How to defeat political Islam

[Hans de Vries]

@CharonY

Look at what Salafi/Islamist parties are proposing, based on sharia law:

[the list is incomplete]

- Obligatory veiling for women. In more severe cases, disallowing women from going outside without first asking permission of male family member.

- reducing women's share in inheritance to half of what a man gets.

- reducing the weight of women's testimony at court to half of testimony of men

- complete ban on preaching of any religion other than Islam

- death penalty for apostasy, i.e. any Muslim who converts to other religion must be killed if he does not repent within 3 days.

- death penalty for adultery if adulterers are married, 100 lashes and expulsion from the city if they are not married

- death penalty for homosexuality

- Leving a penalty tax on non-Muslims (jizya) and banning them from making any public display of their religions

 

These are more severe issues than church taxes and creationism at schools, aren't they? No politician in the west would even dare to propose something like that. But in the Arab/Muslim world politicians and clerics alike openly talk about these and sometimes they even win elections. In several countries (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Sudan) these policies are actively applied. Shouldn't it change? Shouldn't the Muslim world become tolerant like us?

 

@dimreepr

I don't know what the solution is and that's why I'm asking.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Hans de Vries

[dimreepr]

@dimreepr

I don't know what the solution is and that's why I'm asking.

 

 

I assumed the post was an extension of your post #15 and the OP, in that you want to ‘defeat/smash’ “political Islam” sounds like force to me.

 

The solution IMO is a learned peaceful (wise) man ; history suggests he will emerge, hopefully before too much more blood is shed.

[Airbrush]

The solution is education, and by education I mean REAL education about how the real world really works, not fantasies and verses from the holy book.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Airbrush

[dimreepr]

Education is very important and is a solution to many of the world’s problems.

In this case however I feel the time to educate, as a solution, is past; given ISIS’s opposition to education, moreover it can be argued they are using education, in a dark twisted way, to recruit soldiers.

[CharonY]

I think it is naive to try to reduce numerous issues into a single element, even something as powerful as religion. Likewise, it is somewhat simplistic to believe that all the existing issues would suddenly vanish with religion.

Truth is that religion still has different effects on society throughout Western democracies with the French stance being the strongest in terms of separation of church and state. Now, the real question is why despite all that even religion-inspired laws (including anti-homosexuality policies) are as a whole much less intrusive.

I would say that this requires a more thorough study of European history. It would take much more work to even attempt and answer OP is asking, but just look at German history. In 1620 Prussia criminalizes sodomy and has the death sentence on it. 1794 this was abolished. But at the formation of the German Reich in 1871 it became a crime again (the famous paragraph 175). Now here is the interesting thing.

In 1871 punishment was imprisonment and the potential loss of civil rights. In the fledgling democratic Weimar Republic there was a movement to abolish that law unsuccessfully and in 1935 the Nazis expanded the scope and punishment of this law. Of course, many think that after WWII Europe became a democratic paradise of individual freedom and whatnot, but that was not the case. Tens of thousand men were indicted and served prison sentences (not to mention other forms of discrimination) post-war as the paragraph remained in place in the BRD. Note that the law was also aimed against male homosexuality. So when was paragraph 175 finally removed? 1994. As you can see, it took an enormous amount of time to remove a discriminatory law and even then, homosexuals still do not have the same rights in Germany.

 

Despite similar religious backgrounds, other European countries had different developments in this regard, but the notion of same rights for everyone regardless of sexual orientation, gender or race is really a modern development. While people are still religious (as polls indicate) and still have influence on legislature, it has become more about maintaining discriminatory elements from the past, rather than setting up new ones (which makes things even more hopeful for future generations).

 

Now the question is then, what, in recent times has triggered these changes and can those be enacted in other countries. The lack of religiosity is, IMO more a symptom rather than the cause as those countries who enforce secularism (at least in public places) did not perform significantly better than their peers.

Edited February 17, 2015 by CharonY

[Airbrush]

Education is very important and is a solution to many of the world’s problems.

In this case however I feel the time to educate, as a solution, is past; given ISIS’s opposition to education, moreover it can be argued they are using education, in a dark twisted way, to recruit soldiers.

 

The time to educate is never past. You can always change people if they are exposed to the truth and facts through education. The problem is how to enlighten them? South Koreans send DVDs by balloons into the north. We need to do better than ISIS in the media. They have been winning the propaganda war so far.

 

If ISIS is using dark twisted education to recruit, then we need to do better by exposing HOW it is dark and twisted. To do that you need the services of the most charismatic imams, which is the mantra I keep repeating. We need to sew dissent in the ranks, so they quit the fight.

[Hans de Vries]

Are you sure about education? Zawahiri is a surgeon educated in a western university, Bin Laden attended the best secular schools and in ISIS there are people who are engineers. So lack of education is certainly not the only problem.

[dimreepr]

 

The time to educate is never past. You can always change people if they are exposed to the truth and facts through education. The problem is how to enlighten them? South Koreans send DVDs by balloons into the north. We need to do better than ISIS in the media. They have been winning the propaganda war so far.

 

If ISIS is using dark twisted education to recruit, then we need to do better by exposing HOW it is dark and twisted. To do that you need the services of the most charismatic imams, which is the mantra I keep repeating. We need to sew dissent in the ranks, so they quit the fight.

 

 

 

The problem with propaganda is, if it’s your side you’ll tend to believe it, if it’s the other side you’ll tend to disbelieve it; some may say an insurmountable hurdle.

 

“One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter” a truism so frequently overlooked, regularly at the expense of the terrorised.

[swansont]

Are you sure about education? Zawahiri is a surgeon educated in a western university, Bin Laden attended the best secular schools and in ISIS there are people who are engineers. So lack of education is certainly not the only problem.

 

I think the education issue is with the followers, not the bosses. People who haven't learned to think critically are probably much more susceptible to charismatic leaders.

[CharonY]

Education is part of the puzzle. But first one would need political stability. If people live under conditions where wars or civil wars are likely, it is almost obvious why the perspective of human lives will be skewed. A second aspect is economic stability and having access to it. Education becomes important if you expect citizens to participate in a democratic process. Otherwise a small elite will remain the ruling power.

[Airbrush]

 

 

 

The problem with propaganda is, if it’s your side you’ll tend to believe it, if it’s the other side you’ll tend to disbelieve it; some may say an insurmountable hurdle.

 

“One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter” a truism so frequently overlooked, regularly at the expense of the terrorised.

 

Then this is a debate between the forces of moderate Islam and extreme Islam. Challenge them to debates using the most charismatic imams. Have the debates on media that ISIS followers use. Tape the debates and drop them into enslaved populations. The good guys should win the debates because they make better more reasonable arguments, unless you believe ISIS are freedom fighters and not terrorists.

 

You also need to find something productive for disillusioned ISIS followers to do while they are deprogrammed.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Airbrush

[dimreepr]

 

Then this is a debate between the forces of moderate Islam and extreme Islam.

 

 

How did you manage to deduce that from my post?

 

 

The good guys should win the debates because they make better arguments

 

 

 

Who are the good guys? Besides, ‘better propaganda’ doesn’t equate to ‘better argument’.

 

 

unless you believe ISIS are freedom fighters and not terrorists.

 

 

It doesn’t matter what I believe but to those that believe western ideals are poison, of course their freedom fighters.

 

 

You also need to find something productive for disillusioned ISIS followers to do while they are deprogrammed.

 

 

Isn’t that just the antipode of programmed?

Edited February 18, 2015 by dimreepr

[Airbrush]

How did you manage to deduce that from my post?

 

Who are the good guys? Besides, ‘better propaganda’ doesn’t equate to ‘better argument’.

 

It doesn’t matter what I believe but to those that believe western ideals are poison, of course their freedom fighters.

 

Isn’t that just the antipode of programmed?

 

"...While the term propaganda has acquired a strongly negative connotation by association with its most manipulative and jingoistic examples, propaganda in its original sense was neutral and could refer to uses that were generally positive, such as public health recommendations, signs encouraging citizens to participate in a census or election, or messages encouraging persons to report crimes to law enforcement...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

 

When a brutal, violent group is challenging ALL nations, majority rules, it is obvious WHO are the bad guys. In movies the bad guys are always the most cruel. We have all been conditioned to this all our lives, even if we think we are not.

 

Better propaganda DOES equate to better argument. "Better propaganda" is truthful propaganda. If propaganda is truthful, it should win a debate over deceptive propaganda. A good debater can show how deceptive the ISIS recruitment machine is.

 

Jihadis are absolutely NOT "freedom fighters" because they are imposing their will upon conquered populations. Even THEY know they are fighting AGAINST freedom. Freedom is contrary to an Islamic Caliphate. This is very similar to the Nazis in WWII.

 

The Vietnam war was a huge delusion. That war accomplished nothing but kill a lot of people. Years before we gave up there, the war protests were raging across the USA and other nations. But our govt had noble intentions, to stop communism, and support freedom, a democratic South Vietnam, which happened to be corrupt and not worth supporting. But we didn't know that until it was too late.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Airbrush

[Hans de Vries]

I have just watched an excerpt from Al Azhar University speech by Egyptian President Abdel Fatteh Al Sisi. You can feel some "novelty" in what he says - instead of usual shifting of responsibility and blaming everything on America, he recognized that something is wrong with Islam. He did this in a very subtle way, yet his message is clear. If he was just a normal Egyptian and not a president with the military on his side, he would be put to jail for blasphemy.

 

Just watch, it's short and powerful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEhNarfrlec

 

[Airbrush]

Are you sure about education? Zawahiri is a surgeon educated in a western university, Bin Laden attended the best secular schools and in ISIS there are people who are engineers. So lack of education is certainly not the only problem.

 

To be educated in ONE field does not make a comprehensive thinker. It may give the person a false sense of understanding. Remember the saying "a little knowledge is dangerous"? An "educated" person can be as delusional as anyone else in EVERY field, except in their ONE field of study.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Airbrush

[Bill Angel]

I have just watched an excerpt from Al Azhar University speech by Egyptian President Abdel Fatteh Al Sisi. You can feel some "novelty" in what he says - instead of usual shifting of responsibility and blaming everything on America, he recognized that something is wrong with Islam. He did this in a very subtle way, yet his message is clear. If he was just a normal Egyptian and not a president with the military on his side, he would be put to jail for blasphemy.

 

Just watch, it's short and powerful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEhNarfrlec

 

He won't be put in jail for blasphemy, but he will likely end up on the same "hit list" that Anwar Sadat was put on. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Anwar_Sadat

[dimreepr]

 

"...While the term propaganda has acquired a strongly negative connotation by association with its most manipulative and jingoistic examples, propaganda in its original sense was neutral and could refer to uses that were generally positive, such as public health recommendations, signs encouraging citizens to participate in a census or election, or messages encouraging persons to report crimes to law enforcement...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

 

When a brutal, violent group is challenging ALL nations, majority rules, it is obvious WHO are the bad guys. In movies the bad guys are always the most cruel. We have all been conditioned to this all our lives, even if we think we are not.

 

Better propaganda DOES equate to better argument. "Better propaganda" is truthful propaganda. If propaganda is truthful, it should win a debate over deceptive propaganda. A good debater can show how deceptive the ISIS recruitment machine is.

 

Jihadis are absolutely NOT "freedom fighters" because they are imposing their will upon conquered populations. Even THEY know they are fighting AGAINST freedom. Freedom is contrary to an Islamic Caliphate. This is very similar to the Nazis in WWII.

 

The Vietnam war was a huge delusion. That war accomplished nothing but kill a lot of people. Years before we gave up there, the war protests were raging across the USA and other nations. But our govt had noble intentions, to stop communism, and support freedom, a democratic South Vietnam, which happened to be corrupt and not worth supporting. But we didn't know that until it was too late.

 

 

 

It’s a little naive to think you can win over people, who have entrenched views or who know their right, however correct the argument.

 

It’s very naive to think this problem is as simplistic as the good guys verses the bad guys; unless you think its OK for the good guys to imprison without trial and torture.

[Airbrush]

 

 

 

It’s a little naive to think you can win over people, who have entrenched views or who know their right, however correct the argument.

 

It’s very naive to think this problem is as simplistic as the good guys verses the bad guys; unless you think its OK for the good guys to imprison without trial and torture.

 

The leaders of ISIS have entrenched views. Many may be Baathists friends of Hussein. They have nothing to lose, since they were as good as dead at the time Hussein was captured and executed. They may not be religious at all, but know they must act like pious holy men to their followers. They learned cruelty from the master of all thugs, Saddam.

 

The FOLLOWERS may not have entrenched views, since they were probably told lies to get them to join the fight. After they have been fighting in 110 degree heat, wearing scarves and ski masks, hauling around heavy ammo, breathing dust from the technical in front, you see your friends killed, and the food is not quite as good as they expected. They may feel abused by their commanding officers (think how strict the command structure is in totalitarian regimes), they may DEFECT based on finding a DVD of a debate between an imam expressing the extremist view, and a moderate imam (that is carefully selected to be a better debater and more charismatic than the opposition) that can make the extremists look foolish. That is what I mean by truthful propaganda.

 

Like I said, in movies the bad guys are always more cruel than the good guys.

 

Are the girls recruited (one in six recruits are females) AWARE the recruiters burn people alive? Imagine how strict and militaristic the handlers are. They must treat recruits very harshly so they will live in fear and submit to their orders without question. They cry themselves to sleep thinking "What the hell did I get myself into?!"

Edited February 21, 2015 by Airbrush

[dimreepr]

 

The leaders of ISIS have entrenched views. Many may be Baathists friends of Hussein. They have nothing to lose, since they were as good as dead at the time Hussein was captured and executed. They may not be religious at all, but know they must act like pious holy men to their followers. They learned cruelty from the master of all thugs, Saddam.

 

The FOLLOWERS may not have entrenched views, since they were probably told lies to get them to join the fight. After they have been fighting in 110 degree heat, wearing scarves and ski masks, hauling around heavy ammo, breathing dust from the technical in front, you see your friends killed, and the food is not quite as good as they expected. They may feel abused by their commanding officers (think how strict the command structure is in totalitarian regimes), they may DEFECT based on finding a DVD of a debate between an imam expressing the extremist view, and a moderate imam (that is carefully selected to be a better debater and more charismatic than the opposition) that can make the extremists look foolish. That is what I mean by truthful propaganda.

 

 

 

The chances of a DVD (which is of little more value than a pamphlet) changing the minds of anyone who hasn’t already decided to leave is minimal; after all it takes weeks to de-program the converted, what chance does a DVD/pamphlet really have.

 

 

Like I said, in movies the bad guys are always more cruel than the good guys.

 

 

 

 

 

As I tried to imply this isn’t a movie; the good guys can be just as cruel.

[Airbrush]

The chances of a DVD (which is of little more value than a pamphlet) changing the minds of anyone who hasn’t already decided to leave is minimal; after all it takes weeks to de-program the converted, what chance does a DVD/pamphlet really have.

 

As I tried to imply this isn’t a movie; the good guys can be just as cruel.

 

OK, let's forget about that idea, since you decided it would have minimal value, and you are an authority on what it takes to change an ISIS recruit's mind.

 

It doesn't matter if the good guys CAN be just as cruel. ISIS has publically demonstrated they are the MOST cruel. What has been implanted in the minds of the recruits from childhood and how deeply committed are they to ISIS? I think only superficially. They were promised good pay. I propose most of them were lied to, are borderline disillusioned, and there may be a tipping point for defecting that is not as difficult as you suggest. A DVD debate could have an impact.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Airbrush

[dimreepr]

 

OK, let's forget about that idea, since you decided it would have minimal value, and you are an authority on what it takes to change an ISIS recruit's mind.

 

 

 

 

Let’s not start down the logical fallacy path just stick to the topic.

 

 

 

 

It doesn't matter if the good guys CAN be just as cruel.

 

 

 

OK wrong choice of words, it should read “the good guys HAVE been just as cruel”.

 

 

 

What has been implanted in the minds of the recruits from childhood and how deeply committed are they to ISIS? I think only superficially.

 

 

 

I provided a link to back my claim; perhaps you’d like to back this supposition/guess.

Edited February 21, 2015 by dimreepr

[Hans de Vries]

Well, blowing oneself up (even western converts to Islam have done that) at a young age in exchange for imaginary virgins in imaginary paradise created by imaginary deity requires immensely strong faith. I don't see such thing being committed by even very religious person, much less by an atheist. Such an act requires literally maniacal devotion - so strong that one simply can think of nothing else.

[Airbrush]

Let’s not start down the logical fallacy path just stick to the topic.

 

OK wrong choice of words, it should read “the good guys HAVE been just as cruel”.

 

I provided a link to back my claim; perhaps you’d like to back this supposition/guess.

 

You stated: "The chances of a DVD (which is of little more value than a pamphlet) changing the minds of anyone who hasn’t already decided to leave is minimal; after all it takes weeks to de-program the converted, what chance does a DVD/pamphlet really have."

 

You don't know what the value of a deprogramming DVD is. Have you seen them all and decided they are ineffective? "It has little more value than a pamphlet?" How do you know? Did you do a study and find out DVDs are only as effective as a pamphlet? You are guilty of logical errors. You don't know how hard it is to change the mind of a recruit that was lied to and abused after they joined ISIS. Cults always bait and switch.

 

I read your link, which is quite good, and it does not support your supposition that recruits cannot be reached by a DVD.

 

"....Former cult members, esepcially former jihadists educated about brainwashing and undue influence are the ideal method to connect, especially with young people. Invite us into mosques, churches and synagogues; police stations and politicians' offices; schools, libraries and town meetings. Community leaders are already talking about how terrorism prevention should be put on a par with anti-bullying, substance abuse and suicide prevention in our schools. They are looking for counternarratives to Flames of War and other ISIS propaganda and some have even suggested that the Department of Homeland Security offer a prize for the best counter message. This counter-narrative approach needs to be combined with the knowledge of cults, the social science of influence, theology and counter-terrorism expertise."

 

Now you are going to argue that DVD debates alone will not change anyone's mind. Certainly. It will be hard to get any message to a recruit that is being programmed. Recruits are watched every minute of every day and will be prevented from watching ANY DVDs or any TV or see any movies, or any news, or do ANYTHING they may have enjoyed doing before they were tricked into joining. Certainly they are all disillusioned. They are brutalized and terrorized until they become robots for the leaders. They can be deprogrammed, and you don't know how long it will take.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Airbrush

[dimreepr]

 

You stated: "The chances of a DVD (which is of little more value than a pamphlet) changing the minds of anyone who hasn’t already decided to leave is minimal; after all it takes weeks to de-program the converted, what chance does a DVD/pamphlet really have."

 

 

 

You stated “and you are an authority on what it takes to change an ISIS recruit’s mind.”

Which, is what I clearly quoted and replied to; so you compound the original fallacy with another; not great debating tactics.

 

 

I read your link, which is quite good, and it does not support your supposition that recruits cannot be reached by a DVD.

 

 

 

 

I never made the claim (bolded), I said the chances are minimal, so yet another fallacy.

 

 

 

Now you are going to argue that DVD debates alone will not change anyone's mind. Certainly. It will be hard to get any message to a recruit that is being programmed. Recruits are watched every minute of every day and will be prevented from watching ANY DVDs or any TV or see any movies, or any news, or do ANYTHING they may have enjoyed doing before they were tricked into joining. Certainly they are all disillusioned. They are brutalized and terrorized until they become robots for the leaders.

 

 

 

I think I’ll decide how I argue my case, but thank you for outlining some of the reasons why your approach is unlikely to work.

 

 

 

They can be deprogrammed, and you don't know how long it will take.

 

 

 

I know it will take more than the length of a DVD; that they will probably never see anyway.

Besides there are doubts that de-programming even works effectively.

 

“Professor of psychiatry Saul Levine suggests that it is doubtful that deprogramming helps many people and goes on to say that it actually causes harm to the victim by very nature of the deprogramming. For deprogramming to work, the victim must be convinced that they joined a religious group against their will. They then must renounce responsibility and accept that in some mysterious way that their minds were controlled. It is Levine's professional opinion that once deprogrammed, a person would never be certain that they were really doing what they want. He states that deprogramming destroys a person's identity and is likely to create permanent anxiety about freedom of choice and leave the deprogrammed subject dependent upon the guidance and advice of others. "Fundamentally deprogramming denies choice and creates dependency. It robs people of their sense of responsibility. Instead of encouraging people to accept that they made a mistake, it encourages people to deny their actions and blame others.”

[Ten oz]

ISIS doesn't post their beheadings online because they don't want western retaliation. Where is the line here between appeasement and a strong response?