Automation: Pros and cons.

[Endy0816]

Most modern self driving vehicles are using computer vision.

 

Along the same lines as this:

http://delphi.com/media/pressreleases/2015/03/14/delphi-to-launch-first-coast-to-coast-automated-drive

 

The real benefit would be the networking aspect. Turn transit into something more akin to packet routing.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Endy0816

[tar]

Endy0816,

 

Packet routing can send a packet going to the same destination through a different route than another packet in the message, to get reassembled in the right order at the other end.

 

I don't think people and birthday cakes would reassemble very well at the destination.

 

Besides, people chose how important it is to get ahead of the next guy, and what risks they are willing to take in the appropriate situations.

 

I have a rule that I never drive over 7 miles an hour over the speed limit on the highway. I can be driving 70 in a 65 and someone will go flying by me at 80 or 90.

 

Often its an Audi or Mercedes, as the owners of those vehicals seem to believe our highways should be driven as if they are Autobahns with only the speed limit of the car to be considered. But automated vehicals would have to drive 65, thus bogging down the highway for the aggressive driver that needs to get to the job interview.

 

When I am on the road, I often see a heavy truck, speeding toward an uphill climb to get as much momentum as possible, and I move to the right to let him pass. I then pass him on the hill. This kind of behavior may or may not be programmed into the car driving across country on March 22nd. I wonder what kind of road etiquite is programmed into the vehical. And if some kid has painted a 55 mile an hour sign into an 88 mile an hour sign, will the vehical go 88. And if a police officer attempts to pull the car over, will it obey the sirens and lights? Can it show license and registration? Who will be responsible if it causes a fatal accident? Will it be escorted? Will it be remote controlled? Is it gas powered or electric? What if it runs out of gas, or can not find an outlet? Does it have robotics to plug itself in, or does it need human assistance?

 

Regards, TAR

Just wondering how the Delphi car will respond to road rage situations. Or if it gets boxed in by trucks. I don't know if its going to be labeled somehow, or escorted somehow, but I personally would be freaked out seeing a vehical proceeding with no driver. Maybe there will be an occupant of the driver's seat, that is not supposed to do anything, but other drivers would still attempt to make eye contact with the gal or guy, to see if its OK to come over into the lane and such. People speed up and slow down to make room or block according to the results of the eye contact and subsequent vehical positioning. If the car is doing one thing and the personal eye contact of the Delphi "driver" is doing another, there may be a misunderstanding, and a possible collision.

Most people get used to what a reasonable other person will do on a highway. Nobody knows how a particular automated car is programmed, and how it will respond to different situations. It would be treated like a drunk driver on the road and given a wide berth, most probably.

Or maybe people would tease it, and test it, and see if they could outsmart the program.

[Sensei]

Three things I should always have direct, mechanical control of in a car:

Brake

Accelerator

Steering

 

In electric car, which is future, you won't have.

Acceleration = change of resistance (and thus change of current), or change of voltage (and thus change of current).

 

Ultimately, I think my fundamental problem with drive by wire systems is that the computer is actually in control of the car, not me, and that goes against every instinct I possess. I admit, it's an emotional, visceral, reaction with only the most passing glance in the direction of logical, but there you have it. When I board a train, or a plane, or get into the passenger seat of another car, I have acknowledged a release of the determination of my own fate for the duration of this trip. But when I'm physically holding onto the steering wheel, the idea that I'm not really the one who decides which way the wheels point frankly scares the hell right out of me.

 

Self driving car will look like this:

Edited March 26, 2015 by Sensei

[swansont]

 

But automated vehicals would have to drive 65, thus bogging down the highway for the aggressive driver that needs to get to the job interview.

 

Why would they "have to" drive 65? (ignoring the existence of roads that already have higher speed limits) If they prove to be safer, wouldn't higher speed limits result for those cars? We already have HOV lanes. One could envision driverless car lanes, with higher speed limits.

[Phi for All]

 

Self driving car will look like this:

 

You might as well paint them all white and make every car the same. Why should I pay for a BMW that's going to be governed by the same system as the Toyota, or the Hyundai?

 

 

Why would they "have to" drive 65? (ignoring the existence of roads that already have higher speed limits) If they prove to be safer, wouldn't higher speed limits result for those cars? We already have HOV lanes. One could envision driverless car lanes, with higher speed limits.

 

This seems like a rational way for the technology to proceed. Plus, it's the aggressive driver who wants to get to the job interview that gums things up for everyone. Automobile traffic is definitely a situation where slow-and-steady is better but hardly intuitive.

[Endy0816]

I meant it will be like a packet in terms of how it finds its way to its destination in light of the overall traffic situation. Many of our navigator apps do this to an extant. Likewise most Nav Apps already have speed limit data(annoyingly).

 

I don't have enough information to even guess on how the legal framework will evolve. I suspect legal responsibility will remain primarily on the vehicle owner and depending on the nature of the accident, the car manufacturer. The law may require a driver be able to take control or it may not. Unoccupied vehicles and vehicles driving unaccompanied minors or individuals with disabilities are a real possibility though. On the policing end, I suspect the future will be largely data/command driven.

 

ie. Law enforcement has a screen with information relating to a vehicle's owner(would you even need a license???) and have the ability to electronically issue 'Safely Pull Over and Shutdown' commands.

 

There will probably be a substantial growth in services that cater to the vehicles themselves. Simple ones could be more easily done with further automation(pumping). Others accomplished by people, for instance, placing purchases inside a vehicle's trunk.

 

You may well need to learn driving with few to no cues from other vehicle occupants on the road. In the most part though they should do better than we do at driving. You may be interested in the Google driverless car Wikipedia page. More usage data in an urban environment. Things like speeding and road rage should become far less common. Your vehicle could easily double as your office and entertainment, all without you being distracted/aggravated with driving.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Endy0816

[tar]

All the cars white?

 

Does seem like there is likely a one size fits all situation that will evolve with driverless cars. That is, speed and power and size will likely be within certain tight ranges, as to not cause mis-matches on the road. And each will have a "best practices" type of programming for each situation, that will be governed by some standards organization, so there are not rouge vehicals out there, causing inequality or hard feelings. Same batteries, same charging or switch out stations, same everything. Almost, not likely that you will own your own car. Probably just rent a ride, when you need one. Call for a car on your app, when you know you have to go to the job interview, tell it your starting point and destination, and when you figure to return and "the system" will figure out how to get a vehical in position. Might have to be prepared to ride share.

 

Still doesn't fit my likes and desires. I have driven near a million miles over my life, what with relatives in different states, and a field rep job at one point, and vacations. And part of the joy of driving is getting there yourself. I alway felt proud to get my family safely and comfortably from NJ to West Virginia, to Alanta and home, along with the gifts. A feeling of accomplishment, to know the way, and a good feeling to see all the houses and trees and roads and wires on the way. The routes have become part of my model of the world. My "neighborhood" is bigger now that my daughter is at VT. A trip down to see her would not be as personally under my control, if I took a bus, or hired a ride. And automated stuff just switches the expertise, and the know how, and the responsibility and the control to someone else. I would still have to pay for it all, and not get any of the intrinsic reward of doing it myself.

 

And most importantly, I would most probably not be allowed to drive myself in a manually controlled car, if I wanted. And decisions on how much I could travel and such might be made by the system. I would hate that.

 

 

 

Regards, TAR

And how is a teenage couple going to find a place to "park"?

[Endy0816]

All the cars white?

 

Does seem like there is likely a one size fits all situation that will evolve with driverless cars. That is, speed and power and size will likely be within certain tight ranges, as to not cause mis-matches on the road. And each will have a "best practices" type of programming for each situation, that will be governed by some standards organization, so there are not rouge vehicals out there, causing inequality or hard feelings. Same batteries, same charging or switch out stations, same everything. Almost, not likely that you will own your own car. Probably just rent a ride, when you need one. Call for a car on your app, when you know you have to go to the job interview, tell it your starting point and destination, and when you figure to return and "the system" will figure out how to get a vehical in position. Might have to be prepared to ride share.

 

Still doesn't fit my likes and desires. I have driven near a million miles over my life, what with relatives in different states, and a field rep job at one point, and vacations. And part of the joy of driving is getting there yourself. I alway felt proud to get my family safely and comfortably from NJ to West Virginia, to Alanta and home, along with the gifts. A feeling of accomplishment, to know the way, and a good feeling to see all the houses and trees and roads and wires on the way. The routes have become part of my model of the world. My "neighborhood" is bigger now that my daughter is at VT. A trip down to see her would not be as personally under my control, if I took a bus, or hired a ride. And automated stuff just switches the expertise, and the know how, and the responsibility and the control to someone else. I would still have to pay for it all, and not get any of the intrinsic reward of doing it myself.

 

And most importantly, I would most probably not be allowed to drive myself in a manually controlled car, if I wanted. And decisions on how much I could travel and such might be made by the system. I would hate that.

 

 

 

Regards, TAR

And how is a teenage couple going to find a place to "park"?

Why park?

 

I'd be willing to bet we'll see a mix of colors and styles. Be like the smart phone market. Will probably still be able to plot specific routes or switch into a manual mode. Ironically Uber is looking into self driving cars as well.

[tar]

Seems the March 22- April 3 Delphi trip with the automated car went well.

 

http://www.dailydot.com/technology/delphi-self-driving-car-trip-united-states/

 

The car was driven by people for 50 of the miles, when road conditions were too unpredictable (ie. unmarked roads, on/off ramps.)

[Endy0816]

Thought this was pretty cool.

 

[Phi for All]

Thought this was pretty cool.

 

Cool, creepy, and erotic in equal measures.

[dimreepr]

Thought this was pretty cool.

 

 

 

It reminds me of Pink Floyd’s “The Wall”; the animated part where the phallus was devoured after its seductive dance, I was actually disappointed at the successful mating.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2015 by dimreepr

[tar]

Possible argument against trusting automated systems.

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/offbeat/russian-driver-fined-for-his-cars-shadow/ar-AAivoM1?oicd=edgsp

[EdEarl]

My perspective on automation is jaded, I suppose. My first experiences with computers was far enough back to be primitive. I remember being an operator on a system, and every morning we entered a sequence of about a dozen instructions on 12 switches (12 bits), which read a card that read a deck of cards to load the "operating system." Another system read its operating system by reading a loader from paper tape, and the loader read the "operating system" from a reel of magnetic tape. Computers were much more difficult to use in those days. However, we always knew improvements were in the pipe; although, we didn't know how they would be implemented and affect our work.

 

As a programmer, one of the things that became crystal clear is the frequency of human error. While coding the average programmer makes many errors, perhaps one every ten lines of code. It is embarrassing and infuriating. I'd have more hair if machines did what I wanted instead of what I programmed. Software has become easier to learn and use, but there is still room for improvement in many systems. On the other hand, some software is much better than we are of doing things.

[tar]

EdEarl,

 

Yes, I get the human error thing, but there is the flip side of depending on the programming of someone else that is put in as a subroutine on someone elses program and the whole package is used as a component of some other system. An error, or bug in such a system can be many levels down, and require the input of people that are not even in your organization to correct. Sometimes such corrections are not cost effective, and are not even attempted. Or the bug correction waits for the next release of the software. Or the improvement or correction is just abandoned and you live with the imperfection. So people get ticketed when the sun is low in the sky, you just invalidate the ticket, with excessive additional human involvement that requires you to hire ticket invalidators, and perhaps people to verify that you are not ticketing a shadow, and before you know it, you have more people working on the ticketing system and the cameras and the billing and crediting and reprogramming and all, then you would have had working if you just had a uniformed officer on the highway in a patrol car, writing tickets when appropriate.

 

Regards, TAR

Plus, and I think this is the biggest problem, a new system sometimes does not work with some components of connected systems, and the whole complex has to be replaced, at great expense in development, testing, implementation and training, and then there is ALWAYS a burn in period where the unforeseen bugs of the new complex have to be addressed. Sometimes there are months where the most basic of organizational operations have to be manually done, until the bugs are ironed out. And then once the system is working, with the concessions and shortcomings, it only stays in place until the next "improvement" comes along, and the whole process repeats and all the work and training is thrown out the window to put the new system in place.

 

I used to work for a business equipment manufacturer, where the real work was selling and servicing copiers printers, faxes and duplicators. You sold the thing, shipped the thing, installed the thing, billed the customer and visited to repair and service the thing a sell supplies. When I left, I was working in a building where actually none of that was happening. Some training, but most in my building were programmers and testers, working with the complicated systems we had put together to "make things easier".

Edited September 11, 2016 by tar

[EdEarl]

The change to AI applications has begun, which has seen both failures and successes. For example, the tragic Tesla AI driver killed its owner, the ridiculous Microsoft chatbot, Tay, apparently became a Hitler-loving sex robot within 24 hours, the surprising win by Alpha-Go playing a grand master, and the astonishing Jeopardy win by Watson.

 

AI applications are coded and trained. The coding builds a neural net and neural nets are trained for various applications. AI applications can continue to learn as their application is used; thus, they can adapt to individuals, for example turning lights on after dark and turning off headlights in a driveway. No doubt the transition will be interesting, but eventually AI helpers will anticipate your needs and wants, instead of being clumsy when used.

[tar]

No doubt the transition will be interesting, but eventually AI helpers will anticipate your needs and wants, instead of being clumsy when used.

Ed Earl,

 

Yeah it's that "anticipation" that bothers me. Like why I started this thread, finding my car locked in the garage, when I didn't have my keys and wanted to get a paper towel off the backseat, or went to put my briefcase on the floor behind the drivers seat and couldn't get in because the back door had locked itself, the car thinking I forgot to lock it when I left, so it was doing me a favor. It was not doing be a favor, it did not ask me what I wanted, the programmer had set the thing. So the neural net thing might think its being smart, to drive you to 123 Haywood Ave. on Tuesday night like you always drive, but the darn thing does not know your wife is driving and wants to go to the Quik Check for some cigarettes, and that 123 Haywood is your girlfriend's house.

 

Regards, TAR

[Endy0816]

Some vehicles already recognize who their driver is(to a degree).

[tar]

what if you are the same size and weight of another member of the family

 

Should you submit to a dna scan to enter your vehical?

[EdEarl]

Well Tar, you may not be able to avoid all those interesting things.

what if you are the same size and weight of another member of the family

Should you submit to a dna scan to enter your vehical?

Voice and face recognition are my preference for low level security.

[tar]

Nice, but when you're freezing to death in the blizzard and you can't get in the damn car because of the thick flying snow and the howling wind and the scarf over your face, you might wish you had not bought that model.

Edited September 12, 2016 by tar