is incredulous. "Illogical fallacy" - now that is a bit harsh? In fact I think at worst I expressed an opinion, which I am entitled to.

 

I don't believe what was said e.g. "a worm moving a two ounce stone". I'll believe that when I see it.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Robittybob1

[arc]

Well writ. In that spirit I jolly well got off my posterior and went out to the garden for a look-see. It's dark, 45ºF, light rain falling, and smells of rain & soil. Using my pen light I found in no short order a lowly earthworm emerging from the side of a shallow hole. Yippeee! I quickly ran in and got my 'old' video camera with infrared and shot some video. The camera has an IR LED that can be turned on for illumination and I turned that on and shot hand-held for about 5 minutes. The worm appeared to be foraging and may have been in the process of taking in a bit of something either food or a bit of grit for the gizzard.

 

Be back in a few with a video after I get it processed.

Alas I don't know how to have the movie preview display so I grabbed a still to post as well.

 

Here we go

 

 

Movie: >> https://flic.kr/p/qp7nnh

Nice Job! That poor guy looks cooooooold! You need to get some indoors and feed them cabbage and onions.

[Acme]

What! Are you saying that just because I could not imagine how an earthworm can move a two ounce stone? who was offended? who was insulted?

We don't measure in ounces any more, but in the moment it sounded extraordinary. There is nothing illogical about doubting something that is incredulous. "Illogical fallacy" - now that is a bit harsh? In fact I think at worst I expressed an opinion, which I am entitled to.

I'm offended. You regularly shoot off your mouth in hit & run posts with nothing to support you but ignorance. It is insulting to me, scientific enquiry, and discussion all. Please stop.

Nice Job! That poor guy looks cooooooold! You need to get some indoors and feed them cabbage and onions.

Danke! It gives evidence of how cool a temp they will come out in as well as in rain. Darwin notes that contrary to 'common knowledge' worms don't drown and they don't seal their burrows to prevent flooding.

 

I likely won't bring them inside but I will be doing some more field investigations and recording as circumstances allow. I'm hoping for the rain to stop and skies to clear so I can get a crack with the new camera at the comet that's currently in the sky.

 

I'm off to relax and watch me some Stargate so will sign off for a couple hours.

[Robittybob1]

I'm offended. You regularly shoot off your mouth in hit & run posts with nothing to support you but ignorance. It is insulting to me, scientific enquiry, and discussion all. Please stop.

 

 

You are offended because I don't believe something written by Darwin. That is your problem not mine. I never said it could never happen, but just that I found it hard to believe. That is fair enough. So you can't run around telling me to "stop". It is you that needs to stop and think that it is fair enough when others have an opinion.

[StringJunky]

What! Are you saying that just because I could not imagine how an earthworm can move a two ounce stone? who was offended? who was insulted?

We don't measure in ounces any more, but in the moment it sounded extraordinary. There is nothing illogical about doubting something that is incredulous. "Illogical fallacy" - now that is a bit harsh? In fact I think at worst I expressed an opinion, which I am entitled to.

In your neck of the woods, one type of rare worm can grow to 140cm and 11mm diameter.

[Robittybob1]

In your neck of the woods, one type of rare worm can grow to 140cm and 11mm diameter.

When the swamp grounds of Southland were ploughed for the first time 50 years ago we would see worms of a similar size but their bodies (up to 600 mm long) had no strength compared to a vigorous red worm. As far as I know they never came out of the soil. The seagulls would have a feast on the days the ploughing was done.

I don't know the species name.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Robittybob1

[Acme]

I see you are still up Arc so thought I'd suggest you run out to your gravel pile with a flashlight & see if you can spot any worm activity. It's just a light drizzle and not so cold that a light jacket won't keep you comfy. Don't worry about a camera, just report what you find.

 

I went out again and found my first worm gone and another with just 1/4" or so out of a burrow. Both showed no indication that they were aware of the IR LED light even at a close distance of a couple inches. I should note the needles in my vid are Douglas Fir and no sign [yet] of them being used to plug holes.

 

Commercial break over so back to my show.

[arc]

I see you are still up Arc so thought I'd suggest you run out to your gravel pile with a flashlight & see if you can spot any worm activity. It's just a light drizzle and not so cold that a light jacket won't keep you comfy. Don't worry about a camera, just report what you find.

 

I went out again and found my first worm gone and another with just 1/4" or so out of a burrow. Both showed no indication that they were aware of the IR LED light even at a close distance of a couple inches. I should note the needles in my vid are Douglas Fir and no sign [yet] of them being used to plug holes.

 

Commercial break over so back to my show.

 

 

I had my coat on and was walking out the door when thought I might check before heading out, and so I read your post.

 

This is the worm who's burrow I had dug up previously, poor guy he's the only one out foraging tonight. Apparently there was a break-in and someone stole everything in his pantry. I feel really bad about that.

 

[swansont]

I don't believe what was said e.g. "a worm moving a two ounce stone". I'll believe that when I see it.

 

!

Moderator Note

 

To quote Katherine Hepburn from The African Queen (about the impossibility of navigating the river they were on), "Nevertheless"

 

Meanwhile, the rest of the gang can proceed under the assumption that the observation is valid. If you have a valid objection about the veracity of an observation that's one thing, but a blanket "I'll believe that when I see it" isn't a legitimate counterargument.

 

Try and stay on topic, and to all: stop with the sniping.

 

[Robittybob1]

With all these high tech cameras focused on the worms I'm anticipating seeing "two ounce" stones being moved by the worms as well as pine needles.

You know I might get my wish!

http://www.greeneducationfoundation.org/greenthumbchallengesub/gardening-resources/composting/402-worms.html

 

Earthworms are STRONG - they can move stones 60 times their own body weight.

Edited January 5, 2015 by Robittybob1

[Acme]

...http://www.psychology.gatech.edu/psyc3031/Behaviorism%20Behavior%20and%20Philosophy/1982%20-%20Vol%2010%20No%202/05%20Darwin's%20Earthworms%20A%20Case%20Study%20in%20Evolutionary%20Psychology.PDF

I finished Darwin's book and now reading your psychology article. Danke.

...The motivation for Darwin's study of worms came from geology: As early as 1837 Darwin was excited by the possibility that these small creatures seemed to play an enormous role in a fundamentally important geological process the formation of topsoil.

...

What is most interesting about Darwin's earthworm study is that although he was interested in the issues of instinct versus intelligence and in intelligence and learning, he did not follow a research program that resembles anything in classical animal psychology. His efforts closely resemble more modern approaches, as I have remarked, especially contemporary ethology, and what was come to be called ecological psychology. It is this modernity of approach which makes Darwin's work an exciting field for historical research. ...

I enclosed all but the lens opening of the IR camera in a weatherproof cover and after clearing the burrow opening that I earlier recorded the worm in, I set the camera to watching it. I should get about 6 hours out of the battery, though the IR illumination light may shorten that. It's been out for about 45 minutes and just dusk now. About 52ºF and no rain.

[arc]

With all these high tech cameras focused on the worms I'm anticipating seeing "two ounce" stones being moved by the worms as well as pine needles.

You know I might get my wish!

http://www.greeneducationfoundation.org/greenthumbchallengesub/gardening-resources/composting/402-worms.html

 

Thanks for that bob, I had no idea they were that strong. I'm thinking about those small birds that take them on. I'm sure they are quite strong for their size also but they are built for flying with hollow bones and such. I'm wondering what it's like looking out through their eyeballs at some huge worm they have locked in their beak. With one end of the worm locked into its hole, that must not be very easy for those smaller birds. Like us taking on a 3-4 meter boa with our teeth.

Edited January 6, 2015 by arc

[StringJunky]

I finished Darwin's book and now reading your psychology article. Danke.

 

That article piqued my interest because it suggested worms might be the very beginnings of intelligence on the evolutionary scale.

[Robittybob1]

 

Thanks for that bob, I had no idea they were that strong. I'm thinking about those small birds that take them on. I'm sure they are quite strong for their size also but they are built for flying with hollow bones and such. I'm wondering what it's like looking out through their eyeballs at some huge worm they have locked in their beak. With one end of the worm locked into its hole, that must not be very easy for those smaller birds. Like us taking on a 3-4 meter boa with our teeth.

I have yet to see a worm win that one. I was working with my compost and there were masses of worms present so I went and fetched two hens, for they seem to love worms, but initially they were having trouble recognizing the worms from the background. I noticed the worms stayed still and the hens couldn't see them. Later the hens latched on and were having a feast.

[Acme]

That article piqued my interest because it suggested worms might be the very beginnings of intelligence on the evolutionary scale.

Ok; finished. I didn't come away with worms-first intelligence as the most interest piquing idea from the article, but your mention will prompt me to look at the evolution of worms more generally. My peak piquing on finishing the paper is that little work since Darwin has been done on worm behavior and of that behavior research done since, virtually none in the field.

 

On that note, the burrow I'm recording now emerges from the side of a hole and I may find some hole-plugging behavior that varies from the more usual burrow opening on flat ground such as Arc started us with. I did put a couple loose leaves nearby, a 10" or so decaying plant stem, and a leaf pinned down with a rock. I checked the setup about 20 minutes ago and saw one leaf had been dragged over the burrow and noticed some slight movement under it. I still have about 2 hours of battery life so I left it to run down before stopping the recording. Temp is down to 48ºF; no rain.

Thanks for that bob, I had no idea they were that strong. I'm thinking about those small birds that take them on. I'm sure they are quite strong for their size also but they are built for flying with hollow bones and such. I'm wondering what it's like looking out through their eyeballs at some huge worm they have locked in their beak. With one end of the worm locked into its hole, that must not be very easy for those smaller birds. Like us taking on a 3-4 meter boa with our teeth.

A little math would have given you that measure of strength, i.e. 2oz=56gms and estimating a worm at 1 gram gives 56 times a worm's weight. Moreover, that cited article begins with quoting Darwin and the strength fact may well have been derived from him just as I did.

 

As to birds pulling earthworms from their burrows, it's hardly a measure of the worm's strength. Whether the worms are torn apart or let go to avoid being torn apart, they are no match for a bird regardless of strength to body-size ratio. (Let alone the birds cutting/crushing bill.)

Edit: I once watched and recorded a Robin attack and eat a small garter snake whole. Alas the recording was on a tape from the camera I earlier referenced as going 'kaflooie'. Nevertheless it was fascinating to witness.

 

I also note that the worms in compost piles are a different class than the singular worms living in burrows that are the subject of this thread.

 

As it will take me several hours to review and edit my recording before I can post it, it will be well into tomorrow before I get it done.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Acme

[Robittybob1]

.....

As to birds pulling earthworms from their burrows, it's hardly a measure of the worm's strength. Whether the worms are torn apart or let go to avoid being torn apart, they are no match for a bird regardless of strength to body-size ratio. (Let alone the birds cutting/crushing bill.)

 

I also note that the worms in compost piles are a different class than the singular worms living in burrows that are the subject of this thread.

 

.

How did you work out the worms in a compost pile were a different class? Could it just be like humans some of us live in cities ,some in the country? I didn't put Tiger worms in the compost, they were just good old regular earthworms as far as I could tell. The worms just might be able to have different strategies for different habitats?