it is fearful to talk about death.

[yahya515]

nobody knows what death is , only dead people know that and they can not tell us, however here a philosophical method to know that:

 

we know how death looks like and how life looks like, dead people do not talk, they do not move they do not eat etc.

also we know what life is , the opposite of above, the golden key is to know what death is and also what life is to know the changing moment i.e the moment when a person change from the state of being alive to the state of being dead, and this moment is between , this moment everyone who is alive knows about it, it is the time when you are close to death and do not die, for example , having a car accident , there are some possibility for that:

you have a car accident, you break your leg you suffer some pain and you are save.

or have more damage to your body you suffer more pain and also you are safe.

you have a severe injury you suffer a lot of pain and you loose consciousness at this time you are in the state which is similar to death , you will die only if your heart stops, when your heart stops you will not feel that because you are conscious, to prove that in medical operations , a doctor , may cut out part of your body including your heart without you feeling pain.

conclusion :

death is a state of loosing consciousness permanently whether by suffering pain , when you die while you are conscious or not suffering pain when are unconscious.

below is my graph of time vs how much changes occur graph, it starts from point o which is beginning of life it continues to point a which the point of losing consciousness, the vertical line is how much changes occurred in your life, the horizontal line is time, from point o to point a is life and from point a and beyond is death no changes occur there .

 

[dreambeliever]

I believe in an after-life.

[Endy0816]

A lack of blood flow or even blood itself doesn't necessarily signal the end.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Endy0816

[imatfaal]

As this is in philosopy it might be fun to tempt the thread back to a philosophical topic. The stoics were very interested in talking about and meditating upon one's own death. The melete thanatou is an integral part of the stoic's quest towards calmness and self-sufficiency - ataraxy and autarky. Once you have "experienced" death through meditation and imagination you grow inured to the fears that normally pervade the subject - thus when confronted with perilous or discomforting situations the stoic has already dealt with worse through meditation and is able to remain calm and self-controlled.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I have had a ' Near Death Experience ' , which many people have had, but I can only speak from my own perspective.

 

I was in my 30's ( years old ) doing a construction job for a fellow businessman. His company was installing the roof on a new sports facility squash court. He asked me to drill holes on the top of the squash court walls , so that his metal roof installation could be bolted on . I was at the top of a very long extending ladder 30 feet or more. Masonry drill in one hand , gripping the top of wall red bricks with the other hand .i had successfully done many fastening position holes. On this particular occasion /moment , I was drilling.... Then found myself descending backwards ground wards with a drill in one hand , a brick in the other. I realised or experienced the compressed idea that I was about to die. No way could I survive this fall,

 

The whole time thing changed . Everything reduced to a very slowed up passage of time, on the way down . There was a resignation on my part " oh well this is it ! " I can see it now 40 years later .it was like seeing an old fashion film , frame by frame on the way down .

 

As it happened, I survived unscathed , and for days life was beautiful ( warts and all ) . Then gradually life per normal returned with all its ups and downs . I have heard other people having this time expansion experience. I actually met a guy who was electrocuted up in a tree and fell out dead , hit the ground dead . Lived to tell me the tale .

 

 

Mike

Edited February 24, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Graeme M]

Given that science is all the time better demonstrating an entirely physical origin for consciousness, it seems rather obvious that death means no consciousness. So to discuss what death is like or how it may be experienced is pretty meaningless. It isn't 'like' anything. It is simply not being.

 

Near death experiences of time slowing down and reviewing one's life do seem to occur, as do experiences of an afterlife by those who are revived from a state of close to death. I read recently an interesting article about NDEs and similar which noted that often experiences of some kind of afterlife often reflect cultural expectations suggesting an entirely physical explanation for these experiences.

 

The time slowing down thing happens for many people in non death like situations, many sports people describe that as being a property of moments when they are fully immersed in their experience.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

 

The time slowing down thing happens for many people in non death like situations, many sports people describe that as being a property of moments when they are fully immersed in their experience.

Yes. There was a televised experiment conducted on one of these 'science experiment ' programmes a year or two ago. They strapped a fast counter to a mans arm . Under normal circumstances , the figures went by as a complete blurr.

 

Then the dropped him , unconnected from a great hight 200feet or so . There was a great air bag below , so far down that one was not conscious of it . He was then filmed and his observation was recorded of his response to the fast counter.

 

He was heard, and recorded saying " I can see the numbers going by individually! "

 

 

-----------------------

 

A few years ago , say 10 or 15 years. I did a bungee jump off a 150 foot crane in Cyprus , on a beach , over the sea.

 

It was horrific , I would never do it again, I thought I was going to die! I was expecting the feeling of some form of support by the bungees, but there was no support on the way down , as the collection of un-stretched ' bungee s ' free falls with you . So it was like falling to your death . As I landed I hit the sea , only then to be sucked up into the air by the bungees .

 

It was yet another ' near death experience' I must admit I felt good , after the experience . But during those falling moments .....perception changes radically .

 

Mike

Edited February 26, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Robittybob1]

This article came up on the local MSN news "This is what it's like to be dead, according to a guy who died for a bit"

http://www.msn.com/en-nz/health/mindandbody/this-is-what-its-like-to-be-dead-according-to-a-guy-who-died-for-a-bit/ar-BBhWREd?ocid=UP97DHP

[Graeme M]

Interesting and certainly accords with consciousness being purely a function of the brain. Although... that experience doesn't rule out an afterlife if you happen to be religious (I am not). At least if you a Christian. Coincidentally I posted about this in the Religion thread. As I understand it, the Christian bible teaches that death is death. The dead 'sleep' until the second coming when they are raised to live again (if they meet the grade that is). So in that belief system, being dead now, and being revived, would certainly result in no awareness.

 

My own view is that 'I' am simply a result of my brain's physical processes. When I die, I cease to exist. I have no more awareness of existence than I have of the time before I was born.

[Ten oz]

I have never "died" or been near death. I have had surgery though (achilles repair) and been made chemically unconscious. I went into it assuming it would be akin to sleeping. It was not. I was given gas, told to start counting backwards, and instantenously I was in the recovery room with my wife and a nurse. I did not expireince even one second of time passage. In a time frame that literally felt shorter than even closing my eyes I had gone through a 4 hour long surgery. I was told to start counting backwards from ten and before I got to eight I was looking my wife in the eyes. I don't even recall opening eyes. One second, 4hours, or eternity was no difference. Had I expired during surgery I instantaneously never would have known or cared.

[yahya515]

I believe in an after-life.

so do I , according to my belief people will sleep after they die and wake up on the judgement day.

[Graeme M]

What will you wake up as?

[Finding the Elephant]

Perhaps we have a choice about whether or not we survive in spirit after death. Until we can explain our awareness of the present moment - what many physicists say defies explanation, the continuation of our awareness in time is always a possibility. What if you had a choice, what would you chose, oblivion or .... the next experience?

 

Many teachers or 'prophets' have come along to tell us that there is a possibility of extended existence. We give them time because at a gut level, we all kind of know there is something afoot. Our intelligence gives us an ability to sense things/phenomena/hypercomplex patterns before we understand them fully, like a great bit of music. And we all know by now that our inability to understand says nothing about whether or not it exists. Existence doesn't need our permission to exist and doesn't have to comply with our current understanding of what is 'rational', though when you consider the Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser experiment results, perhaps matter does.

[John Cuthber]

"Until we can explain our awareness of the present moment - what many physicists say defies explanation,"

Which physicists have said that?

Is there any reason to suppose that they are correct?

There's a great difference between "We cant explain it yet" and "It can not be explained".

 

"We give them time because at a gut level, we all kind of know there is something afoot. "

Perhaps we listen to them because they tell us what we want to hear.

[Graeme M]

I always wonder what people imagine they would be like if their 'spirit' continues after death. What is the 'I' we are aware of? Science seems to be doing a good job of showing how deeply rooted in the physical brain consciousness is, even if there is yet to be a real theory of mind.

But considering this thread is about the the question of ongoing awareness after death, I suppose people imagine there is a spirit which is somehow independent of the conscious 'I'.

What would that be like?

I think it's evident that our consciousness, our sense of self and the character of the personality is entirely rooted in the functioning of the brain. People with brain injury, terrible life experiences, genetic disorders and so on all will have personalities and senses of self that differ from those they would have were they otherwise not so afflicted. Even ageing and learning changes one's sense of self. A 2 year old is so different from a 92 year old.

So, if the spirit survives death, what would it experience itself as? A 2 year old? A 42 year old with a severe genetic disorder? A 92 year old with dementia? A 36 year old rapist with pedophiliac desires?

Clearly spirit doesn't equal personality, or even perhaps consciousness given how dependent that is on brain function. Thus it seems to me that it entirely unknowable what one would be like after death if the spirit somehow survives.

[Ten oz]

@ Graeme M, I think more to the point consciousness is rooted in our bodies. My brain in a body with less testosterone and more estrogen would function differently. Not only that but our bodies both provide our consciousness it's only means of interacting with the world but defines those interactions. Our identities, concept of self, sense of character, and etc can not exist without a body. Being tall, attractive, a racial minority, female, ugly, fat, skinny, etc, etc, all play a role in shaping our view of the world both unconsciously and consciously. Our bodies also provide us pleasure. The feeling of a tasty meal, warm of sunshine, softness of a lap cat, thrill of sky diving, and so on. I think a bodiless muchless a brainless existence is rather preposterous. We are the entirety of ourselves not merely some unmeasurable, unidentifiable, non human spirit.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I always wonder what people imagine they would be like if their 'spirit' continues after death. What is the 'I' we are aware of? ......

 

I think it's evident that our consciousness, our sense of self and the character of the personality is entirely rooted in the functioning of the brain. .

The only thing I have noticed..... And gives me some sort of anticipation , if I were to wake up in some possible future life ...is based on the odd one or two lucid dreams I can remember .( lucid ..in the dream being this feeling very conscious , even though in a dream , and steering the dream a bit. )

 

I have had a sense of 'me' from being young , when I was in school ,I had the same sense of 'me'. ness . When I was in my 20's similarly , and now in my early 70's I feel me 'mike' .

 

Now when I was in this lucid dream , I had this bicycle but it's tyres were flat , so I peeled off the outer tyres and they were full of rabbits . I did not question this in my dream , I was conscious of being me ' mike ' and there was nothing to worry about rabbits being in my bicycle tyres. .. When I woke up I thought about the dream , I still felt ' me ' mike BUT felt how ridiculous it was to have rabbits in my tyres.

 

So. My guess ( only a guess ) is that I, we , would in a possible new future life , feel the same ' me ' mike , but we would cope with a possible new set of circumstances that we find ourself in this possible new life.

 

. { this tends to be in sympathy , with what Ten Oz has just iterated } posted while I was posting !

 

Wether we then look back on this life as a sort of dream , I do not know ?

 

Mike

Edited February 28, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Graeme M]

Although I am not religious, the only 'afterlife' that would make sense to me would be one of perfection. That is, to be unencumbered by human shortcomings. Of course as Ten oz suggests our experience of the world comes about from the gamut of physical inputs - brain, chemistry, experience and so on, all synthesised into a sense of 'Me'. But as I noted, most people have all sorts of less than perfect experiences. Not being able to understand something. Arguing with loved ones. Not knowing how to compromise, or compromising too much. Not being able to progress at work. Having some sort of substance addiction. Or having it all but still feeling empty. To say nothing of those for whom 'Me' is even more fraught.

Heaven to me would be to exist as a being of perfection, which is most likely just 'being'.

Now I think this is all too new agey, but when I do think about the nature of being and reality, my feeling is that spirit is actually what is meant by the term God. That accords with how the Bible describes mans spirit, not the notion of an independent self.

That is, all of reality is simply the incarnation of God, or the All. You and I exist as segments of that All, momentarily conscious of self but entirely physically determined. On death, 'you' cease to be but the All remains. 'You' return to the All.

Think of it like an ocean. The ocean is the All, and the drops caught by the wind are the Selves. For a moment, each droplet is real, and independent, but when it falls back into the ocean it is no longer discernible as an independent entity. It still exists but only as part of the All.

That makes sens to me. Life, and self, is the mometary physical manifestation of the All. Death returns the Self to the All. To just being. To perfection.

Of course, that's being all very metaphysical about it all. In fact, I think it probably is just what it looks like. 'You' arise from the function of the brain and nervous system, and on death 'you' cease to be.

[dimreepr]

It seems to me that just being is what almost all animals do when they lack external influence/stimuli, in other words they are content.

 

When one is content one cares not for what comes after; because now is all that counts “yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery but today is a gift”.

[Ten oz]

It seems to me that just being is what almost all animals do when they lack external influence/stimuli, in other words they are content.

 

When one is content one cares not for what comes after; because now is all that counts “yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery but today is a gift”.

Excellent point. Happiness or contentment in healthy people is most often a choice.

[yahya515]

It seems to me that just being is what almost all animals do when they lack external influence/stimuli, in other words they are content.

 

When one is content one cares not for what comes after; because now is all that counts “yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery but today is a gift”.

there is a huge difference between animals and humans in death matters , an animal does not know about its future death, it is content for it does not know , when a person knows about death , he develops ideas whether they are true or false, they are the same as ancient thoughts of spirit and where it will go after death , like ancient egypt ones, ancient does not mean it is obsolete however it means the beginning thouthgts about death for humankind . the natural thing is to have ideas about the spirits of the dead ,and specifically about afterlife and destiny , as a result of scientific ideas or theories the human kind had to remove any other ideas that seem not logical even if humans need them due to the unsolved problem of death and destiny , religion is a kind of development for those ancient ideas.

[dimreepr]

The Sermon on the Mount is a lesson we should all look to, in terms of a base level of being; in that we should look to an understanding of being without, the multitude of influence/addiction that pervades modern life.

[yahya515]

how I will get knowledge of being and death ? what kind of science will provide me with such knowledge ? while I will not be able to obtain any kind of knowledge about death and afterlife from any other sources l prefer to believe in religion , also what if afterlife matters much more than the life we live now?

[dimreepr]

how I will get knowledge of being and death ?

 

 

You’ll get knowledge of being through life and introspection; death is beyond the event horizon.

 

 

l prefer to believe in religion , also what if afterlife matters much more than the life we live now?

 

 

 

What if it does?

 

The point is you have no way of knowing either way so live your life now, religion may help with the afterlife, if there is such a thing, but any religion that prevents you living while you have life isn’t worth following.

[Strange]

also what if afterlife matters much more than the life we live now?

What if it doesn't?