Radical Islam: What is the main cause?

[Vexen]

2014 was a bad year for Islam. It saw radical Islamic groups including ISIS, Hamas, Boko Haram, taliban, al-Qaeda and al-Shabaab commit unthinkable crimes. What is the connection between the Islamic faith and these groups? Have these groups hijacked a peaceful religion?

 

"Bin Laden's ideology and interpretation of Islam led to the creation of al-Qaeda in response to perceived threats against the Muslim community by the Soviet Union, the U.S. in particular due to its troop presence in Saudi Arabia, and American support for Israel."

 

"Recently, there have been incidents on a global scale, where certain hardline Islamic groups have started advocating beheading and enslaving in the name of religion and caliphate against other sects of Muslims and non Muslims (non believers)."

 

What is the fundamental motivation of radical Islamic groups?

 

Could it be:

Western foreign policy

Interpretations of the Qur'an and Hadith

Culture

Economics

Ideology

Edited January 6, 2015 by Vexen

[imatfaal]

!

Moderator Note

Above quotes from here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism

[iNow]

What is the fundamental motivation of radical Islamic groups?

 

Could it be:

Yes, it could be all of those things and more. Perhaps a more fundamental question is why you think this is specific to Islam when evidence clearly suggests extremist and radical elements in essentially all religious and nonreligious ideologies alike.

Essentially all of these religious texts underlying the key belief systems have extreme and radical views. Stuff about killing infidels and nonbelievers and other heinous commands ad infinitum. I'm curious why MORE people who base so much of their lives on these texts aren't radical. After all, reading the texts it's pretty clear what should be done, and in reality it's the extremist elements that seem to be reading and following the texts most accurately (bible, Qu'ran, or otherwise).

[Vexen]

I'm curious why MORE people who base so much of their lives on these texts aren't radical. After all, reading the texts it's pretty clear what should be done, and in reality it's the extremist elements that seem to be reading and following the texts most accurately (bible, Qu'ran, or otherwise).

I want to deal with your premise.Many people completely disagree with your premise. What is your basis for claiming that the text are causing any sort of radical behaviour?

 

I know there are many causes but what mainly motivates radical Muslims?

Edited January 6, 2015 by Vexen

[studiot]

Perhaps it's due to too many non scientific discussion threads being promoted on scientific web forums.

[iNow]

What is your basis for claiming that the text are causing any sort of radical behaviour?

I'm saying that an accurate reading of these texts (the bible and Qu'ran) practically demands radical behavior, and it's more accurate to describe those humans that actually choose instead to go through life acting more moderately and inline with social norms are truly the ones not reading and following the texts accurately.

 

Any number of the commands in these books can be cited in response to your question, but that's not the point. The point is that people have to actively ignore the content of them and pick and choose ad hoc which passages to accept in order to avoid acting in radical and extremist ways.

 

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

 

I know there are many causes but what is the mainly motivates radical Muslims?

You're not going to get an accurate answer if you try to force it to be monolithic and one-dimensional as you are here. There are many causes, and those causes and motivations are different for each individual person.

[studiot]

Would the person unable to scientifically refute my suggestion identify themselves?

[Vexen]

There are many causes, and those causes and motivations are different for each individual person.

That statement implies that there is no central ideology that motivates radical Muslims. All individuals are motivated by different circumstances . Islam, as a religion, cannot be blamed for terrorism in its name.

 

Is this what you are implying?

 

My interest in this topic occurred when I read Sam Harris.

 

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-reality-of-islam

Edited January 6, 2015 by Vexen

[iNow]

All individuals are motivated by different circumstances.

Correct.

 

Islam, as a religion, cannot be blamed for terrorism in its name.

 

Is this what you are implying?

No, quite the opposite, really.

...and this applies to Christianity, as well. It is not a problem specific to Islam.

[MigL]

While the Christian Bible is still the same Bible of the 11-1200s ( era of Crusades ), Christians have somewhat modified their thinking. While there is still a lot of intolerance towards differing ideologies and morals, no Christian group advocates the conquest andbeheading of others in the sake of religion. No matter what the bible says.

 

Islam, on the other hand, still has the same barbaric views that Christians had almost 1000 yrs ago. That certainly can't be attributed to their holy book. Why have they not 'changed' with the times and also become more tolerant as the Christians have, no matter what their holy books say ? I would think there must be an alternate reason, as Vexen is suggesting.

 

Oh, and studiot...

By contributing to this thread, you are part of the problem.

Just kidding. Looking forward to your scientific views on the matter.

[iNow]

Christians have somewhat modified their thinking.

All of 'em, eh?

 

Islam, on the other hand, still has the same barbaric views that Christians had almost 1000 yrs ago.

All of 'em, eh?

[Vexen]

This is what Sam Harris said about the link between the Muslim community and radical ideology:

 

"It is time we recognized—and obliged the Muslim world to recognize—that “Muslim extremism” is not extreme among Muslims. Mainstream Islam itself represents an extremist rejection of intellectual honesty, gender equality, secular politics and genuine pluralism. The truth about Islam is as politically incorrect as it is terrifying: Islam is all fringe and no center. In Islam, we confront a civilization with an arrested history. It is as though a portal in time has opened, and the Christians of the 14th century are pouring into our world."

[studiot]

In post#25 of this thread

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/87090-the-best-model-of-higher-education/page-2

 

The OP offers the scientifically correct option of

 

Another reason

 

Here in this thread the original post shows bias because it fails to do this, but merely offers an incomplete list to choose from.

[MigL]

No you're right iNow, I'm generalising.

But some non-religious people also hold radical views, what then is their motivation.

We are not discussing ALL Muslims just those that hold extremist views, and comparing to extremists from other religions.

Islam extremists SEEM to be more radical.

Or is that only a shared delusion ?

Edited January 6, 2015 by MigL

[Vexen]

He further explains how Islam may not be a tertiary motive of radical behaviour but an inherent consequence of Islam.

 

 

"The idea that Islam is a “peaceful religion hijacked by extremists” is a dangerous fantasy—and it is now a particularly dangerous fantasy for Muslims to indulge. It is not at all clear how we should proceed in our dialogue with the Muslim world, but deluding ourselves with euphemisms is not the answer. It now appears to be a truism in foreign policy circles that real reform in the Muslim world cannot be imposed from the outside. But it is important to recognize why this is so—it is so because the Muslim world is utterly deranged by its religious tribalism. In confronting the religious literalism and ignorance of the Muslim world, we must appreciate how terrifyingly isolated Muslims have become in intellectual terms. The problem is especially acute in the Arab world. Consider: According to the United Nations’ Arab Human Development Reports, less than 2% of Arabs have access to the Internet. Arabs represent 5% of the world’s population and yet produce only 1% of the world’s books, most of them religious. In fact, Spain translates more books into Spanish each year than the entire Arab world has translated into Arabic since the ninth century."

[studiot]

So does this red action of yours mean that you do not wish to consider any other cause as possibly contributory?

[Willie71]

Any radicalized group is created with an enhanced in group mentality. Defining an out group enemy is key. They must see themselves as under attack, especially on moral, or spiritual levels. They are at war, and their way of life is threatened. They must pre-emptively defeat themselves (a double negative that means attack or invade) which is a moral imperative. Fundamentalist Christians, Radical Islamists, and extreme American Conservatives all use the same strategies.

[iNow]

Vexen - I don't disagree with Harris on this point, but I suspect you may not be comprehending my core points. In bullet form: 1) This is not a problem specific to Islam, but instead spreads to other religions (including Christianity), too and 2) all believers who accurately/closely follow the teachings of these books have to be radical since the instructions in the books themselves are radical (see links I shared, they're not there for decoration). Those moderate religious folks of whatever flavor that we all know and love as neighbors are simply not following their books either accurately or closely. They pick and choose the parts they want.

[ZVBXRPL]

War on Terror is just The Cold War Part II

 

Islam is seen to be a threat to capitalism, so something needed to be done

 

It's all propaganda and BS, always has been and always will be, until there is a revolution (hundreds of years away minimum)

 

 

 

To answer the question in the thread title

 

US foreign policy is the cause

 

How would you feel if a foreign nation bombed and invaded your country and killed thousands and thousands of your fellow citizens

 

Very angry you would be

Edited January 6, 2015 by ZVBXRPL

[studiot]

 

ZVBXRPL

How would you feel if a foreign nation bombed and invaded your country and killed thousands and thousands of your fellow citizens

 

Very angry you would be

 

 

Didn't we do just that to remove Hitler from France,

 

I think most of the French were pleased about that.

 

How ould you feel if one half of your fellow citizens killed thousands and thousands of the other half of your fellow citizens?

 

I think we gave that up several hundred years ago.

 

US foreign policy represents the most benign ever seen in history by the greatest world power of the day, and I am not american.

Edited January 6, 2015 by studiot

[MigL]

Thank you studiot, your last sentence was the most valid and important contribution made to this topic so far.

And you thought it was a useless topic ( Ha ! )

 

And no, Willie, Fundamental Christians and American conservatives do not cut people's heads off, slaughter captured males and rape wives and daughters, nor do they impose Sharia law in formerly secular areas, stone women to death for sexual improprieties, force them to cover their faces, take away their right to vote, get an education and drive.

Shall I go on ? Oh, and your prejudices are showing !

 

When are we going to stop apologizing for our way of life ? It may not be perfect and needs some work, but compared with other countries or areas of the world ?

If I didn't think I lived in one of the best countries in the world, I would exercise my freedom to move to one that I thought was better. My parents did that in 1968 when they moved from Italy ( limited opportunities ) to Canada.

Despite what ZVBXRPL says, I'd have no problem whatsoever living in the US, and I'd have no problem helping him pack if he could find a better country to live in.

Edited January 7, 2015 by MigL

[Vexen]

Thank you studiot, your last sentence was the most valid and important contribution made to this topic so far.

And you thought it was a useless topic ( Ha ! )

 

Oh, and your prejudices are showing !

 

 

Scientifically, ZVBXRPL may be correct and both studiot and MigL may be wrong.

 

"The Suicide Terrorism Database at Flinders University in Australia, which documents all suicide bombings committed in the Middle East between 1981 and 2006, demonstrates that it is politics, not religious fanaticism that leads terrorists to blow themselves up. This is supported by research conducted at the University of Chicago’s Project on Security and Terrorism, which was partly funded by the Defense Department’s Threat Reduction Agency. The authors, Robert A. Pape and James K. Feldman, examined more than 2,200 suicide attacks across the world from 1980 to present. Their research reveals that more than 90 percent of suicide attacks are directed at an occupying force."

 

"When the U.S. removed Saddam and put 1 million Sunnis on the unemployment line, the 20th-century Western-manufactured country of Iraq disappeared, and Iraqis reached back for older identities: Sunni, Shiite and Kurd." - CJ WERLEMAN, ALTERNET

 

You may have your own opinion but not your own facts.

[Willie71]

Thank you studiot, your last sentence was the most valid and important contribution made to this topic so far.

And you thought it was a useless topic ( Ha ! )

 

And no, Willie, Fundamental Christians and American conservatives do not cut people's heads off, slaughter captured males and rape wives and daughters, nor do they impose Sharia law in formerly secular areas, stone women to death for sexual improprieties, force them to cover their faces, take away their right to vote, get an education and drive.

Shall I go on ? Oh, and your prejudices are showing !

 

When are we going to stop apologizing for our way of life ? It may not be perfect and needs some work, but compared with other countries or areas of the world ?

If I didn't think I lived in one of the best countries in the world, I would exercise my freedom to move to one that I thought was better. My parents did that in 1968 when they moved from Italy ( limited opportunities ) to Canada.

Despite what ZVBXRPL says, I'd have no problem whatsoever living in the US, and I'd have no problem helping him pack if he could find a better country to live in.

 

Christians do behead people, and burn them alive. Look at what is happening in Africa. Of course it doesn't fir the western propaganda machine. American conservatives have a very high death toll on their hands. They are also responsible for systemic racism, and an obscene wealth split. Christian fundamentalists want women back in the kitchen, gays to be locked up or executed, and they want Christian Law as their governing model. Its really all the same, but the media spin is quite different.

 

Burned alive: http://thetaleofbittertruth.wordpress.com/2013/09/08/suspected-witches-burned-alive-by-christians-in-kenya/comment-page-1/

 

Beheadings: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tihomir-kukolja/witch-children-in-nigeria_b_5149931.html

 

Hating homosexuals: http://www.godhatesfags.com/

 

Execute homosexuals: http://www.christianpost.com/news/bible-says-gays-should-be-executed-and-i-believe-every-word-says-arizona-pastor-99583/

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/28/texas-public-schools-teac_n_2568828.html

 

rewriting history: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html?_r=0

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2015 by Willie71

[Vexen]

Christians do behead people, and burn them alive. Look at what is happening in Africa. Of course it doesn't fir the western propaganda machine. American conservatives have a very high death toll on their hands. They are also responsible for systemic racism, and an obscene wealth split. Christian fundamentalists want women back in the kitchen, gays to be locked up or executed, and they want Christian Law as their governing model.

 

Why did you quote MigL? Your comment wasn't related to MigL's post.

 

Yes, people do commit oppressive behaviour and violence in the name of Christianity. But, is this as prevalent as it is in the Islamic religion? I would like evidence for that.

Edited January 7, 2015 by Vexen

[Willie71]

Religion is how leaders sell their political motives to the masses. Bush defined the Axis of Evil, that the Christian Americans would fight. Just one example. It was about maintaining american interests in the Middle East. Even ISIS, when looked at strategically, is politically savvy, and the actions have strategic planning, not just religious radicalism. I haven't decided if they actually believe the Islamic religious rhetoric any more than Bush believed he was acting as a Christian invading Iraq. Our media says it's all about religion, but the facts don't support that.