Zet Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 . A Question about the Logic of the Law of Conservation of Energy with Demagnetized and Moving Magnets. There are two closed systems. In terms of energy each system is identical. In each system, there are two magnetically aligned ferromagnets. One is fixed in place, and the other one is in motion moving towards the fixed one due to their mutual attraction. In each system, there is a chemical heat pack. If the chemicals are exposed to one another thermal energy will be generated. The temperature in the vicinity of the heat pack after the chemical exposure will be greater than the Curie temperature of the ferromagnets. (And after that, the thermal energy will then dissipate throughout the rest of the system.) The chemical heat pack is placed at one location in the one system and in the other system the chemical heat pack is placed near the fixed magnet. In both systems, when the two magnets in the two sets are the same distance apart, and when the moving magnet is near the heat pack in the one system, the chemicals are exposed to one another. The temperature in the vicinity of heat pack increases to more than the Curie temperature of the ferromagnets. One magnet is each system becomes demagnetized. (The magnets are close enough to one another to be attracted to one another (even if only slightly) while far enough away from one another so that the magnetic field of the other non-demagnetized magnet is not strong enough to keep the heated magnet externally significantly magnetically aligned.) There is a of loss mutual attraction between the two magnets. The remaining amount of potential energy between them as they have gotten closer is now gone. The demagnetized magnet is immediately cut off from the mutual attraction. But the lack of mutual attraction takes some time to make its way across the distance to the still magnetized magnet. It remains attracted to the other magnet for a while longer. The means in the case where it is the moving magnet that is demagnetized the moving demagnetized magnet immediately ceases to continue to accelerate, while in the other case where it is the fixed magnet that is demagnetized the moving still magnetized magnet continues to accelerate for a little while longer. In the end, in both systems, the thermal energy will dissipate throughout the entire closed system and both magnets within it will be raised above their Curie temperatures. The two moving magnets, in the two different systems, will continue to move. In the end the two systems are identical in many respects. There is the same decrease in chemical potential energy. There is the same increase in energy in the form of the magnets’ demagnetizations. And there is an increase in thermal energy. In the one system, there is, however, more kinetic energy in the end than in the other. And since both systems started out identical energy-wise they must end up with identical total amounts of energy, according to the logic of the Law of Conservation of Energy. And so, in the end, in the case with more kinetic energy there must be less of another form of energy, and in the other case with less kinetic energy there must be more of this other form of energy. What is it? Or, is there a flaw in the logic of the “Laws of Physics” in this situation? ? --- Endnotes. 1: The demagnetized state is the higher energy state and the magnetized state is the lower energy state (but this is irrelevant to the issue presented here). 2: It is a loss in thermal energy that demagnetizes each magnet and thus raises each magnet’s energy state. 3: The only possibility I can see is, in the end, there must be less thermal energy in the system with more kinetic energy and more thermal energy in the system with less kinetic energy. This means it must take more energy to demagnetize the fixed magnet (a greater decrease in thermal energy) and where the moving magnet continues to accelerate, and less energy to demagnetize the moving magnet (a lesser decrease in thermal energy) and where the moving magnet immediately discontinues to accelerate. But if anything it seems as if the exact opposite should be true. As the moving magnet moves towards the fixed magnet the strength of the moving magnet’s field moves too. Whereas the moving magnet moves across positions where the strength of the fixed magnet is already there. And so, at the time of demagnetization of each different magnet in the two cases, when the distance between the two magnets in both sets is identical, the strength of the magnetic field from the fixed magnet on the moving magnet could be stronger than the strength of the magnetic field from the moving magnet on the fixed magnet. And it stands to reason that the stronger the external magnetic field is on the demagnetizing magnet the more energy it would take to demagnetize it. But this leads to the exact opposite conclusion needed. This leads to that it would then take more energy to demagnetize the moving magnet, which is also the case where there is less kinetic energy in the end, and so there would both be less kinetic energy and less thermal energy than in the other case. This only exacerbates the problem. 4: There is also an empirical answer, if one has the skills and resources to find it. However, regardless of what the empirical answer turns out to be, the logic must work first or no matter what the empirical answer turns up to be it will not be one where energy is conserved. 5: If the loss of mutual attraction does not take time to cross the distance between the two magnets and to the still magnetized magnet, but is rather instantaneous, then this would lead to all sorts of Special Theory of Relativity paradoxes. 6: The “demagnetized” magnet will never fully become magnetically disaligned. And so, the moving magnets will continue to accelerate after the “demagnetization” of itself or the other magnet. However the residual magnetic alignment and the remaining continued acceleration are so minuscule so as to be reasonably ignored. 7: In reality, no mutually attracted body is “fixed in place.” They both are moving towards one another. But if the “fixed in place” magnets in the two systems above are connected to a massive body such as planet Earth, then the acceleration of the “fixed in place” magnet and the associated massive body is so miniscule so as to be reasonably ignored. There is an equal increase in momentum in opposite directions between the “moving” magnet and the “fixed in place” magnet and associated massive body (p = mv), but the increase in kinetic energy of the “fixed in place” magnet and associated massive body is miniscule compared to the increase in kinetic energy of the “moving” magnet and so can be reasonably ignored (ke = ½mv2). (However, whether it is the “moving” magnetic that continues to accelerate for a time while the other demagnetized body and associated massive body does not or whether it is the “fixed in place” magnet” and associated massive body continues to accelerate for a while while the other demagnetized body does not, either way, there is also a possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Momentum.) 8: The fact that one magnet is in motion relative to the chemical heat pack and the other magnet is not is irrelevant unlike other aspects of magnetic movement, such as Lenz’ Law, where the nature of any relative motion is a factor. 9: When two bodies are in two different motions, such as the faster moving magnet in the one system versus the slower moving magnet in the other system, they are in two different frames. And the total amount of energy can vary between frames. However, the two frames in comparison here are the two “fixed in place” frames and not the frames from the perspective of the “moving” bodies at rest, and so the total amount of energies between the two systems considered are in the same frame and so must end up with the same total amounts of energy in each for the logic of the Law of Conservation of Energy to not be violated. .
hypervalent_iodine Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 ! Moderator Note One thread per topic, please.
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