Vegetable Gardening

[StringJunky]

The harm insofar as science and the forum goes is in ignoring evidence and opting for bullshit. My thoughts are as well grounded as my peas, squashes, tomatoes, jalapeños, spinach and radishes which are already up and enjoying the Sun.

How gracious of you.

That's alright. You never know, he might be the next Galileo.

[Acme]

That's alright. You never know, he might be the next Galileo.

At the risk of being snotty, we do in fact know. Galileo he ain't.

 

Edit: Addendum:

 

Following up on Galileo, ignoring evidence in favor of magic, and snottiness, I will point out that it is I in fact in this circumstance that shares characteristics with the man. You see Galileo got house arrest in good part not just for pointing out factual errors of the church, but for mocking the church's position in his book Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems. Therein, Galileo casts un-critical thinkers as the character Simplicito, a double entendre for simple minded.

 

So I'm in good company and take my red card as a mark of it.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Acme

[Ant Sinclair]

Go suck a dogs bone Acme, what does this have to do with vegetable gardening

[Endy0816]

Only aspect that could realistically have an impact is moonlight(or lack thereof).

 

Nocturnal flower pollination, nocturnal pests, photoperiodic time measurement interference; would be what you would want to look into.

[Acme]

Go suck a dogs bone Acme, what does this have to do with vegetable gardening

How perfectly civil of you. Not that you follow explanations well, but I will explain what this has to do with gardening.

You start the thread saying:

...

I read on an "alternative" web site a while ago that planting at certain times of the Lunar Cycle increases harvest yield, is there any science behind this?...

I, et al, give citations that there is no evidence for it. Then, you opt for ignoring that there is no evidence and return to an 'alternative science' site saying:

I found this site and will plant Dwarf French Beans, Runner Beans and Peas over the next few days, leave it a week or two and plant the same again.

Guide to planting by the moon

At that link they make claims that actual scientific study disclaims. They say:

It was noticed that different plants grow better when they are planted during different phases of the moon. Each of these phases imparts an influence on the way vegetation grows on the planet through the rising and falling of the moisture in the ground and in the plants.

 

To provide more accurate records it was noted that certain crops faired better when planted whilst the moon was in a specific constellation. As the moon can take only 2-3 days to pass through a constellation, the planting calendar was a 'cutting edge' technology. ...

StringJunky then points out an article that explains your error in reasoning, which is ultimately a gardening mistake.

Stop blaming the moon: Study highlights flaws in earlier research on hospital admissions and the lunar cycle

He didn't quote from the article, so I will.

...So why do the erroneous beliefs live on in spite of the evidence?

 

Margot cited what scientists refer to as the "confirmation bias"people's tendency to interpret information in a way that confirms their beliefs and ignore data that contradict them. ...

So that's what this has to do with gardening.

 

Only aspect that could realistically have an impact is moonlight(or lack thereof).

 

Nocturnal flower pollination, nocturnal pests, photoperiodic time measurement interference; would be what you would want to look into.

Well, what impact exactly are you referring to? An increased yield as Ant first asks about? Early germination as talked about in some of the cited studies? Gardeners being able to work at night? And what is 'photoperiodic time measurement interference' exactly and how would that influence a garden?

[StringJunky]

... And what is 'photoperiodic time measurement interference' exactly and how would that influence a garden?

Photoperiod often determines flowering time and if you get a lot of clear nights with strong moonshine it could affect the timing of the flowering.

[Acme]

 

... And what is 'photoperiodic time measurement interference' exactly and how would that influence a garden?

Photoperiod often determines flowering time and if you get a lot of clear nights with strong moonshine it could affect the timing of the flowering.

 

Thank you I'm sure, but I'd still like to hear from Endy.

 

Moreover, since flowering is actually detrimental to some vegetables in the garden then there is no preponderant benefit. Of course if you have any bona fide studies relating the Moon to vegetable flowering, please present them.

 

At any rate, Ant's question is about planting by the Moon.

 

I have to ask: why did you see fit to call out my being snotty and let Ant's retort pass?

Edited March 31, 2015 by Acme

[StringJunky]

.

I have to ask: why did you see fit to call out my being snotty and let Ant's retort pass?

You mean about you having "tractor envy"? Snotty deserves snotty especially when it's laced with a humorous sting. I'm not being too serious really.

[Acme]

You mean about you having "tractor envy"? Snotty deserves snotty especially when it's laced with a humorous sting. I'm not being too serious really.

No, I mean about telling me to suck a bone. While this is admittedly off-topic, you opened the door so I'm in. Basically you're saying snottiness is OK when you find it funny, and since you didn't find any humor in my comment you saw fit to neg rep it. Again, how gracious & fair of you. I don't suppose you have anything on the topic of planting by the Moon perchance?

[StringJunky]

.... I don't suppose you have anything on the topic of planting by the Moon perchance?

No, only that moonshine might have an effect.

[Endy0816]

Yeah, that was the same point I was making. Not that it has an impact on crop yields, but that it could have an impact. Honestly, having to pick between tides and moonlight makes it a pretty easy choice, especially considering we're talking about plants here. Possibly there is some plant some where in the world that can sense the tides, but it is unlikely to be in anyone's gardens.

 

http://www.biog1445.org/demo/07/plantgrowthlight.html

 

is where I found that bit from, though there is a proper paper available online as well.

 

What impact, how much of an impact and whether it is even the same for different crops are all things OP could realistically hope to investigate.

[Acme]

Yeah, that was the same point I was making. Not that it has an impact on crop yields, but that it could have an impact. Honestly, having to pick between tides and moonlight makes it a pretty easy choice, especially considering we're talking about plants here. Possibly there is some plant some where in the world that can sense the tides, but it is unlikely to be in anyone's gardens.

 

http://www.biog1445.org/demo/07/plantgrowthlight.html

 

is where I found that bit from, though there is a proper paper available online as well.

 

What impact, how much of an impact and whether it is even the same for different crops are all things OP could realistically hope to investigate.

As to tidal effect, it would depend ultimately on available water. If the soil is dry then the Moon phase has nothing to act on.

 

As to the light, the article on light you cited says:

Although it is not clear why low light intensities promote flowering more than darkness, these examples provide some rational basis for the superstition of planting particular seeds by the light of the full moon. Another full moon one lunar cycle later could have profound promotive effects on flowering. ...

So they say right up that Moon planting is superstition, there is no clear mechanism, they don't say what 'particular' seeds, and 'could have' is next to useless. There is also an assumption that flowering occurs a month after planting and no particular example of plants with that habit given, and as I earlier pointed out it is undesirable to have many vegetables flower. One does not want beets, spinach, or radishes to bolt for example.

 

What we are left with is oodles of superstition and confirmation bias and virtually no scientific evidence that there is any benefit to planting on a full Moon.

[Endy0816]

They are saying it is a superstition, which is true, but also that the facts presented provide a possible logical reason for the development of that superstition.

 

After a bit of rewriting:

 

Although it is not clear why disease spreads more easily after not washing one's hands before eating, these examples provide some rational basis for the religious practice of washing one's hands before eating.

 

Interestingly this general concept comes up in a text book, with some guy famous for going on a boat ride and writing a book providing an alternative explaination.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=qm83oUAjupgC&pg=PT230&lpg=PT230&dq=nastic+movements+legumes&source=bl&ots=M6VHH9E8kM&sig=2Llugzwb80WUtKq7s3DtkZYHM10&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G1EcVfr4JcG9ggTaioHICQ&ved=0CFUQ6AEwDA#v=onepage&q=nastic%20movements%20legumes&f=false

 

Either way, little research since the 70's. Have at it. Were it me, I'd give evolution another chance to come up with a proper clock and not this sensor based nonsense we all use.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Endy0816

[Acme]

They are saying it is a superstition, which is true, but also that the facts presented provide a possible logical reason for the development of that superstition.

 

After a bit of rewriting:

 

 

Interestingly this general concept comes up in a text book, with some guy famous for going on a boat ride and writing a book providing an alternative explaination.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=qm83oUAjupgC&pg=PT230&lpg=PT230&dq=nastic+movements+legumes&source=bl&ots=M6VHH9E8kM&sig=2Llugzwb80WUtKq7s3DtkZYHM10&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G1EcVfr4JcG9ggTaioHICQ&ved=0CFUQ6AEwDA#v=onepage&q=nastic%20movements%20legumes&f=false

 

Either way, little research since the 70's. Have at it. Were it me, I'd give evolution another chance to come up with a proper clock and not this sensor based nonsense we all use.

In short, there is no rational reason to plant by the Moon.

[Endy0816]

Meh, getting into decision making with incomplete information there.

 

For plants their best strategy is going to hinge upon on timing. Timing done via light sensors can be thrown off by light pollution. For some plants the moon could reasonably act as a source of light pollution.

 

That's the gist of my logic. Practically speaking we could talk purely in terms of varying light levels over a span of time without ever mentioning any astronomical objects.

[Acme]

 

In short, there is no rational reason to plant by the Moon.

Meh, getting into decision making with incomplete information there.

 

Well, since planting by the Moon is the topic, 'meh' doesn't quite cover it in my honest opinion. Moreover, it's not incomplete information other than scientific studies show there is no evidence planting by the Moon improves yield, speeds germination, or speeds flowering. Ergo, no rational reason to plant by the Moon, which is to say planting by the Moon is to prefer myth over science.

 

For plants their best strategy is going to hinge upon on timing. Timing done via light sensors can be thrown off by light pollution. For some plants the moon could reasonably act as a source of light pollution.

 

That's the gist of my logic. Practically speaking we could talk purely in terms of varying light levels over a span of time without ever mentioning any astronomical objects.

In terms of timing, for many plants the germinating and growing is a matter of an astronomical object, i.e. the Sun. Specifically it's a matter of day length, though different plants exhibit different responses to day length, as well as rising temperature as a result of increasing day length and angle of incidence of sunlight.

I don't discount that it is known that the period of darkness is also a factor for plants' growth and that the Moon and light pollution can affect growth, however this again has nothing to do with planting by the Moon.

 

Moon phases cycle in relation to seasons and weather cycles in relation to Moon phases, which is to say there is not always a Full Moon coincident with Spring planting and the Moon may be and often is obscured by clouds. While clouds don't affect the tidal pull of the Moon, scientific studies have found no correlation with that pull, and as I earlier said if there's no water to pull then the alleged affect is moot.

[Endy0816]

I say, meh because sometimes something apparently irrational is the correct action within the basis of the information you do have.

 

Leviticus 25:2-7, "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD. Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof; But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard. That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land. And the sabbath of the land shall be meat for you; for thee, and for thy servant, and for thy maid, and for thy hired servant, and for thy stranger that sojourneth with thee, And for thy cattle, and for the beast that are in thy land, shall all the increase thereof be meat."

 

Absolutely retarded, right? Letting land lie fallow for a year.

[Acme]

I say, meh because sometimes something apparently irrational is the correct action within the basis of the information you do have.

But presumably we're having a scientific discussion on a science forum, and we have scientific information at hand.

 

Leviticus 25:2-7, "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD. Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof; But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard. That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land. And the sabbath of the land shall be meat for you; for thee, and for thy servant, and for thy maid, and for thy hired servant, and for thy stranger that sojourneth with thee, And for thy cattle, and for the beast that are in thy land, shall all the increase thereof be meat."

 

Absolutely retarded, right? Letting land lie fallow for a year.

Red herring for thee and thy sup.

 

Fortunately I like herring so I'll nibble your bait. Is there some scientific evidence 7 years is better than say 5, or 8, or some other period of cycling? What crops exactly? In what climes? And do vintners today really not prune or harvest every 7^th year? And what is the rational for not harvesting that 'which groweth of its own accord '? Should we really let food rot because some unknown writer in a moldy old book sayeth the Lord saideth? Say what?

[Endy0816]

You have just rather cavalierly dismissed an important aspect of crop rotation. I honestly figured you would spot that one.

 

Today we compost but the 'let it rot where it is' solution could reasonably be expected to improve yields in later years as well.

 

And there are indeed vintners who still practice this today.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/after-rockets-farmer-races-to-recover-before-going-fallow/

 

Our ancestors sometimes figured things out and passed it down to us in the form of religious passages and superstitions. Sometimes instead of passing along wisdom they confused correlation and causation or just made crap up. Either you shouldn't commit a logical fallacy yourself in thinking of it as merely a 'moldy old book'.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Endy0816

[StringJunky]

You have just rather cavalierly dismissed an important aspect of crop rotation. I honestly figured you would spot that one.

 

Today we compost but the 'let it rot where it is' solution could reasonably be expected to improve yields in later years as well.

 

And there are indeed vintners who still practice this today.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/after-rockets-farmer-races-to-recover-before-going-fallow/

 

Our ancestors sometimes figured things out and passed it down to us in the form of religious passages and superstitions. Sometimes instead of passing along wisdom they confused correlation and causation or just made crap up. Either you shouldn't commit a logical fallacy yourself in thinking of it as merely a 'moldy old book'.

Also, people that do something in a ritualistic way are more likely to have success because they are doing it with care and repeatable consistency.

[John Cuthber]

You have just rather cavalierly dismissed an important aspect of crop rotation. I honestly figured you would spot that one.

 

Today we compost but the 'let it rot where it is' solution could reasonably be expected to improve yields in later years as well.

 

And there are indeed vintners who still practice this today.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/after-rockets-farmer-races-to-recover-before-going-fallow/

 

Our ancestors sometimes figured things out and passed it down to us in the form of religious passages and superstitions. Sometimes instead of passing along wisdom they confused correlation and causation or just made crap up. Either you shouldn't commit a logical fallacy yourself in thinking of it as merely a 'moldy old book'.

And, since those days they have continued with the idea of crop rotation.

But, for the most part, they have abandoned the 7 year cycle (which is what Acme actually said).

 

The "mouldy old book" gives the wrong number of years; I strongly suspect that they chose 7 for the same reasons that Newton "found" 7 colours in the rainbow.

It's mystic hogwash and, for crop rotation, it gives the wrong answer.

Also, people that do something in a ritualistic way are more likely to have success because they are doing it with care and repeatable consistency.

Alternatively, those who didn't slavishly follow the old book got better results with shorter cycles.

for example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Agricultural_Revolution#Crop_rotation

[Endy0816]

It evolved over time sure. One hopes it would have considering they had a few thousand years to make improvements. As a concept though the idea of land remaining fallow had to start somewhere. If you knew nothing better though even without possessing any understanding the reasons behind it, you would still be rationally better off following a biblical passage as compared with continually raising crops on single plot of land.

 

Honestly the number 7 probably relates back to the(earlier) flood myth. We still have our hoary old week hanging about.

 

Also, people that do something in a ritualistic way are more likely to have success because they are doing it with care and repeatable consistency.

 

yeah, there is that aspect as compared with our modern methods.

 

 

Just to note, Shmita is still a fairly big deal.

 

Honestly I didn't even know there was a biblical connection myself before searching. I just knew that letting land lie fallow fell into that same category of "rational yet non-obvious". You see something like that and you can be virtually assured it traces back to superstition or religion.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Endy0816

[John Cuthber]

Where is the irrationality?

People need to rest, animals need to rest, the land needs to rest.

 

Also, it seems to have "evolved" from the God-given wrong answer.

[Endy0816]

Have to reason more along the lines that a great number of people noticed that upon raising crops on land left untended they had a better harvest. Then they made up an explanation to fit. You should never want to be the guy claiming that hand washing is unfounded or that there is no basis to let your land lie fallow. Obviously there was/is a basis, they just didn't have what we term evidence in support.

[Acme]

You have just rather cavalierly dismissed an important aspect of crop rotation. I honestly figured you would spot that one.

The passage says nothing about crop rotation, which is planting different crops on the same land.

 

Today we compost but the 'let it rot where it is' solution could reasonably be expected to improve yields in later years as well.

Composting only requires leaving the non-edible plant parts; we don't as a rule compost the eatable harvest.

 

And there are indeed vintners who still practice this today.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/after-rockets-farmer-races-to-recover-before-going-fallow/

And those are Jews doing it for religious and not scientific reasons.

 

Our ancestors sometimes figured things out and passed it down to us in the form of religious passages and superstitions. Sometimes instead of passing along wisdom they confused correlation and causation or just made crap up. Either you shouldn't commit a logical fallacy yourself in thinking of it as merely a 'moldy old book'.

OK