Is current day math flawed?

[Valkaes]

I believe that the human made math is undefined, flawed, and tethered to a system that we have manipulated enough for it to be questioned by math students. If math is based off of logic from human minds, how is it perfect? I realize that we're still developing new concepts of math but I believe that math nowadays is flawed at certain parts. If I am incorrect, I would rather be given an example why I am wrong than have people yelling at me for my "ignorance" in this topic. If you agree, please give reasons why you believe this as well. I have many people who agree that math is flawed.

 

Now the reasons I give for math being flawed.

1. In my theories of the universe that I have shared with others, the universe is not infinite. What I mean by this is that if the universe is not infinite, how can anything else be large enough to go past the perimeters of the universe? Logically, how can there be an infinite part of a circle if that circle has limitations?

2. Infinity is not a number but a state of mind in logic, common sense, and expressions.

3. I call human minds imperfect for the reason of our ignorance and arrogant nature directed towards nature of our minds. Scientifically we were not the first "Apex predator" on this world. Yet we are believed to have the most advanced ever mathematics. But no one knows the truth. This example is more relying on the argument of science, nature vs. nurture.

4. If we can find an endless number and everything has mathematical measurements and limitations, how can something be infinity?

5. Even though the so called "endless number," Pi, has yet to reach an end we have yet to recognize the correct calculation of Pi. For 200 years ago, the calculation was different than it is now. 200 years before that it was but again different. What if 200 years from now, our version of the way to calculate Pi is but another failed concept?

 

This topic is based off of a lot of theories and ideas rather than cold hard facts. One reason this is so, is that it is extremely difficult to base a whole different concept of math when the way you've been trained to do it all your life seems to be correct. The few that agree cannot explain the feeling extremely well. But, when presented with a possible fact, they run with it until it is disproven with facts. I am one of these people. I will stick with this theory of a flawed system in current day math until I am presented with the cold truth, one way or another.

 

Thank you for your comments if you comment. Thank you for reading if you made it all the way through. Most of all thank you for sharing your opinion if you have, or will in the future. Remember that it is appreciated whether you disagree or agree with this. Good day.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Valkaes

[EdEarl]

 

If math is based off of logic from human minds, how is it perfect?

This question is illogical; thus, cannot be answered. No point in reading the remainder of your post.

[Klaynos]

In your first example your fourth line is incorrect.

 

In your second example your are missing that one third is 0.333 reoccurring. Your error is a rounding error.

 

Based on this I see no point in reading the rest of your thread.

[ajb]

None of your arguments suggest that mathematics is flawed, in fact your points 1 to 3 are nothing to do with mathematics. 4 is about understanding nature and mathematics, okay it is difficult we all agree. And finally 5, I am lost. The value of pi has not changed, pi is pi. What had happened is that we have developed better ways of approximating it and now know the decimal expansion to some huge degree. The number itself has not changed at all.

 

Who else is saying that mathematics is flawed and what do they mean by that? (I know of results in mathematics that I think are flawed, they are using, to me, the wrong concepts)

[Strange]

If I am incorrect, I would rather be given an example why I am wrong

 

OK. Here are a few of the most obvious ways you are wrong:

 

.999=x

10x=9.99

10x - x = 9x

9x=9

1x=1.

.999 = 1

 

Does 9x = 9 ?

No: 9 * .999 = 8.991

 

1. So that is one place you are wrong. (Maybe you need to buy a new calculator.)

 

And 1/3=.333

 

2. And that is another place you are wrong. New calculator or a few basic lessons in arithmetic (which is not the same as mathematics).

 

1. In my theories of the universe that I have shared with others the universe is one of two. As one universe expands, the other decreases it's size at the same rate the other increases. Therefore the universe is not infinite but expanding at a slow pace. In my reasoning if the universe is not infinite, nothing can be infinite because of the limited space the universe occupies.

 

3. This is not a theory: a theory needs to be supported by evidence.

4. This is nothing to do with mathematics.

5. There is a logical flaw in your reasoning ("begging the question"). But you should start a new thread if you want to discuss that.

 

2. Nothing is infinite in a logical sense.

 

6. Infinity is very well defined in mathematics.

 

3. I call human minds imperfect for the reason of our limited grasp of the universes way of working and relying on stories and myths to stimulate our sanities.

 

7. This is nothing to do with mathematics.

 

5. Even though the so called "endless number," Pi, has yet to reach an end we have yet to recognize the actual number of Pi. For 200 years ago, the number was different than it is now. 200 years before that it was yet again different. What if 200 years from now, our version of Pi is but another failed concept?

 

8. The value of pi has not changed.

 

This topic is based off of a lot of theories and ideas rather than cold hard facts.

 

9. It is not based on theories (because a theory needs to be supported by evidence confirming its testable predictions). It appears to be based on a small number of incorrect and/or irrelevant ideas.

 

So, there you go: 9 reasons you are wrong. You might want to round that up to 10, based on your grasp of arithmetic.

[Valkaes]

Thank you all very much. I did not realize I had so many mistakes. Yet I thank you. I shall revise my argument as much as I can before editing this forum. Please come back and share again!

[cladking]

Math is quantified natural logic. It is not a product of mans mind but rather a discovery by his genius. It works because the terms are defined. 2 + 2 will always equal 2 X 2. If the logic is sound in a math equation it will always correspond to any other form of the expression.

 

Math is never applicable to the real world. A ton of gold at new moon weighs more than a ton of aluminum at full moon. Converting to mass changes nothing except to put the onus of accurate measurement on the weigher instead of mathematicians. I would agree that "infinity" has no real world referent and is merely a place holder used to maintain logic in math. Real world numbers can become incredibly huge to the degree they effectively are greater than "infinity", but any number that exists in the real world would be estimatable with sufficient information.

 

While math is accurate by and within its definitions it is often misapplied. Equations believed to apply to the real world have no meaning until they are shown by experiment to apply to the real world.

[Valkaes]

Math is quantified natural logic. It is not a product of mans mind but rather a discovery by his genius. It works because the terms are defined. 2 + 2 will always equal 2 X 2. If the logic is sound in a math equation it will always correspond to any other form of the expression.

 

Math is never applicable to the real world. A ton of gold at new moon weighs more than a ton of aluminum at full moon. Converting to mass changes nothing except to put the onus of accurate measurement on the weigher instead of mathematicians. I would agree that "infinity" has no real world referent and is merely a place holder used to maintain logic in math. Real world numbers can become incredibly huge to the degree they effectively are greater than "infinity", but any number that exists in the real world would be estimatable with sufficient information.

 

While math is accurate by and within its definitions it is often misapplied. Equations believed to apply to the real world have no meaning until they are shown by experiment to apply to the real world.

I completely agree, yet the basis of math is sound. But the parts we have manipulated are flawed. Though they are often misapplied, they are still flawed. 2+2 will always equal 4. 30*1 will always equal 30. But the more advanced mathematics seem to be flawed. Thank you for reasoning out your opinion.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Valkaes

[cladking]

But the parts we have manipulated are flawed. The though they are often misapplied, they are still flawed. 2+2 will always equal 4. 30*1 will always equal 30.

 

I'm not sure "flawed" is the right word. "Misapplied" is probably the best word. Flawed suggests that the math is wrong and misapplied suggests it's the physics that is wrong. If a male and female giraffe produce twins then 1 + 1 = 4. Of course this math is wrong but it's the real world manifestation of addition. The logic of math is right but it doesn't apply to the real world. F = mA is right but it must be applied properly to have validity. A ton of gold as part of a system that's a hot air balloon can have no weight at all but it's still very valuable.

[Valkaes]

You aren't completely understanding what I mean. I am saying that the basics of math are fine. Addition, multiplication, subtraction, division, are completely sound with nothing wrong with them. But the higher maths are flawed in however small of a way it is. New concepts and perceptions are appearing everyday. They are clouding the true value of math. Therefore I will spend time to, not perfect, but to cleanse todays math to where it will be near flawless.The reason we can barely accept the theory that math is flawed is because we have studied it all our life and have accepted IT for the flawless mathematics we believe it to be.

[Phi for All]

You aren't completely understanding what I mean. I am saying that the basics of math are fine. Addition, multiplication, subtraction, division, are completely sound with nothing wrong with them. But the higher maths are flawed in however small of a way it is. New concepts and perceptions are appearing everyday. They are clouding the true value of math. Therefore I will spend time to, not perfect, but to cleanse todays math to where it will be near flawless.The reason we can barely accept the theory that math is flawed is because we have studied it all our life and have accepted IT for the flawless mathematics we believe it to be.

 

Potential red flag. You seem to have developed some non-mainstream, speculative ideas you call "my theories of the universe". But in trying to validate them mathematically, you find that your ideas don't work. Now you're trying to claim your ideas must be right, and that the MATH must be wrong.

 

Danger, Will Robinson!

[swansont]

You aren't completely understanding what I mean. I am saying that the basics of math are fine. Addition, multiplication, subtraction, division, are completely sound with nothing wrong with them. But the higher maths are flawed in however small of a way it is.

 

Any examples of this?

[cladking]

You aren't completely understanding what I mean. I am saying that the basics of math are fine. Addition, multiplication, subtraction, division, are completely sound with nothing wrong with them. But the higher maths are flawed in however small of a way it is. New concepts and perceptions are appearing everyday. They are clouding the true value of math. Therefore I will spend time to, not perfect, but to cleanse todays math to where it will be near flawless.The reason we can barely accept the theory that math is flawed is because we have studied it all our life and have accepted IT for the flawless mathematics we believe it to be.

 

I don't know much "higher math" than a little calculus so have no opinion here. However I must suspect you are looking at some of the nonsense in cosmology and calling it "math". As I said math is NEVER applicable to the real world so that means any equation you dream up is never applicable to the real world. Cosmology isn't "math" but rather physics and some of it is obviously bad physics. The math can be right but the physics wrong. Until experiment bears out an equation it is nothing but math and it doesn't "work" in the real world even after it's proven. We interpolate reality from experiment and extrapolate to generate new hypothesis.

[Valkaes]

 

Potential red flag. You seem to have developed some non-mainstream, speculative ideas you call "my theories of the universe". But in trying to validate them mathematically, you find that your ideas don't work. Now you're trying to claim your ideas must be right, and that the MATH must be wrong.

 

Danger, Will Robinson!

First off, I haven't claimed that my ideas do not work. I am simply saying that some math is flawed. Second off, you are dismissing my ideas without a thought to my side. How might I see things? Try that, then comment here again.

[Phi for All]

Second off, you are dismissing my ideas without a thought to my side.

 

You know what I thought?! Nice.

 

Actually, what I did was give you a valid criticism of the methodology you seem to be using to arrive at the conclusion that math is wrong. And once again, using the preponderance of evidence, I have, on the one hand, all the wealth of information and discovery that math has brought to our species, and on the other hand I have you projecting arrogance and ignorance against the human mind because you don't understand some bit of science. If I'm weighing the evidence in both hands, one side is very light. Do you see the thought I put into this?

 

It's funny, really. You say, "I call human minds imperfect for the reason of our ignorance and arrogant nature directed towards nature of our minds", and then proceed to claim that physics, based in the language of math, is wrong. Everybody but you missed this huge, glaring error, yet somehow managed to get things like GPS satellite systems and computers based on that math to work, and work well.

 

I am saying that the basics of math are fine. Addition, multiplication, subtraction, division, are completely sound with nothing wrong with them. But the higher maths are flawed in however small of a way it is. New concepts and perceptions are appearing everyday. They are clouding the true value of math. Therefore I will spend time to, not perfect, but to cleanse todays math to where it will be near flawless.

 

You seem to be saying that, because things change, our knowledge might be flawed, so we can't trust the things we think we know. I've seen this argument, and variations of it, for the last 10 years here. Theory provides us with the best possible explanations of various phenomena, and we know they can be improved upon, but the likelihood of any major theory being completely wrong is exceedingly small. Mainstream science and the explanations it provides us with are the most trustworthy answers we have. If you don't understand part of it, you should ask someone who does, rather than assume it's all wrong.

 

I'd like to know where you think the math is flawed. But before that, I'd like to know how much math you've formally studied. If you're self-taught, or didn't bother with calculus, then I know exactly where the problem is.

[Strange]

I am simply saying that some math is flawed.

 

You say that but provide no examples or any other reason to take the idea seriously.

[Phi for All]

I am simply saying that some math is flawed.

 

Here's the part I've never understood. In another thread, you admit that you've never studied physics, nor taken any higher math courses. Yet you claim that some mainstream physics theories and higher maths are flawed. How could you know? Don't you have to know something fairly well in order to tell if it's not right?

 

Do you do this with other aspects of learning? If you knew nothing about assembly line manufacturing, would you walk into Ford Motors and start telling them what they're doing wrong? When you admit you've never done what they're doing, would you expect them to be be as patient as we've been? When you start out by making several mistakes, which really make looking at the rest of your ideas pointless, are they supposed to encourage you? Or would it be better for you if the folks at Ford asked you to learn what they're really about before trying to "cleanse" them?

[swansont]

As I said math is NEVER applicable to the real world so that means any equation you dream up is never applicable to the real world.

!

Moderator Note

 

Discussion regarding this statement has been split to a new thread

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/87618-math-is-never-applicable-to-the-real-world-split-from-is-current-day-math-flawed/

 

 

[xyzt]

 

OK. Here are a few of the most obvious ways you are wrong:

 

 

Does 9x = 9 ?

No: 9 * .999 = 8.991

 

Interestingly enough, 0.(9)=1

[Strange]

Interestingly enough, 0.(9)=1

 

Somehow, I doubt the OP will accept that...

[xyzt]

 

Somehow, I doubt the OP will accept that...

Tough for him.

[fiveworlds]

Is current day math flawed?

 

 

It is a list of mundane conventions that often confuse people. That said the current system is so long established and so popular that even if it were flawed people are very unlikely to change it. Some conventions even cause weird errors which confuse people. For instance division by 0 should return the same integer which has been divided into zero parts. The easiest way to think about it is if I have a tart and I make 2 even cuts into that tart then the tart is in 3 parts. But instead of using 2 to describe how many cuts we had to make we use 3 to describe how many parts it has been cut into. Which auto-increments and therefore zero will always be an error. However doing this mathematically can be confusing for people so we don't use it. It causes games to crash all the time but it is solved with a tiny function

<script>
function a(x,y){if (y>-1){ y=y+1;}else{y=y-1;} x=x/y;return x;}
</script>

Edited February 5, 2015 by fiveworlds

[imatfaal]

 

 

It is a list of mundane conventions that often confuse people. That said the current system is so long established and so popular that even if it were flawed people are very unlikely to change it. Some conventions even cause weird errors which confuse people. For instance division by 0 should return the same integer which has been divided into zero parts. The easiest way to think about it is if I have a tart and I make 2 even cuts into that tart then the tart is in 3 parts.

 

Most of the time a tart with 2 even cuts will be in two parts. Think about it - it takes two cuts to remove a slice. Unless you would count an even cut as all the way across the diameter of the tart - in which case 2 even cuts will cut the tart into quarters - or into four pieces. Three pieces either requires un-even sizes and un-even cuts - or it requires 3 cuts.