girl boss, non white guy boss

[randomc]

 

 

Evidence enters into it when you make claims such as, 'men don't like competing with women.' If you make statements like that, you need to be able to back them up with evidence. If you can't, then your premise and the ideas that you draw from it have no basis.

 

mmmfff... for what it's worth, the contemporary emphasis on developing a strong "cult" of femininity is better than the old-school attacks on the "cult" of masculinity. Segueing back toward reality. Definitely better for the workplace, i would've thought.

I understand where randomc is coming from, but part of being in the workplace is getting along to the extent that the job can be done. This is irrespective of your personal views and ideologies. You may even by law be required to leave such things 'at the door'.

 

Whoever pisses you off, pisses you off and you have the right to not like everyone for any reason you see fit. You just need to let it wash over you as best you can and do your job. If the situation becomes intolerable then you should seek advice from seniors at the workplace. Beware, saying 'cos she is a girl' is unlikely to get you very far (there maybe very specific roles where this could matter, but not generally).

 

So on that, what is your job?

right, right, i suppose professionalism sort of transcends this sort of stuff. I'm not a professional and i take your point.

Edited April 4, 2015 by randomc

[ajb]

right, right, i suppose professionalism sort of transcends this sort of stuff. I'm not a professional and i take your point.

I think this is the 'long and short' of it.

 

Your other option is to find a different job where working with women is less likely, or maybe less likely they would be your immediate superior. I think that is becoming harder today, but still possible.

[MigL]

Point is ..

They pay you for putting up with this woman.

Its a lot easier than digging ditches, isn't it ?

 

I hope they're paying her a lot more for putting up with your attitude.

[ajb]

I hope they're paying her a lot more for putting up with your attitude.

Maybe that is part of the friction!

[Fuzzwood]

Look, that you have the feeling that you somehow have to compensate for something (ie. your male 'competitiveness') is all in your head, ergo your problem.

[John Cuthber]

But i haven't provided a damn shred of evidence and i've already moved you from "sexist preconceptions" to "undercurrents of sexism".

If you take the undercurrents of bias out of the thread title it says

"Boss boss".

[Strange]

I've had bosses from several demographics, and the one i couldn't click with was the female kurd, and it wasn't because she was kurdish.

 

So what do you think of me?

 

I think you need to grow up. If you are old enough to have a job, you shouldn't be behaving like a teenager.

ok, i enjoy competition in general, but competing with women isn't the same.

 

Why do you feel the need to compete with your boss? Surely the idea is to work together to get the job done.

I think it was just her style... she was what... passive aggressive becomes when you give it authority? I've come across guys like that (phi, for eg) who have been my boss but they don't piss me off to the same extent.

 

https://xkcd.com/385/

[LaurieAG]

I think it was just her style... she was what... passive aggressive becomes when you give it authority? I've come across guys like that (phi, for eg) who have been my boss but they don't piss me off to the same extent.

 

inows see previous comment is where this has to end....

 

randomc, I found the following on Wikipedia with regards to passive aggressiveness that I can directly relate to non technical bosses managing technical professionals, especially in female dominated work environments. The strange thing is that I have also worked in both male and female dominated work groups, in similar technical capacities, and have never had any issues like this in male dominated groups, mainly because that type of behavior would be regarded as bullying, including in the ones I've worked in with female bosses.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior

In conflict theory[edit]

In conflict theory, passive resistance is a rational response to demands that may simply be disagreed with. Passive-aggressive behavior can resemble a behavior better described as catty, as it consists of deliberate, active, but carefully veiled hostile acts which are distinctively different in character from the non-assertive style of passive aggression.^[4]

 

I can understand why you don't want to go into details so I'll supply you with a few examples from my own past experience, that you might be able to relate to.

 

When I started in a projects team in a female dominated (90%) section of 50 people in a 3K+ employee organisation I had a female technical boss who had a good understanding of the technical issues at hand and we worked well together and had a good rapport due to mutual respect. That changed after a couple of months when a non technical female was rotated into my bosses position and my technical minded female boss was rotated elsewhere.

 

Initially I would just give my new boss the same executive summary type information that I gave my previous boss and reserved the technical detail for the technical people I worked with. Unfortunately she questioned everything so each small paragraph or sentence became a detailed novella with many chapters, and very quickly she was in over her head, multiple times. If she had only trusted that the information I communicated to her in good faith was correct she would not have had the breakdown.

 

After her breakdown she changed and showed assertive passive aggression that matched the bolded points from the Wki above.

 

Shortly after at my first one on one meeting alone with her she said that she and the team did not want to receive any emails or speak to me with regards to the work I was doing in the team, even my designated backup. I just continued working with everybody else in the team in the same way I always did because they were technical people who didn't have a problem, but whenever I came near her she would put up the barriers and smother any attempt at communication.

 

At my second (six months later) one on one meeting alone with her she told me that my contract would not be extended when it finished in 4 months time. I didn't think that what my boss told me was false (my contract was extended another 2 times for 1.25 years, 4 months later) so I never realised that she was bullying me until much later on. I honestly believed what she told me to the extent that 3 months later, I responded via email to the CEO's secretary with regards to a CEO request for an update on my project, with a final paragraph that I had been informed by my boss that my contract would not be renewed.

 

I didn't realise that I was being bullied for about a year because I was so busy working. Over that year I attended 2 team meetings where my boss organised for another female employee to assist me and both times, 10 months apart, the other employee was allowed to take 4 weeks of annual leave when the time came along. I was exhausted due to not being able to take any holidays but glad because everything was rolling out smoothly without any help. This was just when she revealed her hidden hand.

 

Bullying behavior by males or females only has one end randomc, it should not be allowed to survive in any responsible organisation.

 

If you have problems that are anything remotely like the above, check if your organisation has some sort of Public Interest Disclosure (PID) system in place where bullying etc can be reported by employees and investigated internally without disclosure. In some countries, state or federal legislation can require organisations of certain sizes to have these types of systems in place. An organisation usually needs some sort of a PID if it has systems whose access is incumbent on employees signing confidentiality undertakings, with dob clauses, (due to state/federal Info Privacy and/or Info Sec legislation) if they become aware of unauthorised disclosures or modifications of system information by other employees or third parties.

 

Please note that all of my comments above are related to non technical females 45+ working in technical roles. I regularly work with female inspectors/engineers doing QA on major infrastructure projects and have never been bullied in any way shape or form. I give her the QA test results and she decides whether the job continues or not based on those results so she may as well be the boss.

 

One way that bullying can be detected is through unusual rosters singling out individual employees. From personal experience, and unfortunately after the event, I can say to watch out if 1/ you are given a 2 week roster with 2 days off at either end and work 10 days straight, then have 2 consecutive 2/ 2 week rosters without more than a single day off in a row where you finish late before your day off and start early straight after your day off. This gets really interesting if you rotate between 5 different shift start times: 2am, 5am, 7am, 11am and 2pm and roll out the final 5 consecutive days 3/ by starting the first shift at 2pm, the next at 11am, the next at 7am, the next at 5am and the final shift at 2am. I was positively jet lagged by the end so I didn't notice the roster pattern described above.

 

The disturbing thing was that the boss who designed these rosters was a white haired 60 year old grandmother, in a female dominant industry, who knew exactly what she was doing.

[Ten oz]

Conflicts in the work place don't end at male vs female. Som people have a problem with bosses that are younger, of different religions, speak a different first language, or etc, etc, etc. In every case I think it is critical to view the situation individually. The relationship of supervisor and subordinate is not between an individual and an entire demographic. It is between two individuals. It is not neccessary to focus on the entire demographic of your co-worker(s). Deal with the individual directly.

Besides, everyone works for someone they don't like at some point in their life.

[randomc]

 

randomc, I found the following on Wikipedia with regards to passive aggressiveness that I can directly relate to non technical bosses managing technical professionals, especially in female dominated work environments. The strange thing is that I have also worked in both male and female dominated work groups, in similar technical capacities, and have never had any issues like this in male dominated groups, mainly because that type of behavior would be regarded as bullying, including in the ones I've worked in with female bosses.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior

 

I can understand why you don't want to go into details so I'll supply you with a few examples from my own past experience, that you might be able to relate to.

 

When I started in a projects team in a female dominated (90%) section of 50 people in a 3K+ employee organisation I had a female technical boss who had a good understanding of the technical issues at hand and we worked well together and had a good rapport due to mutual respect. That changed after a couple of months when a non technical female was rotated into my bosses position and my technical minded female boss was rotated elsewhere.

 

Initially I would just give my new boss the same executive summary type information that I gave my previous boss and reserved the technical detail for the technical people I worked with. Unfortunately she questioned everything so each small paragraph or sentence became a detailed novella with many chapters, and very quickly she was in over her head, multiple times. If she had only trusted that the information I communicated to her in good faith was correct she would not have had the breakdown.

 

After her breakdown she changed and showed assertive passive aggression that matched the bolded points from the Wki above.

 

Shortly after at my first one on one meeting alone with her she said that she and the team did not want to receive any emails or speak to me with regards to the work I was doing in the team, even my designated backup. I just continued working with everybody else in the team in the same way I always did because they were technical people who didn't have a problem, but whenever I came near her she would put up the barriers and smother any attempt at communication.

 

At my second (six months later) one on one meeting alone with her she told me that my contract would not be extended when it finished in 4 months time. I didn't think that what my boss told me was false (my contract was extended another 2 times for 1.25 years, 4 months later) so I never realised that she was bullying me until much later on. I honestly believed what she told me to the extent that 3 months later, I responded via email to the CEO's secretary with regards to a CEO request for an update on my project, with a final paragraph that I had been informed by my boss that my contract would not be renewed.

 

I didn't realise that I was being bullied for about a year because I was so busy working. Over that year I attended 2 team meetings where my boss organised for another female employee to assist me and both times, 10 months apart, the other employee was allowed to take 4 weeks of annual leave when the time came along. I was exhausted due to not being able to take any holidays but glad because everything was rolling out smoothly without any help. This was just when she revealed her hidden hand.

 

Bullying behavior by males or females only has one end randomc, it should not be allowed to survive in any responsible organisation.

 

If you have problems that are anything remotely like the above, check if your organisation has some sort of Public Interest Disclosure (PID) system in place where bullying etc can be reported by employees and investigated internally without disclosure. In some countries, state or federal legislation can require organisations of certain sizes to have these types of systems in place. An organisation usually needs some sort of a PID if it has systems whose access is incumbent on employees signing confidentiality undertakings, with dob clauses, (due to state/federal Info Privacy and/or Info Sec legislation) if they become aware of unauthorised disclosures or modifications of system information by other employees or third parties.

 

Please note that all of my comments above are related to non technical females 45+ working in technical roles. I regularly work with female inspectors/engineers doing QA on major infrastructure projects and have never been bullied in any way shape or form. I give her the QA test results and she decides whether the job continues or not based on those results so she may as well be the boss.

 

One way that bullying can be detected is through unusual rosters singling out individual employees. From personal experience, and unfortunately after the event, I can say to watch out if 1/ you are given a 2 week roster with 2 days off at either end and work 10 days straight, then have 2 consecutive 2/ 2 week rosters without more than a single day off in a row where you finish late before your day off and start early straight after your day off. This gets really interesting if you rotate between 5 different shift start times: 2am, 5am, 7am, 11am and 2pm and roll out the final 5 consecutive days 3/ by starting the first shift at 2pm, the next at 11am, the next at 7am, the next at 5am and the final shift at 2am. I was positively jet lagged by the end so I didn't notice the roster pattern described above.

 

The disturbing thing was that the boss who designed these rosters was a white haired 60 year old grandmother, in a female dominant industry, who knew exactly what she was doing.

 

Have you ever been around a women of advanced years who feels she's lost status, and takes it out on you just for having seen? There are at least four genders if you ask me.

 

To your experience, as i've been told off for, the issue is the extent to which it generalises i suppose. Gender is based on how hormones influence brain development right?

 

 

 

Besides, everyone works for someone they don't like at some point in their life.

 

I didn't say i didn't like her. Hurkle

Edited April 5, 2015 by randomc

[imatfaal]

!

Moderator Note

OK - if we don't move on to a discussion that doesn't have enormous undertones of sexism then I think we will have to lock this thread.

 

Dont respond to this moderation

[LaurieAG]

Have you ever been around a women of advanced years who feels she's lost status, and takes it out on you just for having seen? There are at least four genders if you ask me.

 

No randomc, I haven't. In the latter example I gave the industry was rife with bullying fraud and theft.

 

I'll try to dig up a link to a Phd paper I came across a couple of years ago as it may contribute to this discussion. The thesis was about the generic technical differences between corrupt organisations (CO) and organisations of corrupt individuals (OCI) operating within non corrupt organisations. While the corruption in CO's grew from the top down OCI's tended to grow from the bottom up and management indifference and/or complacency were the key things that allowed them to flourish. The two organisations referred to in the thesis were an international sporting body and the US Catholic church and the contents of reports produced after official investigations into these organisations was used extensively in the thesis.

 

I only found out later that the author had been an employee at a public organisation in another state for 20 years and that the results of an official corruption inquiry into this particular public organisation was the main driver for my states Public Interest Disclosure (PID) regime.

[randomc]

Ah right. I'm talking kebab shops and grocery markets, so i'll just fuck off over here out of the way. Cos it's not like it's us who's getting pissed off innit? It's when your feckin jobs get threatened. knobh**ds.

 

But seriously though, that sounds like some sort of industrial tribunal type jobby. Keeps self-aggrandising delusional lawyers like imatfaal happy, but culturally null. Because are YOU going to hack someones face off with an eighteen inch kebab knife? probably not, but when it comes down to it you acountanty types can be mean mutha fuckas (and who does the damage? not us)

Edited April 6, 2015 by randomc

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

That's it. You're out of here. I'm suspending you for one week, but don't be surprised if we extend that indefinitely.