ISIS Atrocity Tipping Point

[tar]

Overtone,

 

I am in an automatic morality hole in your eyes on about 8 counts at least. I am white, of German/Swiss/British Isle ancestory, a confirmed Presbyterian, educated at Lutheran founded institutions, a registered Republican, a former U.S. Army soldier, somone with a 401k, a male, a conservative leaning person that believes in individual responsibility, and a fellow who would rather not see an Olympic Hero of mine, wanting to be thought of as a woman.

 

If I wish to be on the side of people that do not want their clitori cut off, I believe I am on your side. Together both we need to stop Daesh.

 

Regards, TAR

 

I will take responsibility for the Crusades, and the Enlightenment, the KKK and the Great Society of Lyndon Johnson. The bombing of Hiroshima and the defeat of Hitler. Thank you very much.

Overtone,

 

Perhaps I am taking exception to your take on this because you appear to me to be stomping and burning my flag. While I was serving in the Army in Germany, during the Iranian crisis, protecting West Germany from Soviet tank invasion, I was out at a carnival in Kaiserslaughtern in civilian clothes and a group of about 7 Iranians were stompting on, and burning an American Flag, I went to intervene and saw two other American soldiers from my base, one of them black, turn and walk away. We were ordered not to engage in any incidents amoung the civilian population. I stood there with tears in my eyes, ready to fight and die if they approached me. I am crying now, because I should have died that day, protecting my flag. The bastards did not realize they were burning the symbol that was protecting their right to be at a carnival in a free country in the first place.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited February 12, 2015 by tar

[swansont]

And yet we still have large swath of the population who are sympathetic to the ideals of the confederacy, and politicians actively trying to disenfranchise voters.

[CharonY]

That is the issue if you discuss idealized positions (e.g. enlightened West and medieval East). Once you take an even slightly closer look the generalizations do not hold water well. Modernization of countries does not follow civ games logic, democracies form and break up and re-form. Laws are influenced by whomever hold power and current beliefs. Germany was a democracy for a time, before it re-instated an authoritarian regime.

Obviously external and internal forces allowed that (such as aftermath of WWI, rise of communism, economic issues etc.). The issues with modernization in the middle East are manifold but vary from region to region. Just putting one convenient label on everything is about simply not useful. The various countries in that region (which did not exist as independent countries for that long, in most cases) have achieved various degrees of democratization, humam rights achievements, modernization etc. But not all developments go hand in hand. Israel certainly has a functioning democracy, but still has religious law (including Sharia) in place. On the other hand, a number of Arab nations are super-modern, but wealth is concentrated in a small, autocratic elite. Both approaches to religion are different.

 

When it comes down to it, we are still apes sitting on a rock and throwing rock at things we do not like. Sure, some may have prettier rocks or more elaborate reasons why they throw the rocks, but in the end if we feel afraid or go hungry we still grab the next rock we can find. Only when we are sated and safe do we seem to find the power of restraint and vaguely wonder why others lack the same.

[overtone]

I am in an automatic morality hole in your eyes on about 8 counts at least.

Your label in my eyes is affixed by that tendency to extraordinarily arrogant and ignorant presumptions of what other people think, then employed as bases for "argument" on unrelated matters.

 

That approach to discussion is in my experience characteristic of "conservatives" to the point of being a field mark, and it's a waste of bandwidth here as well as being a serious obstacle to sane political discourse in the US.

 

 

 

 

Together both we need to stop Daesh.

- - -

I was out at a carnival in Kaiserslaughtern in civilian clothes and a group of about 7 Iranians were stompting on, and burning an American Flag, I went to intervene and saw two other American soldiers from my base, one of them black, turn and walk away. We were ordered not to engage in any incidents amoung the civilian population. I stood there with tears in my eyes, ready to fight and die if they approached me. I am crying now, because I should have died that day, protecting my flag. The bastards did not realize they were burning the symbol that was protecting their right to be at a carnival in a free country in the first place.

 

My first priority in "stopping Daesh", if I for some mistaken reason ended up having to step in and try to clean up somebody else's KKK after W&Co's horrible mess in Iraq, as well as their horrible mess in New Orleans and their horrible mess in Michigan and their horrible mess in D.C. and their horrible mess in Mexico and their horrible mess in Yemen and their horrible mess in Afghanistan and their horrible mess in Saudi Arabia and their continuation of the horrible mess in Iran and their contribution to the horrible mess in Palestine and so forth and so on and on and on,

 

would be to get you and everyone like you very far away from where useful work needs to be done and genuine negotiations accomplished, and keep you there. I'm going to need Iranian help in dealing with Daesh, and Iran is America's natural ally in the region, but the matter is going to be touchy. What if somebody stomps on an American flag? I couldn't deal with the perfectly legitimate grievances of the Iranians against the country that flies that flag over its Middle East corruptions and atrocities, and some loose cannon with access to weapons who hasn't got a clue about Iranians or flags either one, at the same time.

 

 

 

 

Daesh is not some group of disillusioned people that will dissolve once their grievances are addressed. Daesh are ideologists and ideologists of a particularily pesky type - religious warriors.

Likewise the KKK.

Edited February 12, 2015 by overtone

[Ten oz]

When it comes down to it, we are still apes sitting on a rock and throwing rock at things we do not like. Sure, some may have prettier rocks or more elaborate reasons why they throw the rocks, but in the end if we feel afraid or go hungry we still grab the next rock we can find. Only when we are sated and safe do we seem to find the power of restraint and vaguely wonder why others lack the same.

I totally agree!

In addition to your post not only do we throw rocks like apes but we process threats as primitively too. In the Western Europe and Northern America radical Islamic terror doesn't even register in terms of things with a moderate likelihood of killing the average person. Any number of daily activities are significantly more dangerous. In the United States about 160 children choke to death every year for example. That is more deaths per year from choking than all the deaths by Islamic terror in the decade following 9/11 in United States. Yet our response to Islamic Terror is overwhelming. Trillions of dollars worth of debt and hundreds of thousands (many report over a million) dead civilian casualties of wars. We can't be bothered to help provide clean drinking water to millions of children in Africa but we must keep our commitments to level whole cities in rural regions of the Middle East. Because after all that is how peace and democracy is fostered? It is primitive behavior that lacks any resemblance of rationality muchless proportionality.

[tar]

Overtone,

 

Overtone,

 

You don't stop Daesh with good intentions. You have to come up with a better plan than that.

I am thinking that debunking their propaganda would be a good start. You are no help with that, as you seem to have it in for "people like me", which are the people who would like to separate fiction from fact.

 

The young people drawn to the cause of Daesh are lured by promises of living some some of ideal life. I am not sure what the young men are promised, although there was a study done in an African country surrounding the youth drawn to a terrorist organisation there, that said the draw was 34 dollars a month and a cell phone, as well as food, clothes and shelter, and a cause to be part of. But the woman drawn, I think are liable to have a rude awakening. It might be good to try and find out such truths and make them well known so young folk do not go and find martydom for the benefit of some warlord.

 

There are other "people like me" who don't think it helpful to demonize the U.S. and demonize the Jews, and to glorify the holy war against the Zionists. Why do you engage in such propaganda yourself?

 

I think it might be dangerous for the Jews for instance for Iran to have nuclear weapons, as not 5 years ago the leader indicated he would like to destroy the Jews. Perhaps we do need Iran's assistance to defeat Daesh, but if you are willing to give Iran the benefit of the doubt, after they held American hostages while I was in Germany 35 years ago, then I would think you should not impune Americans for having a KKK 100 years ago.

 

Are you a "self hating" American? Or do you call another nation your own? Would you go fight for Daesh and become the "wife" of a Daesh leader, to defeat "people like me"?

 

TAR

[tar]

 

Thread,

 

Saw this on Yahoo this morning.

 

'The Birth of a Nation:' 100 Years Later, the Controversy Endures

Associated Press

February 12, 2015

 

By Hillel Italie

 

 

NEW YORK (AP) — One hundred years ago this spring, Hollywood came of age in a blaze of wonder and fury.

 

D.W. Griffith’s three-hour Civil War epic, The Birth of a Nation, was released in April 1915 after a special showing in March at President Woodrow Wilson’s White House. It is widely recognized as a blueprint for the feature-length movie and as a showcase for Griffith’s Tolstoyan command of historical narrative, from the battlefield to the front porch.

 

 

 

My comment is that the narrative is a powerful tool. It forms our opinions and guides our actions.

We need, in my opinion a story that Muslim and Jew, Christian and Aethist, South American Native and Hymalayian Sherpa can go by. Not one that makes some of the above winners and others losers, like "Birth of a Nation" glorified the KKK and demonized the blacks in an effort to paint the civil war as a failed experiment in equality. And not the narrative that Overtone paints with her the winner, the perfect heroine and "people like me" demonized losers, to not be like.

 

Regards, TAR

There are some ways we should be like Mohammed, and Jesus and Siddharta, and Nelson Mandella and Newton, and Moses and Overtone and SwansonT and CharonY...but there is like NO way we should be like Daesh. Their story stinks. Their atrosities have reached the tipping point.

 

Regards, TAR

 

!

Moderator Note

 

TAR

 

Please do not quote entire articles - you can post a "taster" and then a link

http://hosted2.ap.org/FLJAJ/96c4981832534f969182ee66c3b3cca4/Article_2015-02-12-US-The-First-Blockbuster/id-0544a1668f8f4c5b844f9cef12be77ec

 

This is an Associated Press article - so it was written in order to be sold to multiple newspaper/media sources; this means it is almost certainly not free of copyright. If you look at the bottom of the Jacksonville Times link I provided you will see the copyright notice.

 

Edited February 15, 2015 by imatfaal
Potential Copyright problem

[overtone]

You don't stop Daesh with good intentions. You have to come up with a better plan than that.

I am thinking that debunking their propaganda would be a good start. - -

Is that how we stopped the KKK from organized terrorism, in the US - or at least slowed them down a bit and forced them to change their name and put the hoods away and so forth?

 

Did we stop this guy from terrorizing his neighbors - http://www.noladefender.com/content/david-duke-mulls-run-scalises-seat - by debunking his propaganda?

 

 

 

 

There are other "people like me" who don't think it helpful to demonize the U.S. and demonize the Jews, and to glorify the holy war against the Zionists. Why do you engage in such propaganda yourself?

- - -

Are you a "self hating" American? - -

And so we see what "conservatives" mean by debunking propaganda and finding the truth.

 

Good luck with your "truth", there - but if you are capable of a moment's reflection, consider this: Daesh is currently drawing thousands of recruits who have been listening to Americans like you talk like that for their whole lives. And no, they aren't signing up for the cell phone and the regular meals.

 

 

 

I think it might be dangerous for the Jews for instance for Iran to have nuclear weapons, as not 5 years ago the leader indicated he would like to destroy the Jews.

Pakistan already has them. So does Russia - not so long from with its gulag full of Jews. Iran has a long history of greater sanity and responsibility than either of those unstable and violence prone countries (you have to go back a very long itme to find military aggression from Iran) - but Iranian nukes are a strange thing to bring up here.

 

Perhaps we do need Iran's assistance to defeat Daesh,

Not only need, but welcome. They are natural American allies in the region (one reason we imposed the Shah on them in the first place), and nothing bonds allies better than a common enemy.

 

but if you are willing to give Iran the benefit of the doubt, after they held American hostages while I was in Germany 35 years ago, then I would think you should not impune Americans for having a KKK 100 years ago.

America's KKK faction is with us until the end of the age, currently holds about a third of the seats in the US House, and had a major role in creating the Iranian hostage crisis as well as using it to gain political advantage at the expense of the American hostages. But they are ignorant and bigoted and crazy - not much use in a crisis.

 

If I were negotiating with Iran about Daesh, the Americans I would tap for advice would be the ones with the longstanding commercial and/or friendly relationships with Iran - Halliburton executives, anybody left from Reagan's inner circle of treason, the military suppliers of Iran in the Iran/Iraq War, etc. There's a wealth of experience and knowledge to employ, and they have connections. But you knew that, right?

Edited February 13, 2015 by overtone

[Delbert]

Train people to join ISIS and appear to be "normal psychopaths" which is what ISIS needs.

Presumably that would be Fifth Columnists.

[tar]

Overtone,

 

Hezbola is funded by Iran. Hezboa is against Daesh. So they are an ally. Should they make military advances into Israel, they would become our instant enemy. Not because TAR wants to defend the stars and stripes, but because we have pledged support to Israel, surrounded by Nations that would rather she was not there. Israel has our Patriot missiles to shoot down missles aimed at her schools. Do you figure the KKK built those missiles, or not?

 

If you would rather not have "people like me" in the negotiations with Iran you should publically here state with no mistake which groups and countries and ideologies you side with, and which of the same you side against.

 

You cannot float out there as some morality queen, privledged with the knowledge of the right way to be, and not specify to us, what the right way is. Sure I know who you have impuned, but who do you revere?

 

Regards, TAR

http://abcnews.go.com/International/International/fresh-offensive-hezbollah-troops-fast-approaching-israels-border/story?id=28917828.

Is there anyone in the world, other than you, that is doing it right?

Anyone whose flag and people and laws and idealogy you would defend with your life?

 

Anyone in particular who you can figure will stand against Daesh, on general principle, because they are bigots and murderers and extortionist and kidnappers and rapests and thiefs, to name just half the items on the "bad" side of the scale that is now tipped?

If this is a Shite against Sunni battle I would rather not side with either. Each has their good aspects and their bad. I don't think it is such, and Sunni Muslems should not be impuned by the actions of this criminal, unsanctioned lot. But neither should half the population of the U.S. be impuned because some idiot somewhere beats up a gay guy. We just put such individuals in jail. And when a whole big group of people act in a criminal fashion, we declare war on them.

Overtone,

 

There was a fellow at my work, that I heard had some connections with a white supremists type group. I was raised quite contrary to such leanings. I had as little to do with the guy as I could, and I did not trust his judgement. Don't impune me as KKK, or even those who voted for Duke. They may have voted for him because they agreed with his stance, on more issues than they agreed with his opponent's stances.

 

If you talk about rational debate, take the issues one at a time and discuss them rationally. Don't be predudice of any opinion I might have, just because I am a WASP.

 

I should not be lumped in with David Duke.

I have German blood in me, and my dad had a German machine gun bullet rip the nerve in his left shoulder and lodge in is side, leaving his left hand crippled for life. I am not a Nazi, nor do I hate the Germans. I think you need to paint your narratives with a much finer brush.

[MigL]

Overtone seems to display the same hatred towards those with a different world-view, as those he accuses of having towards other demographics ( Reagan, GWB, Limbaugh, Coulter, Cheney, 1/3 of the House, some of us on this forum, etc. )

He calls them ignorant, bigoted and crazy.

 

I guess that makes him a 'conservative'.

Doesn't matter, I still like him and respect his right to an opinion.

[tar]

MigL,

 

Well I don't know what set it off between Overtone and me back in some other debate, perhaps on the shutting down of the U.S. government by the Tea Party, or some other thread where he/she took my stance, which was a rational and hearthfelt stance, as an indication that I beat up blacks and gays and probably my wife, and abused children and such. I don't do those things and fight rather solidly against those that do. I see you refer to Overtone as "he", and somewhere along the line, I got an indication "she" was a "she". In her profile he/she does not specify, and it should not mater, except if "he" thinks I am impuning his manhood by referring to him as her.

 

Perhaps it would be good to know if Overtone is a male or female, gay or straight, American or Dane, Lutherin or Buddist, Black or Indian. Not that those things matter as to an objective/scientific view of the world, except that when it comes to interpersonal, and by extention international affairs, such distinctions DO matter. Not that one race, gender, ideology, nation, religion is superior and should rule the world, but that people tend to, with good reason, favor themselves over second person, and second persons over third.

 

In Overtone's case he/she is painting me as a third person, in every regard, and I simply am not. I am on some of the same teams as he/she is. I might have mutual friends work for the same company, live in the same town or nation or on the same continent or planet. Beautiful works of art, or fine establishments of social value could have been built by my relatives or people on various of the teams that I put myself on.

 

In Daesh's case, I have put them all in the "they" category. They are off all my teams. They are my enenmy, until they change their ways, or until they are dead, or I am dead. (or until I change my ways, along with 280 million Americans, which "ain't" gonna happen.) So yes, I think my team is better than Daesh, for all the "Western" reasons the OP pointed out. And I think the U.S. and her ideology and laws and people are "better" than Daesh. But I include the Croatians in Detroit, and the Jews in Sussex NJ, and the WASPs in West Virginia, the people in Hollywood and Wall Street, the people from the Red and the Blue states. America is 1000 times better than Daesh, and not because of TAR and not inspite of TAR. Although I am on this particular team and will take responsibility for her victories and defeats. And I am wholeheartedly in favor of the defeat of the Daesh team. Not Muslims, not Men, not Syrians or Iraqis...Daesh.

 

Regards, TAR

In the Army (while in Germany) I befriended three soldiers who were room mates (and female). One of them was a good buddy I traveled around Germany with (and made out with once at the end of a drunken evening,(we just laughed afterward, because it was not our relationship). One of the three was gay and had a girlfriend who was a Sergeant. At the time, being gay was against the uniform code of military justice and could get you thrown out of the Army. I did not "tell on" them, and even went on a "date" with the gay soldier (who was half black) to a Gay Bar in Kaiserslaughtern, and that act together with going to the same gay bar and dancing with my straight sergeant (married, two kids,) as a goof at the same place, put me on the same team as the gay community and the folks that were gay did not hide it from me, so I knew who was. My own roomates were a Swede from the Mid West, a black from California, and a black from the South somewhere. All straight. We were all there, protecting Germany from the threat of Soviet tank invasion, and supporting the communications of the team which was going to launch a rescue effort of the Americans held hostage in Iran.

 

So Overtone, I think I might be on many of your teams, and in this discussion I think it important, not to discriminate against folk based on their race or creed or Nationality, but based on the content of their character. And Daesh fails the character test. America passes.

 

Regards, TAR

[swansont]

Don't impune me as KKK, or even those who voted for Duke. They may have voted for him because they agreed with his stance, on more issues than they agreed with his opponent's stances.

 

If you talk about rational debate, take the issues one at a time and discuss them rationally. Don't be predudice of any opinion I might have, just because I am a WASP.

 

I should not be lumped in with David Duke.

I have German blood in me, and my dad had a German machine gun bullet rip the nerve in his left shoulder and lodge in is side, leaving his left hand crippled for life. I am not a Nazi, nor do I hate the Germans. I think you need to paint your narratives with a much finer brush.

 

WTH? Nobody had mentioned David Duke until you brought it up.

Israel has our Patriot missiles to shoot down missles aimed at her schools. Do you figure the KKK built those missiles, or not?

 

 

"WTH?", take 2.

[Phi for All]

!

Moderator Note

Comments about members and what happened in other threads are rarely relevant to the OP. Let's stay focused.

[tar]

SwansonT,

 

WTH number 1. Overtone linked an article about David Duke running for an office, losing, and getting half a milliion votes.

WTH number2. If the character of the U.S. is being impuned and half the population of the country being called bigots, I was wondering which half of the country built the Patriot missiles that are protecting Israel's schools. The bigoted half, or the unbigoted half. In other words I don't think Overtone is looking at this Daesh thing, and Iran as an ally, with complete, unbiased rationality and adherence to the facts and history of alliances and such in the area, and the U.S. role as ally of Israel in particular.

 

Regards, TAR

 

And the Lybian thing, with Daesh cutting the heads off from 21 Egyptians, tips the scales against Daesh even further.

Overtone had suggested that Iran had not attacked anybody lately. Figuring the Iran/Iraq war as not recent, I thought a reminder that Hezbolla threw some Iranian missiles at Israel 4 or 5 years ago, might be in order.

I don't know if the missles were made in Iran, but at the time Iranian financing was alledged.

[swansont]

SwansonT,

 

WTH number 1. Overtone linked an article about David Duke running for an office, losing, and getting half a milliion votes.

And how were you tied in with this, that you complained about being lumped in with Duke? As far as I can tell, the point was about whether you can take down a hate group simply by debunking propaganda.

 

 

WTH number2. If the character of the U.S. is being impuned and half the population of the country being called bigots, I was wondering which half of the country built the Patriot missiles that are protecting Israel's schools. The bigoted half, or the unbigoted half. In other words I don't think Overtone is looking at this Daesh thing, and Iran as an ally, with complete, unbiased rationality and adherence to the facts and history of alliances and such in the area, and the U.S. role as ally of Israel in particular.

 

You appear to be reading far more into the conversation than I am, or can.

 

BTW, it's "impugn". If you're going to use it in every other sentence, please spell it correctly.

[overtone]

If you would rather not have "people like me" in the negotiations with Iran you should publically here state with no mistake which groups and countries and ideologies you side with

It's got nothing to do with "sides", or countries, or ideologies.

 

We need the Iranians, and fortunately enough Iranians are probably the friendliest people in the entire area by nature, the best disposed to Americans by character and attitude (ask anyone who has traveled in the region as a civilian among civilians). So the alliance is there to be made. But not by someone who can't even handle seeing a Chinese copy of their flag abused in foreign country by foreigners they don't know - and can't recognize the grievances of.

 

 

 

 

 

Well I don't know what set it off between Overtone and me back in some other debate, perhaps on the shutting down of the U.S. government by the Tea Party, or some other thread where he/she took my stance, which was a rational and hearthfelt stance, as an indication that I beat up blacks and gays and probably my wife, and abused children and such. - -

- - -- - In Overtone's case he/she is painting me as a third person, in every regard, - -

 

Where are you getting this bs, and why are you posting it?

 

Your continual attempts to project your fantasies into other people, deflect issues into personalities you can attack, and in general avoid the matters posted in front of you, have led you into nothing but error and pratfall. You don't know much about me - the odds of correctly guessing anything personal I haven't posted would be very low by chance alone, and since you are badly confused (by years of hate radio and similar US culturally specific disinformation - there is no other source) your particular odds are near zero.

 

 

 

 

 

Overtone had suggested that Iran had not attacked anybody lately. Figuring the Iran/Iraq war as not recent, I thought a reminder that Hezbollah threw some Iranian missiles at Israel 4 or 5 years ago, might be in order.

Iraq was the aggressor in the Iran/Iraq War - backed by the US, which has attacked Iran many times without provocation. Hezbollah is Lebanese, not Iranian, and has not been the aggressor in its conflict with Israel (Israel's army is currently occupying territory belonging to Hezbollah's country, and has been since before Hezbollah was founded).

 

Iran has not attacked another country in a very long time. Hundreds of years? No modern examples. Couple that with its unusually humane treatment of hostages and prisoners for the region (better than the US, for example, in that theater) and other cultural factors, and the situation is very hopeful for decent outcomes from honest negotiations.

 

 

 

 

 

Reagan, GWB, Limbaugh, Coulter, Cheney, 1/3 of the House, some of us on this forum, etc. )

He calls them ignorant, bigoted and crazy.

 

I never called Cheney ignorant, or bigoted, or crazy. I never called Reagan crazy. I never called W bigoted. I never called Coulter ignorant. And so forth.

Just give up on the personal stuff. There's no reason anyone here should be making their mouth a repeater for Rush Limbaugh's asshole.

Edited February 17, 2015 by overtone

[Airbrush]

How can ISIS have long term success when they are based on delusion? It takes delusional people to want to join. The tactical advantage they have is a large supply of delusional people willing to blow themselves up, or fight in hopeless battles believing they will go to heaven. They are serving the shepherds who are talented, skilled manipulators, . But strategically the leaders are as delusional as Hitler to believe they can conquer ALL countries combined.

 

Impressionable youths, who have no clear path in life so they may join criminal gangs for identity, need to be channeled into something positive and productive, something like boy scouts where they learn boy scout virtues and values, and also science, math, critical thinking, and perhaps training for a career. They also need to be educated in moderate Islam by the best, most charismatic imams that can be found. These impressionable youths can become well versed in the theory of Santa Claus, that their precious "God" is just the good lie about a benevolent spirit that lives in our hearts.

 

How much longer will the supply of oil last in the Middle East? When the oil is gone I think ISIS will also dry up. Their money comes from doners who are wealthy only because of oil. When oil is gone, the M.E. will once again become inconsequential on the world stage, and they can return to the Dark Ages of religion and superstition.

 

How much genius does it take for people to simply suck oil out of the ground and sell it?

Edited February 17, 2015 by Airbrush

[overtone]

 

 

How can ISIS have long term success when they are based on delusion? It takes delusional people to want to join.

So they can last as long as a delusion based organization that meets its members basic needs and spiritual yearnings.

[swansont]

How can ISIS have long term success when they are based on delusion? It takes delusional people to want to join.

 

I suppose that any ideological organization could be seen as being based on delusion. Even run-of-the-mill nationalism, where people join up to fight. How could the opponents be fighting for their side? They must be delusional! But many nations have had long-term success.

[CharonY]

I would think factors such as economic stability will have a larger influence on long-term success.

[Ten oz]

How much longer will the supply of oil last in the Middle East? When the oil is gone I think ISIS will also dry up. Their money comes from doners who are wealthy only because of oil. When oil is gone, the M.E. will once again become inconsequential on the world stage, and they can return to the Dark Ages of religion and superstition.

 

How much genius does it take for people to simply suck oil out of the ground and sell it?

Passions are raised when racism or islamophobia is brought into the conversation but sometimes it seems unavoidable to mention. In these discussion about ISIS or radical Islamic terrorism there seems to be a persistent view where large groups of people are lumped together. Whether it is arguing that Islam itself is a violent religion and thusly implying all it's followers are combatants to some extent or simply lumping the entire Middle East together as a singular place the West either is or should be at war with. There is a lot of generalizing and it seems driven by cultural differences more so than facts.

Why denounce the whole Middle East? What does your anger towards ISIS have to do with Turkey? What about Jordan who is the fighting ISIS? Why should we hate them all?

[tar]

SwansonT,

 

Thanks, I will use the correct spelling of impugn from now on.

 

Overtone,

 

"It's got nothing to do with "sides", or countries, or ideologies."

 

I am thinking that it does. Call it a hypothesis, but when a Boston Red Sox fan walks in front of a section at Yankee stadium, somebody is likey to throw a peanut at him, even if its just good natured rivalry behavior. In the case of Daesh there is a particular "story" that they are following, and they need a villian inorder to be the hero. It happens to be the Jews, and the U.S. and anybody that fights on the Zionist side against them. And as we agree that Daesh members are bigots in their indiscriminant killing of anyone who is Christian or Jew or appears at all to "side" with such against them, it appears that sides and ideologies have a lot to do with this.

 

So if you feel that Israel has stolen Palestinian land or if you feel they bought it with international blessing as a homeland, you are liable to be on one "side" or the other.

 

Interesting article on the web I saw earlier was about a writer who walked around Paris for 10 hrs. dressed as a Jew, and took much verbal abuse. This is contrary to how I would have expected enlightened Frenchmen to behave. Somewhat bigoted on the face. Are they Anti-semites, or are they pro Hezbola? Depends on which side they are on in terms of whether Israel's homeland is a good idea or a bad one.

 

I do not agree with your characterization of the Jews, and I have my own characterisation of the Iranians that differs slightly from yours, and yes its skewed by seeing that group of Iranians burning my flag, and by seeing the hostages returned from long captivity in Iran, in Lanstuhl at the army hospital. But that does not make me incapable of rational argument, or incapable of giving an Iranian the benefit of the doubt. But several years back when Israel and Hezbola were at war, the Iranian were on Hezbola's "side", not the Israeli's. And several years back when Israel and Hezbola were at war, the U.S. was on Israel's side, not Hezbola's. I understand that Hezbola takes care of her people and Iran takes care of them, and it's all against the evil Zionists that have caused them their misery and despair...except I am on the Zionist "side", by virtue of my country's support of Israel. So the side thing, is important to the discussion.

 

And as the "story" goes, ideology is also important, because Sharia law, is basically living as Mohammed lived, and Jewish tradition is to basically live as Moses lived, and Christian tradition is to basically live as Jesus lived, and Western rationists basically live like Socrates lived...and so on. Ideology is central to the discussion.

 

And "countries" have everything to do with it. Syria, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Eqypt, Lybia, U.S., Russia, Italy, France...and Daesh claiming an Islamic State exists in any territory it controls. Nationalist tendencies have a lot to do with it.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited February 18, 2015 by tar

[Airbrush]

Passions are raised when racism or islamophobia is brought into the conversation but sometimes it seems unavoidable to mention. In these discussion about ISIS or radical Islamic terrorism there seems to be a persistent view where large groups of people are lumped together. Whether it is arguing that Islam itself is a violent religion and thusly implying all it's followers are combatants to some extent or simply lumping the entire Middle East together as a singular place the West either is or should be at war with. There is a lot of generalizing and it seems driven by cultural differences more so than facts.

Why denounce the whole Middle East? What does your anger towards ISIS have to do with Turkey? What about Jordan who is the fighting ISIS? Why should we hate them all?

 

I'm not denouncing the Middle East or hating anyone (except ISIS leadership), I'm only observing how that region has an undue influence over the rest of the world, only because of OIL. When the oil is gone (or when we can force the price of oil down far enough) the Middle East will lose that kind of influence. How is that denouncing or hating anyone? I'm merely recognizing economic forces.

 

If I was a hater, would I propose getting problem ME youths into Boy Scouts? Would I propose a search for the most charismatic imams to run re-education camps?

 

Maybe intentionally burning people alive will not prove to be a tipping point. 40% of all imports into the USA pass through the port of Los Angeles at Long Beach. Can you think of any group that would want to nuke the Port of LA more than ISIS would? That would be more of a tipping point. Rationally most people of most nations realize how interconnected the world is and to cripple the USA would have a negative effect on the world's economy. However, ISIS is such a severe group delusion that their leadership would rationalize that setting off a nuclear bomb, or dirty bomb, in the port of LA would be effective and much more severe an attack on the USA than 9/11 was, and think it would force the US to give up and join the ISIS caliphate. Or could it have the positive effect of forcing the USA to become more self-reliant, when it cannot depend upon foreign imports?

 

Everyone is delusional to some degree about something. Certainly Americans and others are delusional in some ways, but the ISIS delusion is much more severe and insidious. It is on a par with Hitler's or Tojo's plans for world conquest, a delusion that resulted in the needless death of millions, as well as Trillions of dollars spent (in today's dollars) on military operations. But that was a boon for the military-industrial complex and pulled the USA out of the depression into a period of unpresedented economic growth.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Airbrush

[swansont]

Everyone is delusional to some degree about something. Certainly Americans and others are delusional in some ways, but the ISIS delusion is much more severe and insidious. It is on a par with Hitler's or Tojo's plans for world conquest, a delusion that resulted in the needless death of millions, as well as Trillions of dollars spent (in today's dollars) on military operations. But that was a boon for the military-industrial complex and pulled the USA out of the depression into a period of unpresedented economic growth.

 

What about the delusion that you can invade a country on false pretenses, expect to be hailed as liberators, set up a democracy, have it work from the outset, and be out in just a couple of years? That level of delusion?