Are there different species of human?

[CharonY]

I trust you also accept that this was essentially completely wrong.

Concordance was, indeed, saying that JC was everyone's ancestor.

 

 

After listening in it appears that John is indeed right. Qualifying with the notion that he should have some illegitimate children somewhere and they will also have progeny sounds like severe backpedaling. The overall idea is right, tracing back long enough and we will find a common relative (and using some models it is actually not that long ago). But the example given and the way it is presented is sensationalist, to put it mildly. Also the argument seems backward, because we share common relatives you will have to demonstrate that the descendants are traceable to present time (as John asserted earlier). This has been done for Temujin, maybe Confucius but not for JC. In the former case (using the Y chromosal analyses) it indicates that about 0.5% of all men alive are his direct descendants. The timeline (~1000 years) is of course shorter than the other examples given in the video, but at least substantiated.

 

Moon, are you sure he is scholar and that is area of research. Most researchers fee uncomfortable with that level of simplification.

Edited February 25, 2015 by CharonY

[Ten oz]

@Ten Oz all true, but would body type determine why some countries are good. I read an article, the same I have mentioned, earlier, I think. The author asked a professional distance runner from east Africa. He loved soccer, but East Africans don't have the body for it, being tall and gangly. At least that was the claim. And Jamaicans come from west african descent, which in turn shows they have a sprinting body, which leads to it being a cultural thing.

The Infant mortality in Jamaica is 14 per 1,000 http://www.indexmundi.com/jamaica/infant_mortality_rate.html

 

The Infant mortality rate in Ethiopia is 55 per 1,000 http://www.indexmundi.com/ethiopia/infant_mortality_rate.html

 

The average caloric intake per day in Jamaica is 2,850 compared to Ethiopia's 1,950 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_food_energy_intake

 

Comparing Eastern African countries to Jamaica in the context of athletics is not an apples to apples comparison. Many environmental factors are different. All those differences impact birth weight, growth and development, opportunity, general health, and etc, etc, etc. It is not surprising that the average person born in a poorer country with higher infant mortality rates and a lower daily caloric intake would be "gangly". Not hard to understand why those people wouldn't excell at sports requiring lots of immediate quick twitch muscles and burst of power and energy.

 

As for the taller part I am not sure that is true. What info I can find is on women and the average Jamaican woman is taller than the average women in either Ethiopia or Kenya. Normally male height follows.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Average_height_around_the_world

[The Tactical Strategist]

All your evidence leads to the conclusion on that's how their body type is. Even well fed, fit Kenyans living in America still are tall, gangly. They tend to have bigger lungs, which help with breathing in the distance, and their slimmer shape help too. While west Africans/Jamaicans tend to naturally have more muscles and power for sprinting. I think environmental factors help make the body type known in west Africans, giving them that body type, if that makes sense

[Moontanman]

After listening in it appears that John is indeed right. Qualifying with the notion that he should have some illegitimate children somewhere and they will also have progeny sounds like severe backpedaling. The overall idea is right, tracing back long enough and we will find a common relative (and using some models it is actually not that long ago). But the example given and the way it is presented is sensationalist, to put it mildly. Also the argument seems backward, because we share common relatives you will have to demonstrate that the descendants are traceable to present time (as John asserted earlier). This has been done for Temujin, maybe Confucius but not for JC. In the former case (using the Y chromosal analyses) it indicates that about 0.5% of all men alive are his direct descendants. The timeline (~1000 years) is of course shorter than the other examples given in the video, but at least substantiated.

 

Moon, are you sure he is scholar and that is area of research. Most researchers fee uncomfortable with that level of simplification.

 

 

Then I apologize, but he really is a scientist, one of the few you personalities I know to be real scientists, in fact him and thunderf00t are the only two i am aware enough to say for sure they are. He does give more information about himself on his blog, papers cited and that sort of stuff. He also gives some citations for his videos as well but you have to visit his page to see them...

I trust you also accept that this was essentially completely wrong.

Concordance was, indeed, saying that JC was everyone's ancestor.

 

 

 

I honestly did not see it that way, I thought he was pretty clear he was talking of men from that age, either they were the ancestor of everyone alive or no one alive, but since two here have corrected me and I have no way of arguing different I accept he was wrong and by extension i was wrong...

Edited February 25, 2015 by Moontanman

[CharonY]

While we are admitting things, sorry for commenting before I actually watched the video. I really got the context wrong. Also my comment was directed against the first video. If he had said that we all have a high likelihood of finding our direct common ancestor by moving about 2-5k years back then it would have been less objectionable. Confucius is one much more likely candidate for reasons he pointed out (though I admit that I stopped listening a few minutes in). Although I am not sure whether he mentioned any genetic analyses of which I am not aware of. What delboy is missing is that migration at that precise time was not actual necessary for the spread, but extensive genetic exchange is likely to have happened via trading enterprises such as the silk road.

One has to remember that one shared ancestor would merge lines at given point in the tree.

Edited February 25, 2015 by CharonY

[John Cuthber]

The other problem is that a dog and I have some common ancestor (way back), but it doesn't make us the same species.

[Ten oz]

All your evidence leads to the conclusion on that's how their body type is. Even well fed, fit Kenyans living in America still are tall, gangly. They tend to have bigger lungs, which help with breathing in the distance, and their slimmer shape help too. While west Africans/Jamaicans tend to naturally have more muscles and power for sprinting. I think environmental factors help make the body type known in west Africans, giving them that body type, if that makes sense

I supplied a link showing average heights around the world. Kenyans, Ethiopian, and other people in Eastern Africa are not taller on average than Jamaicians. As far Kenyans conceived, born, and raised in the United States what is your data? Thus far you have only mentioned something you once read. You have not provided any real information.

 

Familiarizing yourself with "secular trends" and there environmental drives may be useful to this conversation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/503084

[CharonY]

The other problem is that a dog and I have some common ancestor (way back), but it doesn't make us the same species.

 

That is true. However, the common ancestor would always be in or at the same species boundary, assuming that the population has been around for sufficiently long. The most recent direct ancestor would be found sometime after that. Most calculations seem to estimate roughly 4-5k years under somewhat conservative assumptions, but I do not really know what the current consensus may be.

[delboy]

What delboy is missing is that migration at that precise time was not actual necessary for the spread, but extensive genetic exchange is likely to have happened via trading enterprises such as the silk road.

One has to remember that one shared ancestor would merge lines at given point in the tree.

I was going on what I read in Richard Dawkins' 2004 book The Ancestors Tale. He estimated that the most recent single human (or two humans I guess) to be ancestor to all present humans was some tens of thousands of years ago. Things go out of date pretty quickly.

[CharonY]

Yeah things are a bit in flux. The amount of genetic information we can produce as increased massively over the last decade and sometimes we find things that indicate more recent relationships, but then one could also find rare variants that push the timeline further back.

[The Tactical Strategist]

No, Kenyans aren't always taller, but they are tall with lean frames, which help them run, and I didn't say the were born in America. Kenyans that eventually got the oppourtunity to come to America to run track.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/2012/08/12/the-dna-olympics-jamaicans-win-sprinting-genetic-lottery-and-why-we-should-all-care/

[Ten oz]

No, Kenyans aren't always taller, but they are tall with lean frames, which help them run, and I didn't say the were born in America. Kenyans that eventually got the oppourtunity to come to America to run track.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/2012/08/12/the-dna-olympics-jamaicans-win-sprinting-genetic-lottery-and-why-we-should-all-care/

I have seen this article before. It is punditry and not a scientific study. It is just the authors opinion supported by non peer reviewed research performed by parties not related to the article.

So again, Kenyans are not on average "tall" in comparison to Jamaicans. As for a theoretical Kenyan born transplant to the united states how does that address secular trend?

[Kelnad]

Evolution is a confusing thing, you can't breed with a chimp and make a chimp human. So how is it that animals get so different? The answer is that all animals are hosts to other life forms and constantly unknown life forms invade hosts. Our bodies are bodies and each is different chemically, physically, and with different life forms to host. How we become different is merging of viruses and bacteria. There is no cure to a virus all we can do is either die from our bodies immune system going into shock and our immune system attacking the body, because viruses attach to our cells, or the organism finds away to survive over time without triggering the immune system, but either way the body never rids itself of a virus and that makes us a host to an unknown organism. Immunization is not a cure really, its slow introduction to a foreign body. Flu same thing. Makes you wonder why they try and cure the common cold by building up the immune system when it should be the opposite, or Ebola for that matter is treated like the common cold. Sorry getting off topic. We are also Chimera's, so we even you compared to you mom and dad are physically different. However being a different species does not mean physically different, so what makes a species different is breeding, and if we can breed with each other than we are the same species. So I guess the answer is no, we are not different species at all.

[Robittybob1]

..... We are also Chimera's, so we even you compared to you mom and dad are physically different. ....

You need to check your definition of "Chimera". The way you used it in that sentence was incorrect.

[Moontanman]

In case anyone is interested here is where c0nc0rdance is coming from citations:

 

http://www.stat.yale.edu/~jtc5/papers/CommonAncestors/NatureCommonAncestors-Article.pdf

 

http://www.stat.yale.edu/~jtc5/papers/Ancestors.pdf

[Kelnad]

When a women is pregnant she is actually with not just something like herself but with a foreign object, its why we get nausea's, and a women during this time can absorb the DNA of the father from the embryo. So a women is Chimera in that respect becomes physically different. The child can become different in same respect, it can absorb DNA from the womb and if there was a conception from an embryo of a different father, this child could absorb that DNA as well, making them different than the father and mother. Didn't mean to make it sound off.

[Robittybob1]

When a women is pregnant she is actually with not just something like herself but with a foreign object, its why we get nausea's, and a women during this time can absorb the DNA of the father from the embryo. So a women is Chimera in that respect becomes physically different. The child can become different in same respect, it can absorb DNA from the womb and if there was a conception from an embryo of a different father, this child could absorb that DNA as well, making them different than the father and mother. Didn't mean to make it sound off.

OK you were using it in the mythological sense whereas since the thread is about genetics I thought you should know the genetic meaning of Chimera. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28genetics%29

 

A chimera (also spelled chimaera) (from the creature Chimera in Greek mythology) is a single organism composed of genetically distinct cells. This can result in male and female organs, two different blood types, or subtle variations in form.[1] Animal chimeras are produced by the merger of multiple fertilized eggs.

[Kelnad]

Chimeras, like with the case of the mom who finds herself in a bit of a problem when she is told her son is not hers in a DNA test. Well her husband and others seen her deliver the child so of course testing was done again, it looked like her brother was the parent though and not her. It turns out the DNA she had passed along was found from another part of her body. So like twins that merge together, there are other ways possibly of passing along DNA. Such as the possibility of one having DNA of two fathers. So Chimeras are not just mergers of fertilized eggs, but DNA can be absorbed through embryo's.

I don't know how you would mistaken me talking about it in a mythological way when I'm talking DNA exchanges, but glad to be able to clear things up.

[Robittybob1]

Chimeras, like with the case of the mom who finds herself in a bit of a problem when she is told her son is not hers in a DNA test. Well her husband and others seen her deliver the child so of course testing was done again, it looked like her brother was the parent though and not her. It turns out the DNA she had passed along was found from another part of her body. So like twins that merge together, there are other ways possibly of passing along DNA. Such as the possibility of one having DNA of two fathers. So Chimeras are not just mergers of fertilized eggs, but DNA can be absorbed through embryo's.

I don't know how you would mistaken me talking about it in a mythological way when I'm talking DNA exchanges, but glad to be able to clear things up.

So do you have evidence of the situations you describe here?

 

When a women is pregnant she is actually with not just something like herself but with a foreign object, its why we get nausea's, and a women during this time can absorb the DNA of the father from the embryo. So a women is Chimera in that respect becomes physically different. The child can become different in same respect, it can absorb DNA from the womb and if there was a conception from an embryo of a different father, this child could absorb that DNA as well, making them different than the father and mother.

Have you experienced what you describe here?