God as the Universe theory.

[Moontanman]

Yes...using the term magical sky fairy is "making fun"...

 

You should get used to people making fun if you tell very many people this Belief, I was trying to get you to see why the concept of a god is silly with no evidence.

 

So you cannot see from my frame of reference, right? Of course my proof would not be proof to you...But you should have a theory of human consciousness and how it exists and you may not be able to find any proof of that answer..

May not? You want to base this on an argument from ignorance fallacy?

 

.it still begs the question, if there is no magic inside us from a sky fairy, then our consciousness is simply a factor of energy, communication and storage...

So are computers, your point please?

 

and there is no reason to believe that other systems of energy, communication and storage wouldn't have a consciousness...

That is agreeable but you are leaving out complexity and the speed of light would put a big cap on communication of something as big as the universe...

 

and it wouldnt be strange or unfounded to believe the universe had a consciousness...it would be strange and unfounded to consider it didnt have a consciousness, to me...

Here is where you run off the rails, you have no proof or even evidence other than an argument from ignorance.

 

So far you have to provide anything but your assertions as evidence this is the equivalent of making stuff up...

 

I dont think I have made anything up in reference to this God...

So far everything you have asserted is made up because not of it is supported by any evidence other than your belief, just because you think something should be one way or want it be one way or another is no reason to think it is that way,

Edited April 23, 2015 by Moontanman

[JohnSSM]

No...I dont have to get used to being made fun of since you are in a group who represents the minority of belief....you should become used to being made fun of. I think you are in denial and so do the other believers...so make fun all you want...it makes you look foolish, not me.

You dont have to explain why humans have a consciousness, all you have to do is admit that you cannot see feel and experience everything that I can see feel and experience...and since you cannot do that, you cannot disprove my proof...I do not have to prove god's existence to you and I cannot...How could i possible make you see anything different than what you see? IF you do not consider how human's have a consciousness then I cant make you consider it...maybe my point is that computers have a consciousness too...do you have any proof against that? ha

Entanglement seems to solve the speed of light issue...although we may not be able to use entanglement to communicate, that doesnt mean entanglement cannot have another universal use...

Am i making up the notion that all the energy out there is actually just information? I dont think so. Ive heard the reference of "information" too many times...so, if we defined the universe as information and matter and we defined the fields as realms where certain information is communicated, its seems not a huge leap to claim that all that information and methods of communicating are forms of a consciousness...we have information, we have communication, we have concrete evidence of the results as atoms, molecules and matter and life...but i dont have any proof of a consciousness...there are elements which make a consciousness possible...and probable, depending on the perspective...I dont think I made anything up in these statements...its just a different view of what is out there...but proof, i do not have...do i need proof just to look at proven facts in a new perspective?

Its funny...cuz i didnt want it to be this way...I was an atheist from age 8...i never believed...and it was studying physics that brought on these new beliefs and perspectives for me...my mouth never dropped open in sunday school class from hearing the truth...but when i finally made big realizations about GR and QM, i was in awe...more than awe, it was the presence of truth...I think everything we discover through science is a discovery of god...

Maybe the power of these realizations has played the "god trick" on me...it is my own humanity which has finally found the purest beauty of truth, and its so important to me, that I give it the godly power i claim it possesses...that could be whats happening...but im careful not to change anything about those truths...

Relativity is my most favorite of the truths...that each of us resides in a world that is truly different than all others...and all those relative realities exist at the same time and none of them are "wrong"...they are simply relative...being in that relative space means that we do not know the other forces which may be influencing us...

When i really get down to having discussions with atheists, they do often reveal personal reasons for not wanting to believe in god, often times, with a large amount of contempt for any possible god..."How could a god let this happen?"..."what kind of god would do that?"..."If I ever meet god I want to punch him in the throat and ask him why the hell my sister died after having her baby!"

When i run into atheists who feel that way, i think to myself, something has injured their ability to WANT to see and find god...and that was very true of my 8 year old self...

 

 

I’m sorry if my lack of skills with the written word has confused you but you seem to have entirely missed my point.

Essentially, my question is what manifest difference would it make to your life if god didn’t exist?

 

 

 

 

Can you please clarify your meaning here, because at first glance this is twaddle?

Let’s imagine were in the universe where god does exist and you were able to actually prove it (an introduction would be necessary). It wouldn’t change my moral compass or me whatever god said:

 

If god asked me to sacrifice my son, or any creature, I’d refuse whatever he threatened because I despise bullies.

 

If god asked me to worship him I’d again refuse because I prize humility above arrogance.

 

If god asked me to be humble, do no harm, be charitable to anyone in need and judge nobody I wouldn’t refuse but that’s how I try to live now.

 

Now let’s imagine a universe in which I can prove god doesn’t exist, would the positive changes in your life suddenly cease?

That would be like a child suddenly hating Christmas because they found out Father Christmas didn’t exist.

Since i first confronted feelings that there may be a god, ive just become mildly happier and that mild happiness is growing...so we can equate god with taking anti-depressants...ha

"If god asked me to sacrifice my son, or any creature, I’d refuse whatever he threatened because I despise bullies.

If god asked me to worship him I’d again refuse because I prize humility above arrogance.

If god asked me to be humble, do no harm, be charitable to anyone in need and judge nobody I wouldn’t refuse but that’s how I try to live now."

Why would god ask anything of you? It seems you're using stories from man made texts in order to understand who or what god might be...my god would never ask anything of anything...I already believe that everything in the universe is god as a whole...that means you and me....so its strange to think of god asking anything from a part of god...we are allready god's will, whatever that is...but in my perspective, what else could we be?

But you have to be able to scrub you brain free of all the man made crap...its no longer anything to consider...we know that god did not punish job in a disagreement with satan...we know there is no satan....those are definitely man made stories and beliefs...

 

Let's be honest about GR and QM though...I put faith in those things being true or proven...I have not done the math which proves them to be real...I do not understand the math which proves them to be real...I just understand the stories...my belief and faith in GR and QM is really no different than a Muslim's belief in muhammed...

[Phi for All]

my belief and faith in GR and QM is really no different than a Muslim's belief in muhammed...

 

Except for that nagging evidence that you could verify if you chose to. It exists, thousands of people who do understand it work with it, you're on a computer so you're working with it. Nothing like that exists to support the existence of god(s), whether you chose to look for it or not.

 

It's that verification capability that distinguishes science from any other type of belief. The difference between faith and trust.

[JohnSSM]

 

No, I use the term "magical sky fairy" to denote the supernatural aspect of god(s). Everything we know about so far has a perfectly rational, natural explanation. We didn't always have this knowledge though, and we used god(s) to explain what we couldn't understand.

 

As we gained this natural-world understanding through observation and experimentation, our god explanations began to get squeezed out of the gaps in our knowledge. So far, there's not a single phenomenon we know of that would require an explanation using supernatural means. The preponderance of evidence would suggest that god(s) and magic aren't needed for a concept of consciousness.

 

So yes, you made up EVERYTHING in reference to this god. Unless you have some evidence you aren't sharing.

What is the perfectly rational explanation of why anything has a "charge" at all...what do positive charge and negative charge actually denote? could any universe without charge exist? IF so, why does charge exist in this one? Why does a universe need to have all the same fields and particles and forces as this one?

 

Why is a question that physics asks all the time...

 

To me, it seems like you're taking the traits of this universe and seeing them as fundamental needs of other universe models...you seem to normalize this universe as the only possible universe...or the only possible outcome for any universe...as if it couldn't exist any differently...I dont have proof that it could exist any differently, but if it could, would it's fields and particles and forces need to absolutely mirror the ones in this universe? IF not, is randomness the only possible force at play?

 

Ill just ask a direct question about our universe...why does it take three quarks to create a hadron? Could it be 5 or 7 in some other universal formation? OR does it basically come down to being 3 because we need a minimum of 3 to explain the probabilities of quark behaviors?...Its not a smart ass question and I hope its not a stupid question...maybe i still dont see many of the reasons for which things have the traits and behaviors that they do...

 

I imagine a universe before it had any rules...its just unrestrained and undefined energy...there is no charge or spin or mass because there are no fields and no particles...just energy with no other definitions...now turn on the rules...and the energy takes on traits and characteristics of this universe because fields are formed and perturbations occur and here we go...and then does anything happen from chance? it seems to me, once we have those fields and particles that it all behaves as the forces of that field dictate...

 

Im definitely still sorting through this perspective...and info insights and info are appreciated...but hearing that these is no reason to pursue these answers doesnt seem legitimate...

 

And proof is not what it appears to be...when one witness in a trial offers their bit of proof, it often is not enough to prove the entire case...that doesn't make what they are offering untrue or made up...and if everybody could have been at their place in time and place to have witnessed what they have witnessed, they wouldnt need to rely on the oath of one person, but they have to...it is not easy to find truths without math...but how can you use math to solve the question of who is responsible for killing someone? or who is responsible for creating the universe...if there is a natural theory that holds more credibility than mine, I am down to hear it..

 

 

 

Except for that nagging evidence that you could verify if you chose to. It exists, thousands of people who do understand it work with it, you're on a computer so you're working with it. Nothing like that exists to support the existence of god(s), whether you chose to look for it or not.

 

It's that verification capability that distinguishes science from any other type of belief. The difference between faith and trust.

Im not sure that I could...are you saying that everyone could be made to understand the math behind GR and QM? NO one would fail?

 

Im not disputing that it isnt real...im disputing that they are truths that i may never understand the reasons behind...

 

Yes...if you look to my last example, when we search for truths and cannot use math to uncover them, we do end up having to trust other people...and it often does not work out...there is still a truth for which they are searching...even without a totally provable answer...

 

Who is the zodiac killer? no one has proof...but the zodiac killer is a person who did exist...there is an absolute truth there...with no proof...

I suppose all that Im saying, under the umbrella that I do not have proof to offer the masses, is that because our universe exists, and because it has doctrines that do not seem to be natural to the idea of energy or information, but seem to be guides for how they behave, which is to define them, seems to indicate that they were defined...what power is making those definitions adhere with totality? I detect a god consciousness there...i cannot claim to know anything about it other than definitions cannot exist without a power to define...if the definitions exist, then the power behind them exists...I call that power god, because there is nothing of greater influence over the universe and how that energy has interacted, communicated and evolved...I do suppose it could just be another influence which i cannot see and dont understand and in that, is no different than fire...

 

But in my perspective, those cavemen were right...god is responsible for fire...

[Moontanman]

No...I dont have to get used to being made fun of since you are in a group who represents the minority of belief....you should become used to being made fun of. I think you are in denial and so do the other believers...so make fun all you want...it makes you look foolish, not me.

argumentum ad populum? Who is in the minority or the majority has no bearing on who is correct...

 

You dont have to explain why humans have a consciousness, all you have to do is admit that you cannot see feel and experience everything that I can see feel and experience...and since you cannot do that, you cannot disprove my proof...

It's not up to me to prove you wrong, you are making an assertion, the burden of proof lies solely with you!

 

I do not have to prove god's existence to you and I cannot...

Then you should take back your assertions and admit you have no basis in reality for your assertions.

 

How could i possible make you see anything different than what you see?

Again the burden of proof lies with you not me...

 

IF you do not consider how human's have a consciousness then I cant make you consider it...

Again an argument from ignorance

 

maybe my point is that computers have a consciousness too...do you have any proof against that? ha

Again the burden of proof lies with you my only assertion is that i don't know

 

Entanglement seems to solve the speed of light issue...although we may not be able to use entanglement to communicate, that doesnt mean entanglement cannot have another universal use...

Again an argument from ignorance..

 

Am i making up the notion that all the energy out there is actually just information? I dont think so. Ive heard the reference of "information" too many times...

Again the burden of proof lies with you!

 

so, if we defined the universe as information and matter and we defined the fields as realms where certain information is communicated, its seems not a huge leap to claim that all that information and methods of communicating are forms of a consciousness...

You can define a goat as a duck but it will not make the goat a duck...

 

we have information, we have communication, we have concrete evidence of the results as atoms, molecules and matter and life...but i dont have any proof of a consciousness...

Argument from ignorance or burden of proof, pick one...

 

there are elements which make a consciousness possible...and probable, depending on the perspective...

What are they? Do you have any evidence of them doing what you say?

 

I dont think I made anything up in these statements...

unless you provide evidence then yes you did make stuff up!

 

its just a different view of what is out there...but proof, i do not have...do i need proof just to look at proven facts in a new perspective?

Again, changing the definition of something doesn't make you correct.

 

Its funny...cuz i didnt want it to be this way...I was an atheist from age 8...i never believed...and it was studying physics that brought on these new beliefs and perspectives for me...my mouth never dropped open in sunday school class from hearing the truth...but when i finally made big realizations about GR and QM, i was in awe...more than awe, it was the presence of truth...I think everything we discover through science is a discovery of god...

Just your opinion, everyone has an opinion, you are welcome to yours but you cannot have your own facts!

 

Maybe the power of these realizations has played the "god trick" on me...it is my own humanity which has finally found the purest beauty of truth, and its so important to me, that I give it the godly power i claim it possesses...that could be whats happening...but im careful not to change anything about those truths...

You change those truths every time you bend them to your own opinion...

 

Relativity is my most favorite of the truths...that each of us resides in a world that is truly different than all others...and all those relative realities exist at the same time and none of them are "wrong"...they are simply relative...being in that relative space means that we do not know the other forces which may be influencing us...

Again you are welcome to your own opinion but you cannot have your own facts.

 

When i really get down to having discussions with atheists, they do often reveal personal reasons for not wanting to believe in god, often times, with a large amount of contempt for any possible god..."How could a god let this happen?"..."what kind of god would do that?"..."If I ever meet god I want to punch him in the throat and ask him why the hell my sister died after having her baby!"

Sad and you have my condolences but meaningless in this conversation...

 

When i run into atheists who feel that way, i think to myself, something has injured their ability to WANT to see and find god...and that was very true of my 8 year old self...

You have no idea why I do not believe in god but more to the point you do not know my inner thoughts at all. My reason have to do with burden of proof, something no religion has.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Since i first confronted feelings that there may be a god, ive just become mildly happier and that mild happiness is growing...so we can equate god with taking anti-depressants...ha

Meaningless drivel in this conversation

 

"If god asked me to sacrifice my son, or any creature, I’d refuse whatever he threatened because I despise bullies.

If god asked me to worship him I’d again refuse because I prize humility above arrogance.

If god asked me to be humble, do no harm, be charitable to anyone in need and judge nobody I wouldn’t refuse but that’s how I try to live now."

 

Why would god ask anything of you? It seems you're using stories from man made texts in order to understand who or what god might be...my god would never ask anything of anything...I already believe that everything in the universe is god as a whole...that means you and me....so its strange to think of god asking anything from a part of god...we are allready god's will, whatever that is...but in my perspective, what else could we be?

More meaningless drivel and a large dollop of proselytizing...

 

But you have to be able to scrub you brain free of all the man made crap...its no longer anything to consider...we know that god did not punish job in a disagreement with satan...we know there is no satan....those are definitely man made stories and beliefs...

meaningless word salad

 

 

 

 

Let's be honest about GR and QM though...I put faith in those things being true or proven...I have not done the math which proves them to be real...I do not understand the math which proves them to be real...I just understand the stories...my belief and faith in GR and QM is really no different than a Muslim's belief in muhammed...

Faith has no place without evidence to support it and yes there is a difference, GR and QM has real world evidence and application, belief gods does not...

Edited April 23, 2015 by Moontanman

[Phi for All]

But in my perspective, those cavemen were right...god is responsible for fire...

 

OK, thanks for clarifying that.

[JohnSSM]

argumentum ad populum? Who is in the minority or the majority has no bearing on who is correct...

 

 

It's not up to me to prove you wrong, you are making an assertion, the burden of proof lies solely with you!

 

 

Then you should take back your assertions and admit you have no basis in reality for your assertions.

 

 

Again the burden of proof lies with you not me...

 

 

Again an argument from ignorance

 

 

Again the burden of proof lies with you my only assertion is that i don't know

 

 

Again an argument from ignorance..

 

 

Again the burden of proof lies with you!

 

 

You can define a goat as a duck but it will not make the goat a duck...

 

 

Argument from ignorance or burden of proof, pick one...

 

 

What are they? Do you have any evidence of them doing what you say?

 

 

unless you provide evidence then yes you did make stuff up!

 

 

Again, changing the definition of something doesn't make you correct.

 

 

Just your opinion, everyone has an opinion, you are welcome to yours but you cannot have your own facts!

 

 

You change those truths every time you bend them to your own opinion...

 

 

Again you are welcome to your own opinion but you cannot have your own facts.

 

 

Sad and you have my condolences but meaningless in this conversation...

 

 

You have no idea why I do not believe in god but more to the point you do not know my inner thoughts at all. My reason have to do with burden of proof, something no religion has.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Meaningless drivel in this conversation

 

 

More meaningless drivel and a large dollop of proselytizing...

 

 

meaningless word salad

 

 

 

 

 

Faith has no place without evidence to support it and yes there is a difference, GR and QM has real world evidence and application, belief gods does not...

We do get to have our own facts...thats what relativity is all about...

 

You are on a planet far away and an asteroid is about to smash into your planet...by definition, the asteroid is harmful to your existence and not at all harmful to mine...is the trajectory of the asteroid harmful? To you it is, to me it isnt and we are both correct...

 

Relativity makes clocks run at different speeds, it changes the colors we see, it changes the factors of the forces that each of us experience...i dont think thats drivel or word salad...

 

 

Also moontanman....Can you go ahead and put the theory or GR together without the help of einstein, maxwell and others? Id love to see your original thoughts before you learned their bibles...

Do you know how many people experiences gravity everyday and never thought about it? Who really did before Newton? Would you have been like newton?

 

Without their info you would be a caveman...

 

OK, thanks for clarifying that.

What would you expect me to say when I believe all the forces are a factor of god?

[Phi for All]

We do get to have our own facts...thats what relativity is all about...

 

You are on a planet far away and an asteroid is about to smash into your planet...by definition, the asteroid is harmful to your existence and not at all harmful to mine...is the trajectory of the asteroid harmful? To you it is, to me it isnt and we are both correct...

 

Relativity makes clocks run at different speeds, it changes the colors we see, it changes the factors of the forces that each of us experience...i dont think thats drivel or word salad...

 

 

 

Um, no. Relativity doesn't mean facts are different for each person. In fact, the principle of relativity says that the equations defining the laws of physics that govern the universe have the same form in ALL reference frames. It doesn't mean your world is different than mine, it means we need to distinguish between different frames of reference when describing the universe.

 

If you based your beliefs on this bit of misunderstanding, you might want to study Relativity a bit deeper.

[JohnSSM]

 

Um, no. Relativity doesn't mean facts are different for each person. In fact, the principle of relativity says that the equations defining the laws of physics that govern the universe have the same form in ALL reference frames. It doesn't mean your world is different than mine, it means we need to distinguish between different frames of reference when describing the universe.

 

If you based your beliefs on this bit of misunderstanding, you might want to study Relativity a bit deeper.

I was truly just coming to comment about this very notion...You are very right in your perspective about relativity and GR...that GR is a tool for creating the absolute frame of reference...but isnt it true that no realtively defined point could actually experience that reality other than just know it through the equations of GR? So the experiments and things we observe from our local views do not always match the results of GR, do they? It is the tool for letting us know that our observations arent truly correct and we must observer them though the framework of GR to truly know what is happening...

 

If two people in rocket ships had no idea about the effects of GR and they were watching each others clock on monitors as one went really fast or through a high energy gravity field...wouldnt each observer see that the other's time does not seem to be running correctly and think someone was "wrong" in the other spaceship?

Ill get a smackdown for this for sure...

 

So one guy comes in and says...that effect is what god had to do to each of our points of reference so that we and they could make their own sense of what was happening from the whole...

So one guy goes..."God didnt make that happen, it just happened..."

 

and the other..."why dont you just look at your own clock?"

Edited April 24, 2015 by JohnSSM

[Phi for All]

I was truly just coming to comment about this very notion...You are very right in your perspective about relativity and GR...that GR is a tool for creating the absolute frame of reference...but isnt it true that no realtively defined point could actually experience that reality other than just know it through the equations of GR?

 

My perspective is NOT that GR is a tool for creating the absolute frame of reference, because that's wrong. There is no absolute reference frame. GR tells us that all frames are relative.

 

As for the rest, it makes no sense. Perhaps because you start from a flawed premise. But I also realize that you didn't arrive at this belief rationally, so it will do no good to use rational arguments to show you its flaws. It won't make any difference with this type of belief. In fact, confirmation bias is so strong with this kind of belief, the more actual evidence I can show for my arguments, the more it will convince you you're right.

 

I appreciate the discussion, and wish you well with the rest of it, but it's depressing to think you believe god created fire. And insulting, in a way. I'll leave you to it.

[JohnSSM]

 

My perspective is NOT that GR is a tool for creating the absolute frame of reference, because that's wrong. There is no absolute reference frame. GR tells us that all frames are relative.

 

As for the rest, it makes no sense. Perhaps because you start from a flawed premise. But I also realize that you didn't arrive at this belief rationally, so it will do no good to use rational arguments to show you its flaws. It won't make any difference with this type of belief. In fact, confirmation bias is so strong with this kind of belief, the more actual evidence I can show for my arguments, the more it will convince you you're right.

 

I appreciate the discussion, and wish you well with the rest of it, but it's depressing to think you believe god created fire. And insulting, in a way. I'll leave you to it.

No...you have offered the insults...the atheists always do...proof of their anger with faith or belief, possibly because it failed them...but i don't have any such feelings anymore...something to do with the understanding that comes with my beliefs and the lack of understanding that comes with yours...the understanding of people...

Relativity does mean facts are different for different people...which was my original point...

 

The guy in the elevator who's feeling the effects of acceleration does not know whether the elevator is falling do to gravity or from motors pushing the elevator down...who has that proof? He does not have any

All I have to do is put people on either side of a 3 dimensional sculpture of an S...i ask them both to draw what they see...one comes up with an S and the other comes up with a backwards S...who got it wrong? neither...

We established that not everyone can learn every bit of science due to personal limits on the ability to comprehend and we also established that MOST physicists would know nothing about general relativity without the teachings of someone else....sounds like a faith to me...

[dimreepr]

I’m with phi on this; it seems there is no rational argument to which you’ll concede.

 

This:

 

“something to do with the understanding that comes with my beliefs and the lack of understanding that comes with yours”

 

Confirms that observation.

[Moontanman]

We do get to have our own facts...thats what relativity is all about...

Again, not you do not get your own facts...

 

You are on a planet far away and an asteroid is about to smash into your planet...by definition, the asteroid is harmful to your existence and not at all harmful to mine...is the trajectory of the asteroid harmful? To you it is, to me it isnt and we are both correct...

And this has something to do with what? The same could be said for a bullet entering the window with both of us in the same room, meaningless drivel...

 

Relativity makes clocks run at different speeds, it changes the colors we see, it changes the factors of the forces that each of us experience...i dont think thats drivel or word salad...

I don't think you have the slightest understanding of relativity...

 

Also moontanman....Can you go ahead and put the theory or GR together without the help of einstein, maxwell and others? Id love to see your original thoughts before you learned their bibles...

they had their own bibles? Interesting but still a nonsequitur..

 

Do you know how many people experiences gravity everyday and never thought about it? Who really did before Newton? Would you have been like newton?

This really makes no sense, I'd like to try and give you as much credit as possible. Can you elaborate? Are you suggesting I am incapable of original thought?

 

Without their info you would be a caveman...

No, they stood on the shoulders of giants, your analogy makes no sense..

 

What would you expect me to say when I believe all the forces are a factor of god?

 

I would say you can believe invisible unicorn farts are the forces of the universe, you would still be just as far as you are now into a deep lack of burden of proof...

I'll give another chance, read this and see if you understand how wrong you are...

 

The guy in the elevator who's feeling the effects of acceleration does not know whether the elevator is falling do to gravity or from motors pushing the elevator down...who has that proof? He does not have any

 

Ok, I read it wrong, sorry for the inference...

Edited April 24, 2015 by Moontanman

[JohnSSM]

I’m with phi on this; it seems there is no rational argument to which you’ll concede.

 

This:

 

“something to do with the understanding that comes with my beliefs and the lack of understanding that comes with yours”

 

Confirms that observation.

But you all refuse to concede to the very effects of relativity...You do not see the universe as I do...and that is simply an effect of relativity...and you all cant admit it!

 

“something to do with the understanding that comes with my beliefs and the lack of understanding that comes with yours”

 

No...that statement is why atheists get angry and call people names and theists often avoid it....but turn it around all you want

Again, not you do not get your own facts...

 

And this has something to do with what? The same could be said for a bullet entering the window with both of us in the same room, meaningless drivel...

 

I don't think you have the slightest understanding of relativity...

 

they had their own bibles? Interesting but still a nonsequitur..

 

This really makes no sense, I'd like to try and give you as much credit as possible. Can you elaborate? Are you suggesting I am incapable of original thought?

 

No, they stood on the shoulders of giants, your analogy makes no sense..

 

 

I would say you can believe invisible unicorn farts are the forces of the universe, you would still be just as far as you are now into a deep lack of burden of proof...

I'll give another chance, read this and see if you understand how wrong you are...

 

 

Ok, I read it wrong, sorry for the inference...

Since you haven't addressed one point that I have made why we DO get to have our own facts and that fact is undeniable, You're just stating your opinion without proof...which is something atheists are really against...I have identified a few examples of how people do have their own facts and you simply ignore them...

 

It wasnt meaningless drivel...it could be to you, but to me, it meant a lot...some folks can see one asteroid as deadly and horrible and others see it as harmless...and they are both correct...

 

Relativity doesnt have anything to do with clock speeds while travelling or in a gravitational field? of course it does...

 

Im saying that without einstien, maxwell and lorenz, you would have no idea about how gravity actually works...Could you have come up with it on your own? I sincerely doubt it...and if you havent done ALL the math yourself, to prove all these things to yourself, then you are just another religious believer...you dont have proof, you just believe people who say they do...so your belief in relativity is just as unfounded as someone else's belief in Jesus as lord...If you have personally done all the math and logic to figure out relativity and QM, then you do have personal proof...if you havent, then you dont...You have original thoughts perhaps...but that doesnt mean you could have taken the place of Newton...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fschmidt]

This discussion is almost 400 years old. Spinoza introduced pantheism in the 1600s. Pantheism doesn't work because God must be a moral force to have any meaning, and to be a moral force, God must be cause and not effect. In other words, God can neither do nothing nor be everything.

My view is simply that God is the forces of nature, meaning things like gravity, evolution, and other forces not discovered. This makes God pure cause.

[Ricky12]

For me God links into a good energy.A good energy will always be stronger than a negative and can be seen in nature as well.Eg the essence of nature is to flourish and likewise with humans we see it in love.Love is a strong force of this energy concept for instance and on anther point if a child fails to receive love in its first year it doesn't flourish and is stagnated through the rest of his/her life.

[3blake7]

I personally consider it redefining the word God, to the closest real thing. God is science, God has no consciousness, God is not aware, God does not judge, God is neither good nor evil, God is everything. The most accurate and precise language to describe God is mathematics. I'm okay with this, but most people will consider you and me Atheists, just be okay with that, lol

[Ricky12]

I have a open mind though and don't necessarily rule out a higher form of something else that our consciousness is not aware of.Eg the big bang what kick started it all of.I like to believe there is supreme cosmic intelligence/force/energy that originated the big bang but then reality brings be down to earth. I look at children and babies who have done nothing wrong and are murdered or die a horrible death through illness and suffer greatly in their short existence which makes me think maybe it is all chance. Having said that I still do believe in the energy thing though. A positive energy will always override the negative of that I am convinced.