Forcing an organism to evolve/adapt by exposing to radiation, and stressful environment. What organism shal I use?

[lunaprey]

Hi everyone,

I'd like to do an experiment. I will have 2 groups of organisms. The first will be subjected to small amounts of radiation. The other will be the control. I will then introduce both groups to circumstances that would stress them in the hopes of creating an opportunity for a good mutation to produce offspring that are better equipped for the stressful environment. I hypothesize that the group exposed to radiation will suffer population losses initially, but then enjoy a greater flexibility in handling it's stressful environment due to the increased likelihood of a mutation that might help the organism ot better adapt.

I was wondering if you guys could suggest an organism that I might use for this experiment? I'm 18, and doing this mostly out of curiosity. My budget is perhaps 500 dollars. Plants are prefered!

Also, do you guys think this might even have a possibility of success?

Edited February 16, 2015 by lunaprey

[Wolfhnd]

"Also, do you guys think this might even have a possibility of success?"

 

You would be better using something with a rapid population turn over.

 

Radiation is dangerous you know?

 

I'm certain that if you do it right and you have a large enough population you would be successful in demonstrating some favorable mutations. Labs usually use bacteria for this sort of thing.

[swansont]

I think a lot of people have used bacteria for such experiments, because of the rapid population turnover Wolfhnd mentioned.

[StringJunky]

Go halfway and consider cyanobacteria which are the precursors of plants and photosynthesise.

[lunaprey]

I'd like to perform this experiment in my room, so I'd have to pick something that doesn't smell badly, and certainly I don't want to risk like harming my room. Could you guys please offer some suggestions on bacteria or cyanobacteria they don't take over my bedroom and make me sick, yet still reproduces quickly enough that I can see measurable results within the timespan of say.. 5 months to a year?

[fiveworlds]

Radiation is dangerous you know?

 

Not if the appropriate cautions are taken the apparatus wouldn't necessarily have to be big maybe a fish-tank with the right rocks

 

yet still reproduces quickly enough that I can see measurable results within the timespan of say.. 5 months to a year?

 

Maybe set up a recording of the two if you can but I wouldn't expect anything too quickly

Edited February 16, 2015 by fiveworlds

[lunaprey]

Yes, a recording is a great idea!

[John Cuthber]

You have two competing "stressors".

The "whatever" that you plan to use (I'm guessing maybe temperature or nutrient deficiency or the presence of something toxic) and

The radiation.

If the radiation dose is low enough that it isn't a serious stressor then it's not doing much- so it's not producing much mutation.

If, on the other hand, it's causing serious rates of mutation, then it's likely to kill everything if it's given a long time.

 

The easiest way I can see to get round that is to expose them to a brief period of radiation.

However the sort of radiation source that will bring about significant rates of mutations in a short period of time isn't suitable for a home-experiment.

 

At the least, you need to stop and consider exactly what you are trying to achieve here, and how you might go about it.

For the sake of discussion, let's go with the idea of yeast as a test species.

I like the idea of cyanobacteria but I don't like this aspect

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria#Health_risks

 

 

Some nice well behaved brewing yeast would seem a better bet.

(Plants would be fine, but to study evolution you need to look at many generations. For yeast each generation takes about an hour; for plants it's typically a year.

[Sensei]

We were discussing about recording science projects in this thread

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/87146-what-kind-of-animal-is-doing-this/

starting at #12 post.

 

You would need time-interval making photos, with AC-battery adapter.

 

Radiation is too broad term.

Sunlight is also radiation.

Simply not ionizing radiation (except UV).

You have to clarify what do you mean by this.

Piece of plutonium in your bedroom?

 

[Wolfhnd]

Piece of plutonium in your bedroom? I was thinking particle radiation was what was suggested as it seems most effective at getting past the natural protection organism may have. X-rays is perhaps the only thing available to the average person that could be used to generate a secondary source of particle radiation? I'm not a physicist lol

[lunaprey]

Thanks guys. Hmm, so the objective of this experiment is to attempt to steer the organism's evolution by stressing it in very specific ways. I haven't yet decided how I might steer it's direction. I will need to do a lot of research about the organism I plan to use (not yet decided, suggestions please!), and then consider some ways in which this organism might be useful to society. So, for example, if I could stress the organism into mutating in such a way that it produces more oxygen, or perhaps I could try to make it evolutionarily beneficial for a plant to glow, and so perhaps over generations I could grow an increasingly bright culture.

I'm sure there are a lot of applications for this. DNA is amazing. It's a great programming language, and I'm a web programmer. Just as random circumstances shaped all the varieties of life we see around us, I see no reason why evolution cannot be steered by dictating the environment of the organism. In this way, we can use DNA to solve problems that yet need solving.

As a web programmer, I spend a lot of time in my room, and I am a huge fan of science. My family makes me study business, but some day I will get a degree in biology, or perhaps microbiology, or nanotechnology. Anyway, with all this time I spend in my room, I think I could find great enjoyment in these experiments. The challenge is finding an organism which can reproduce fast enough to produce measurable results.

[Robittybob1]

...

As a web programmer, I spend a lot of time in my room, and I am a huge fan of science. My family makes me study business, but some day I will get a degree in biology, or perhaps microbiology, or nanotechnology. Anyway, with all this time I spend in my room, I think I could find great enjoyment in these experiments. The challenge is finding an organism which can reproduce fast enough to produce measurable results.

I think you'd see the results quite quickly for in the first few generations you'd be selecting for the ones that survive radiation. You could end up producing a problem type bacterium one that is just about impossible to sterilize using radiation!

[Wolfhnd]

I don't want to sound negative but I think this could be dangerous. You experiment will be contaminated with god only knows what and as I said radiation is dangerous. I may just be a worry filled old man but have you thought of the possibility of generating new pathogens? While your experiment is probably pretty save I suspect there our people capable of sophisticated DNA modification in their basements. As the kind of technology become prevalent for modifying DNA there is an increasing risk that it will be but to misuse. There are several reasons why this kind of thing should be done in a lab and I have to suggest you get you biology degree before playing around with it.

 

I will give you a link to paper that may suggest something that is more appropriate.

 

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v511/n7508/abs/nature13291.html

 

Grafting is an old way of producing new plants and seems safe to me.

[lunaprey]

Robitty, I'd like to only cause the organisms to mutate a bit, and I don't necessarily need to use radiation. It can be any mutagen. The mutagen will just stimulate the mutation process, hopefully allowing the organism to evolve and adapt faster to it's environment by increasing the likelihood of a good mutation occurring.

[fiveworlds]

The mutagen will just stimulate the mutation process, hopefully allowing the organism to evolve and adapt faster to it's environment by increasing the likelihood of a good mutation occurring.

 

Like a pug??

[lunaprey]

I don't want to sound negative but I think this could be dangerous. You experiment will be contaminated with god only knows what and as I said radiation is dangerous. I may just be a worry filled old man but have you thought of the possibility of generating new pathogens? While your experiment is probably pretty save I suspect there our people capable of sophisticated DNA modification in their basements. As the kind of technology become prevalent for modifying DNA there is an increasing risk that it will be but to misuse. There are several reasons why this kind of thing should be done in a lab and I have to suggest you get you biology degree before playing around with it.

 

I will give you a link to paper that may suggest something that is more appropriate.

 

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v511/n7508/abs/nature13291.html

 

Grafting is an old way of producing new plants and seems safe to me.

Thanks for your concern. It's certainly not set in stone that I need to use a bacteria. Honestly, I feel like the best thing I could use would be a virus. They can replicate fastest, and they are made up of DNA, so I don't see why they can't evolve. But virus are likely too small, and I'm sure they might even be dangerous! I'm not against going with plants. I like plants, and I would be happy to grow some in my room. I just worry plants might take too long to produce measurable results. Another option could be some sort of small fishy. I wouldn't mind getting an aquarium! Thanks by the way, I'll read that paper.

Edited February 17, 2015 by lunaprey

[StringJunky]

Thanks for your concern. It's certainly not set in stone that I need to use a bacteria. Honestly, I feel like the best thing I could use would be a virus. They can replicate fastest, and they are made up of DNA, so I don't see why they can't evolve. But virus are likely too small, and I'm sure they might even be dangerous! I'm not against going with plants. I like plants, and I would be happy to grow some in my room. I just worry plants might take too long to produce measurable results. Another option could be some sort of small fishy. I wouldn't mind getting an aquarium! Thanks by the way, I'll read that paper.

Thinking about this, you really need a hard-surfaced sterilisable lab-environment for that kind of exercise. Apart from safety issues you will have big contamination problems which throw unknown variables into your experiments. I think the next best thing is selective breeding of a plant or plants that you like. You can learn about controlling hereditary characteristics. Later on,if you are still buzzing about it, you will be better educated by then to think about micro-organisms. You can stress plants you know with grow-lights and mess with photoperiod, nutrient deprivation/excess drought/flood etc.

[Arete]

OK,

 

So I'm a research scientist in an experimental evolution lab. We generally use RNA viruses as our model organisms, due to their high mutation rates and short generation times. Irradiating seeds in the hope of producing advantageous mutations is a relatively widely used method to produce crop varieties http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irradiation#AgricultureHowever I can see a number of potential flaws in your proposal.

 

1) Anything which produces enough radiation to mutate seeds is a carcinogen and needs to be handled using the appropriate safety protocols. The last thing you'd want to do is end up like the nuclear boy scout. Furthermore, if you're intending to do the experiment in the same room you sleep in, I'd be strongly advising against using radiation to induce mutation.

 

2) If you want to observe actual adaptive evolution in weeks - months, plants will probably take too long. I'd use a microbe. Of course, certain microbes are also dangerous, but some are relatively safe to work with - I'd pick a BSL1 organism - E. coli stands out as one of the most accessible. (Btw there's TONNES of cool stuff on the Carolina.com website - DNA extraction kits, bacterial ID kits, enzymatic shearing kits, epidemic simulation kits, etc, etc etc - you could do a crapload of cool stuff for way less than $500 - they even have an experimental evolution kit to examine anitbiotic resistance http://www.carolina.com/inquiry-science-evolution/inquiries-in-science-changing-over-time-kit/FAM_251014.pr?catId=10631&mCat=10476&sCat=10629&ssCat=&question=) edit to add another sweet looking evolution experiment kit - drospohila (fruit fly) red eye mutation kit http://www.carolina.com/drosophila-fruit-fly-genetics/natural-selection-with-drosophila-kit/FAM_171995.pr?catId=10404&mCat=10337&sCat=&ssCat=&question=)

 

3) Given you probably don't have access to any sequencing technology, I'd focus on differential treatments (e.g., culturing media, temperature, humidity, etc). and growth compared to the ancestor strain (which you kept in the freezer) on the different treatments.

 

4) If you're going to go through with it, please try and find somewhere other than your room to do it. Even though E. coli don't typically infect healthy people, it'd be much better to be doing this in a garage/shed/etc.

 

Have fun.

 

Edit to add - depending on where you live both myself, and other scientists I know take on high school students as interns during the summer. If you're either near Connecticut or the Central Valley in Cali, drop me a PM and I might be able to connect you to a lab where you could either do or help with an evolution experiment.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Arete

[lunaprey]

What about slime mold? I'm a bit worried about fruit flies because I don't think my parents would appreciate me breeding flies in their house

this looks kinda interesting though: it's slime mold
http://www.carolina.com/teacher-resources/Interactive/exploring-the-mysteries-of-slime-molds/tr10721.tr?coId=10850&mCat=&trail=4004:College:4008:Life%20Science

[Arete]

What about slime mold?

 

Totally. Post up your experiment when you get going, take some photos and have fun!

 

edit: Physarum computers are super cool: http://www.phychip.eu/

Edited February 17, 2015 by Arete

[CharonY]

I second the notion that one should not try these things out in a living area. It is not easy to work sterile in a lab environment and it is almost impossible at home. It is therefore likely that you will get your media contaminated at one point or another and they may include pathogenic bacteria. They are part of your normal flora, but on media they may propagate to harmful amounts.

With regards to mutagenesis, be aware that anything that induces mutation can also do it in you, which poses a cancer risk. Before doing any work at all, I would advise you to read up on safety procedures and potential risk of chemicals and organisms you intend to use. But I would much prefer that you would look at local universities or other schools to get some lab experience first.

[lunaprey]

Yes, I know what I'm doing is dangerous at least a little. But I am forced to study business for least least the next 4 years. Also, I have a small tech firm that develops websites for businesses. I own the forum "sociopath community" too, and am the creator. I spend a lot of time at my computer either doing online college classes, or programming websites for clients. As a result, I spend a lot of time here.

I really love biology. I love all science really. I love understanding the universe, and the how everything came to be. Life is probably the most fascinating and complex thing this universe has produced (that I know of), and I feel a bit of sadness knowing that the path my life is on is not the path of science. I'm very happy with my tech firm, I believe I can change the world one day with it, but that doesn't change the fact that I wish I could also be doing some real science.

This is how I got the idea to do an experiment. I could keep a close eye on my experiment, and whenever I had some free time, I could work on it, observe results, and try to encourage the organism to involve in such aw ay as to adapt properties that are useful and cool. There is no way I can find a lab or something.

This all being said, I will certainly do very careful research and create a thorough plan before I take any steps. I'd be happy and even thankful to share this plan with you guys, and listen to any advice and caution. I certainly do not want to risk my health, or the health of my family. There must be a way that I can introduce a small amount of mutagen to my culture without hurting myself. There also must be an organism that I can use that won't start taking over my room, or cause any damages. Slime mold is okay, isn't it?

One option I could do perhaps is to build one of those little air-tight boxes with gloves built in so that I can manipulate stuff. I'm really excited just thinking about it! I have a lot more research to do, and I'm sure a lot more questions to ask before I even consider beginning on such a project.

[Arete]

This all being said, I will certainly do very careful research and create a thorough plan before I take any steps. I'd be happy and even thankful to share this plan with you guys, and listen to any advice and caution. I certainly do not want to risk my health, or the health of my family. There must be a way that I can introduce a small amount of mutagen to my culture without hurting myself. There also must be an organism that I can use that won't start taking over my room, or cause any damages. Slime mold is okay, isn't it?

 

Slime mold should make a great organism to work with - it's pretty safe and containable.

 

However, I'd steer away from the mutagens. Anything that can mutate the DNA of the slime mold can mutate yours too. I'd focus on different selection pressures, rather than artificially speeding up the mutation rate. Try different light regimes, different culturing temperatures, different growth media, etc.

[John Cuthber]

 

One option I could do perhaps is to build one of those little air-tight boxes with gloves built in so that I can manipulate stuff.

Before you start to do any work in a glove box, the first thing to do is work out how you get stuff out of it safely.

If you can't do that, don't start.

 

Incidentally, working in a glove box is a total pain in the neck.

[Moontanman]

Would UVB be a reasonable source of ionizing radiation? Such bulbs are available commercially, a great many people have them on aquariums in UV sterilizers, I have designed UVB sterilizers for the company i worked for back in the day, I think Arete would be your best source of info on how to use them for your purposes.