How can Human Beings Be So Cruel To Other Human Beings (Split From Canadians & Aliens)

[Strange]

This is real, I heard it a bazillion times and also I remember once in a store, a customer complaining to the boss there that some worker said these things to him. He was very angry and loud, was kind of hard to miss. And there are other examples that I remember clearly. This isn't my imagination.

 

As you admit to having been psychotic, I don't think we can take your word for that. Delusion or hallucination sounds infinitely more likely than someone actually saying these things.

Even here in israel when I speak about this it is considered weird, but it is just repressed by them. They are even lying I think, as they do know about the phenomenon and are just repressing it.

 

OK. It definitely sounds like it is happening in your head. (No shame in that.)

Edited February 8, 2016 by Strange

[Phi for All]

I had a roommate once who was a great guy. Nickname of Marius. Archaeologist major. Neopagan Druid priest. We all loved him. He would mutter and have conversations with himself a lot. What we didn't know was that Marius had paranoid delusional fantasies often, but he was very good at not letting them slip. If he walked down the street by himself, he'd have these very vivid fantasies that strangers were out to get him. Once in a while, we'd get a story from him about being cursed out on the bus, or a police officer beat him up.

 

Both this story and Eldad's underscore that this phenomenon starts with the behavior of the person whose delusions somehow allow them to dismiss that behavior. There is a violent reaction on one side, allegedly for no good reason, which doesn't make sense. We never hear the other side of the story, what that person did to initiate someone cursing them out, or a police officer beating them up, or bystanders objecting to being masturbated on.

 

One way I can make sense of Eldad's story is to imagine he has a nervous habit of making a gesture with his hand that resembles masturbating. One of those things people do, like playing with a curl of hair, or tapping their finger on a desk. Only this one is inappropriate. He doesn't realize he's doing it, but people see him making that gesture and it's so out of place in public that they shout in response. I'm not saying this is the case, but it would explain the behavior. Or the whole thing could be imagined. Either are more likely than what Eldad described.

 

We know there are those out there who are badly damaged, who rant and rave at strangers as if it's a rational thing to do. We also know there are those who function on a more mainstream level, like Marius, who are interesting and quirky, but still seem a bit disconnected with their role in reality. People adore patterns, and when someone behaves in a bizarre manner, it's tough not to come off as cruel in response. But is it cruel to at least start by suggesting that a diagnosis of paranoid delusions by a professional should indicate the person needs to avoid making decisions based solely on the bizarre things they think up?

[Strange]

Once in a while, we'd get a story from him about being cursed out on the bus, or a police officer beat him up.

 

Do you know if he had been beaten up by someone? And, if so, that it was a police officer? Or was the whole thing imagined? Or was it by someone other than a police officer? But the whole thing could be provoked by the individual's behaviour.

Even without invoking mental illness: I had a friend who was stopped by a policeman in Italy. He spoke some basic Italian and so thought things were OK. Suddenly the policeman turned quite unpleasant and the friend was taken off to the police station. He never understood what had gone wrong - had he accidentally used a bad word? Or used the informal "tu" form instead of "Lei"? Or was the officer just stroppy? We will never know.

[Sirona]

 

Both this story and Eldad's underscore that this phenomenon starts with the behavior of the person whose delusions somehow allow them to dismiss that behavior. There is a violent reaction on one side, allegedly for no good reason, which doesn't make sense. We never hear the other side of the story, what that person did to initiate someone cursing them out, or a police officer beating them up, or bystanders objecting to being masturbated on.

 

One way I can make sense of Eldad's story is to imagine he has a nervous habit of making a gesture with his hand that resembles masturbating. One of those things people do, like playing with a curl of hair, or tapping their finger on a desk. Only this one is inappropriate. He doesn't realize he's doing it, but people see him making that gesture and it's so out of place in public that they shout in response. I'm not saying this is the case, but it would explain the behavior. Or the whole thing could be imagined. Either are more likely than what Eldad described.

 

We know there are those out there who are badly damaged, who rant and rave at strangers as if it's a rational thing to do. We also know there are those who function on a more mainstream level, like Marius, who are interesting and quirky, but still seem a bit disconnected with their role in reality. People adore patterns, and when someone behaves in a bizarre manner, it's tough not to come off as cruel in response. But is it cruel to at least start by suggesting that a diagnosis of paranoid delusions by a professional should indicate the person needs to avoid making decisions based solely on the bizarre things they think up?

Nicely said, Phi.

 

It's sad that people often ostracise others because they don't fit into the mould of social norms, but it is what it is. It would also explain the aggressive behaviour as that is a common consequence of social rejection.

 

 

[Phi for All]

 

Even without invoking mental illness: I had a friend who was stopped by a policeman in Italy. He spoke some basic Italian and so thought things were OK. Suddenly the policeman turned quite unpleasant and the friend was taken off to the police station. He never understood what had gone wrong - had he accidentally used a bad word? Or used the informal "tu" form instead of "Lei"? Or was the officer just stroppy? We will never know.

 

In the US (where we have grown the business of law enforcement to its present 25% global market share), much of what a police officer asks you is trying to get you to somehow contradict yourself, to lie, or to appear nervous. This gives them probable cause, and empowers them greatly. I wonder if your friend didn't trigger some procedural response because he changed a previous statement by accident, or seemed more nervous than his basic grasp of the language would account for.

[Eldad Eshel]

I will say again, this phenomenon I described is real, it isn't my imagination or my psychosis. I am very stable today and consider my self healthy as any other healthy individual. And just today I was walking in the street and had these profane comments thrown at me. I am not violent these days, wish to avoid confrontation, and all I do is answer with "look who's talking". They also say it to one another not just at me. I hear it and am appalled. I don't have any blatant bad habit either. I even confirmed with my friend today again about these comments. He knows about it too, is aware of it and can talk about it. Is funny how you guys reject the truth.

[Phi for All]

Is funny how you guys reject the truth.

 

Or how we view your admittedly problematic explanations.

 

You're not trustworthy. I mean this in the scientific sense, that your explanations have no evidence to support them, so they're all just hand-waving insistence that it's the truth.

 

I think belief is three separate processes. Faith asks you to believe strongly with no support. Wishful thinking is just hoping something is true, even though you know it probably isn't. And the third is trust, believing in something because you've examined it rationally and have learned all you can about it, what others know about it, what reality says about it. I try to use trust as much as possible as my belief system. Trust requires evidence, and matching reality. It should be no wonder why we don't trust your "truth".

[Robittybob1]

I will say again, this phenomenon I described is real, it isn't my imagination or my psychosis. I am very stable today and consider my self healthy as any other healthy individual. And just today I was walking in the street and had these profane comments thrown at me. I am not violent these days, wish to avoid confrontation, and all I do is answer with "look who's talking". They also say it to one another not just at me. I hear it and am appalled. I don't have any blatant bad habit either. I even confirmed with my friend today again about these comments. He knows about it too, is aware of it and can talk about it. Is funny how you guys reject the truth.

Have you thought of doing a documentary on the subject. There were some classic clips of having a woman walking down a street and observing people's reactions, particularly of men, to that.

I would hate to live in a place where I'm accused of being a wanker, even though in NZ some do this in friendly way.

 

But if you had it on film society could have a chance to self analyse itself. Hopefully for the better.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Robittybob1

[Eldad Eshel]

Have you thought of doing a documentary on the subject. There were some classic clips of having a woman walking down a street and observing people's reactions, particularly of men, to that.

I would hate to live in a place where I'm accused of being a wanker, even though in NZ some do this in friendly way.

 

But if you had it on film society could have a chance to self analyse itself. Hopefully for the better.

Haha Robitty you just love videos don't you. It is a good idea I have to say.

[kisai]

 

Do you know if he had been beaten up by someone? And, if so, that it was a police officer? Or was the whole thing imagined? Or was it by someone other than a police officer? But the whole thing could be provoked by the individual's behaviour.?

 

No, he wasn't actually beaten up. When he recounted his story, it seemed cartoonish. The policeman had a strong Southern accent (we were living in New York) and he told the story from the point of view of the officer ("Don't come around, here, BOY! *WHAM*" As Marius made broad striking motions that the policeman would have made even though at this point of the story, Marius would have been in a fetal position on the ground from being hit 6-8 times.). Marius never appeared harmed. It didn't seem realistic at all.

 

Marius is such a strong introvert, and a little slip of a guy, being 5'2" and 120 lbs. soaking wet, that he would never get in trouble.

Edited February 8, 2016 by kisai

[Ken Fabian]

Eldad Eshel, had you not mentioned psychosis this discussion probably would not be proceeding as it is. I don't think that admission is sufficient reason to disbelieve your account and being disbelieved appears to be one of the ways those who suffer from mental illnesses are often discriminated against; according to a friend who spent time in a Psych hospital, the first thing that happened was staff treated what he told them as unreliable, even what was relevant. I don't think what you are describing is less believable than some of the forms of verbal abuse I've witnessed or been subjected to; those could be described and discussed by me, probably without being suspected of being delusional. I think ordinary 'sane' lying and deception is a far more common form of unreliability than psychosis and delusion.

 

What you are describing sounds like the sort of verbal abuse that people who are territorial might use for strangers or outsiders although you didn't indicate that was the case. My brother described visiting an ethnic part of an Indian city where the men wore traditional dress that include a big knife/small sword; at his appearance hands went to those and some kind of clasps were audibly being unclipped. Accompanied by hostile glares. What you describe could be a kind of provocative bad behaviour that has become locally popular for the same reasons and lack of reasons other provocative bad behaviours have. As disturbing as "A f**k or a fight!" addressed, with obvious sincerity, to everyone who passes by?

[Eldad Eshel]

I am actually very sane and stable these days. I have very good hearing, I think better than most other people, and I hear these remarks very clearly. I think most people don't have the best hearing and maybe don't hear it, or hear it so dimly they don't 100% believe in it. I also confirmed with a second friend about the profane comments. In Israel for sure it is a very popular trend. Most people also don't look other people in the street straight in the eyes, I however do this, I like to see faces. Usually after I do this they will say the comment. Also if a girl senses I am attracted to her she will say it. I see it as a sort of social competition, in the realm of the "allowed". As previously mentioned they don't say it just to me, but also to one another, I hear it all the time, it is quite ugly.

[Gabe H]

When I try to think about issues like this I try not to use any emotion and purly use logic and reasoning so this might sound crazy to most ppl. I don't see humans as special I just see every human as somthing that is just made of cells and is trying to live long enough to have children. I don't see humans as any different from rats for bacteria. Because This is how I see humans it makes me feel like there is no reason why a person should have any morals your ony goul in life should be to achieve as much possible for your self because you don't owe anything to anyone else. This is how I see things but odviously these opinions don't make me just run around and do all kinds of bad stuff because I have emotions and I could get in a lot of trouble but I said all this because I think it is how a lot of bad people reason with themselves that what they are doing is okay.

[dimreepr]

When I try to think about issues like this I try not to use any emotion and purly use logic and reasoning so this might sound crazy to most ppl. I don't see humans as special I just see every human as somthing that is just made of cells and is trying to live long enough to have children. I don't see humans as any different from rats for bacteria. Because This is how I see humans it makes me feel like there is no reason why a person should have any morals your ony goul in life should be to achieve as much possible for your self because you don't owe anything to anyone else. This is how I see things but odviously these opinions don't make me just run around and do all kinds of bad stuff because I have emotions and I could get in a lot of trouble but I said all this because I think it is how a lot of bad people reason with themselves that what they are doing is okay.

 

PERCHANCE he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill as that he knows not it tolls for him. And perchance I may think myself so much better than I am...

...No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

Logical and unemotional.

[Gabe H]

 

PERCHANCE he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill as that he knows not it tolls for him. And perchance I may think myself so much better than I am...

 

...No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

 

Logical and unemotional.

 

 

 

 

What?

Edited July 2, 2016 by Gabe H

[dimreepr]

Even bad people need others.

[marieltrokan]

I'd say it's usually because of the knowledge of uniformity. If person X won't tell person Y that they deserve free housing, it'll usually be because of the knowledge that person Z, T and W can all be told the same thing as well.

In general, this is perhaps why politics and government exist in the first place - as well as borders and nations.

[dimreepr]

I'd say it's usually because of the knowledge of uniformity.

 

 

By which I imagine you mean culture?

 

 

If person X won't tell person Y that they deserve free housing, it'll usually be because of the knowledge that person Z, T and W can all be told the same thing as well.

 

 

 

I don't understand what you're getting at here, please try again.

 

In general, this is perhaps why politics and government exist in the first place - as well as borders and nations.

 

 

 

It's an inevitable consequence of an intelligent social creature, much like elephants, orca's, lions, wolves etc. have a hierarchy and form a pod or pack etc.

Cruelty is a consequence of hate and the only cure is tolerance.

Edited July 2, 2016 by dimreepr

[marieltrokan]

There is logic to your questions. By uniformity, an example would be a news network not asking what Cristina Kirchner's (the ex-President of Argentina) opinion is of Star Wars The Force Awakens - or, if not Kirchner, basically anyone's opinion without reason.

[dimreepr]

Corruption occurs when people fear an unknowable future and forgets for whom the bell tolls.

Edited July 2, 2016 by dimreepr

[quickquestion]

 

 

By which I imagine you mean culture?

 

 

 

 

 

I don't understand what you're getting at here, please try again.

 

 

 

 

It's an inevitable consequence of an intelligent social creature, much like elephants, orca's, lions, wolves etc. have a hierarchy and form a pod or pack etc.

Cruelty is a consequence of hate and the only cure is tolerance.

Hate is a consequence of cruelty.

 

Snap your fingers and envy won't disappear.

 

If 90% of the population is wealthy and has daily orgies, while the other 10% live in lovelessness and squalor...rest assured, blood will be shed.

[Velocity_Boy]

Hate is a consequence of cruelty.

 

Snap your fingers and envy won't disappear.

 

If 90% of the population is wealthy and has daily orgies, while the other 10% live in lovelessness and squalor...rest assured, blood will be shed.

Cruelty is not the only thing that can foster hatred.

 

And envy in and of itself is not really a problem. Not nearly as much as its ugly cousin, jealousy.

 

And. Uh, is it me or did you accidently reverse your percentages in your final sentence there? Because the way it reads doesn't make sense. Or were you referring to some specific society in the past?

Put two 12-18 month old children to play together with a few toys, will they share? Kind people are made, selfish is the natural state. This proactive intelligent behaviour modification in our offspring from their 'natural' behaviour is a major part of what defines us a species.

As far as to whether or not those two kids will share....Who knows? You certainly cannot claim with any degree of accuracy that they surely will not share. It depends on their upbringing and previous environment.

 

As far as greed being hardwired. Not so fast. Most psychologists in the area of Evolutionary Psychology have agreed that at some point in our distant past we homo sapiens discovered the benefits of altruistic behavior.

 

 

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athletes-way/201212/the-evolutionary-biology-altruism

Edited April 10, 2017 by Velocity_Boy

[StringJunky]

As far as greed being hardwired. Not so fast. Most psychologists in the area of Evolutionary Psychology have agreed that at some point in our distant past we homo sapiens discovered the benefits of altruistic behavior.

 

 

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-athletes-way/201212/the-evolutionary-biology-altruism

I was talking about toddlers.

[Velocity_Boy]

I was talking about toddlers.

 

 

So be it.

 

My answer to you would be the same as my OP. If Evolutionary Psych guys are thinking that we evolved to appreciate the merits and advantages of Altruistic behavior then even toddlers would be imbued with that same "hard wiring." And again, it also depends on their home environment. IOW: its both Nature and Nurture. As it is in most matters regarding human behavior.

 

That said, though I would have offered my same answer had I know you were referring to toddlers, I might have given a more pertinent link.

 

Like this one, perhaps?

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3088085/

Edited April 10, 2017 by Velocity_Boy

[StringJunky]

 

 

So be it.

 

My answer to you would be the same as my OP. If Evolutionary Psych guys are thinking that we evolved to appreciate the merits and advantages of Altruistic behavior then even toddlers would be imbued with that same "hard wiring." And again, it also depends on their home environment. IOW: its both Nature and Nurture. As it is in most matters regarding human behavior.

 

That said, though I would have offered my same answer had I know you were referring to toddlers, I might have given a more pertinent link.

 

Like this one, perhaps?

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3088085/

It might not be expressed until certain parts of the brain are developed enough because it's a function them.