New Theory

[Electronic_engine]

First introducing the concept of

Generating force from nothing

If we have two opposite equal forces that affects an object so that the forces does not make displacement , i.e. No work is done then the forces can increase continuously without limit and without any external force just by itself and from nothing!! This is the concept of generating force from nothing.

Proof:

This experiment shows that the above concept is true, it uses the idea of canceling one force of the two mutual attraction forces between magnets :

 

1, 2 , 3 ,4 are identical magnets, 5 is an ideal spring , that conserve energy without loss ,the distance between magnets 1 and 2 equals distance between magnets 3 and 4 , magnets 1 and 3 are connected together using brown bar, the brown bar goes inside magnet 2 without friction.

So as a result of this the two magnets 1 and 3 can move toward magnet 4 without force , if we consider there is not friction forces , because the repel force between magnet 1 and 2 cancel the attraction force between magnet 3 and 4 since the four magnets are identical and the distances are equal .

But!! What about magnet 4 its attraction force increases AND ALSO DECREASES while we move the two magnets 1 and 2 from left to right, there should be change in force , while we do not exert external force to the system , at least theoretically.

Conclusion:

The force exerted by magnet 4 on the lower grey surface and the upper grey surface increases without exerting another external force. also can be decreased without external forces ,This a proof of the above concept of generating force from nothing.

Before I present my new theory I would like to hear opinions about this concept.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Electronic_engine

[studiot]

You have missed out some parts of the system in your analysis.

 

ie you have omitted some of the forces acting.

 

1) You say the magnets 1, and 3 are rigidly fixed on the bar, whilst the bar slides through magnet2 without friction.

 

OK but unless you apply a restraining force the bar will slide so that it is centralised in M2 positioning M1 and M3 equidistant from M2.

 

If this restraining force is provided by M4 then a new equilibrium will be established somewhat as you have drawn it.

 

2)

 

 

while we move the two magnets

 

If you apply a force displacing the system from this equilibrium position (and you will have to) your force will do work against the opposing magnetic forces.

 

3) I was recently at the Science Centre exhibition in Dundee where they have several magnetic displays set up.

One had two bar magnets like yours mounted on pegs near each other so they could spin freely.

Aligning them as M1 and M2 causes one to spin rapidly, the spin being transfered back and fore between the two magnets until they lock in equilibrium with opposing faces in opposition.

 

The point of this was to note that each magnet will be subject to moments on its mounting, which you also have not accounted for in your list of forces acting.

[Electronic_engine]

 

 

OK but unless you apply a restraining force the bar will slide so that it is centralised in M2 positioning M1 and M3 equidistant from M2.

 

I think you mean something else, anyway that will not happen if the distance between magnet 2 and magnet 3 is far , i.e. the brown bar is very long.

 

 

The point of this was to note that each magnet will be subject to moments on its mounting, which you also have not accounted for in your list of forces acting.

right!! thanks , I have just edited the picture so that there will not be moment.

 

 

If you apply a force displacing the system from this equilibrium position (and you will have to) your force will do work against the opposing magnetic forces.

 

 

no force required, if there is an ideal spring , that conserves force without loss ,connected to the brown bar (I have put it by editing the picture )the bar will move from left to right by itself changing force exerted by M4 on both lower and upper grey surfaces.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Electronic_engine

[Greg H.]

Technically, aren't you generating force from magnetism as opposed to generating it from nothing?

[Electronic_engine]

Technically, aren't you generating force from magnetism as opposed to generating it from nothing?

generating force from nothing means that there are forces opposite to each other and equal, they increase without bound WITHOUT EXTERNAL EFFECT, the effect is a physical factor like energy or force, only the device is magnetic and there is not physics factor behind the increment in the magnetic force, that means there may be forces increasing AND DECREASING by themselves without an external physical factor.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Electronic_engine

[Strange]

Surely you will have to apply a force to move the magnets as they are attracted to magnet 4?

 

I don't see any "new" force here. Just you moving magnets around.

But on the other hand ...

 

5 is an ideal spring

...

if we consider there is not friction forces

 

... if you invoke magic, I suppose you can do anything.

[studiot]

 

I think you mean something else, anyway that will not happen if the distance between magnet 2 and magnet 3 is far , i.e. the brown bar is very long.

 

 

No I meant exactly what I said in (1).

 

 

right!! thanks , I have just edited the picture so that there will not be moment.

 

It is not possible to avoid this moment.

 

 

no force required, if there is an ideal spring , that conserves force without loss ,connected to the brown bar (I have put it by editing the picture )the bar will move from left to right by itself changing force exerted by M4 on both lower and upper grey surfaces

 

Try to understand my points rather than just contradict them.

 

You cannot move a system from its mechanical equilibriium position to a position of disequilibrium without applying a force.

[Electronic_engine]

 

 

I don't see any "new" force here. Just you moving magnets around.

 

the new force is the attraction of magnet 4 to magnet 3, it affects the grey surfaces and has a normal force , the force has been canceled is the attraction of magnet 3 to magnet 4 it has been canceled by another force which is the force of repel between magnet 1 and 2 .

 

 

 

You cannot move a system from its mechanical equilibriium position to a position of disequilibrium without applying a force.

the system will not change from being in equilibrium . that why no force will be exerted . refer to my exact above post.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Electronic_engine

[studiot]

 

the system will not change from being in equilibrium

 

Why not?

[Strange]

the new force is the attraction of magnet 4 to magnet 3, it affects the grey surfaces and has a normal force , the force has been canceled is the attraction of magnet 3 to magnet 4 it has been canceled by another force which is the force of repel between magnet 1 and 2 .

 

That doesn't make sense. If you are cancelling the force between 3 and 4, how can there be a "new" force between 3 and 4?

 

Also, why would the force on the grey surface change? (I assume that is supposed to be some sort of metallic surface? All you are doing is changing the position of one of the magnets underneath it.

 

the system will not change from being in equilibrium . that why no force will be exerted . refer to my exact above post.

 

Therefore, you need to exert a force to make it move (f = ma).

[studiot]

 

Strange

Also, why would the force on the grey surface change? (I assume that is supposed to be some sort of metallic surface? All you are doing is changing the position of one of the magnets underneath it.

 

 

Funny I assumed exactly the opposite as a metal surface would greatly complicate issues and the system could never be in equilibrium.

 

Edited May 18, 2015 by studiot

[Electronic_engine]

 

That doesn't make sense. If you are cancelling the force between 3 and 4, how can there be a "new" force between 3 and 4?

 

 

what ?! the magnetic force is mutual if one cancels that does not mean the other cancels.

 

 

Therefore, you need to exert a force to make it move (f = ma).

exactly , I first exert force and the ideal spring take the role of moving the bar from left to right continuously.

[Strange]

what ?! the magnetic force is mutual if one cancels that does not mean the other cancels.

 

Errr ....

 

I don't think we are in the world of physics any more. As I say, if you want to invoke magic ...

[Electronic_engine]

 

Errr ....

 

I don't think we are in the world of physics any more. As I say, if you want to invoke magic ...

it will not be canceled really by disappearing!!! however by another repel force between 1 and 2 . and it will be canceled continuously while the bar move from left to right and the bar is fixed to an ideal spring and exerting a starter force will keep the ideal system moving .

Edited May 18, 2015 by Electronic_engine

[Klaynos]

While it might oscillate for a while (depending on the specifics) it will eventually stop in the lowest energy state. Ideal springs and frictionless surfaces don't exist, there's always losses.

[Strange]

what ?! the magnetic force is mutual if one cancels that does not mean the other cancels.

 

So if we replace 3 with a non-magnetized metal bar and get rid of 1 and 2, then you are in the same position. But you will still have the same force between 3 and 4 as between 4 and 3.

 

exactly , I first exert force and the ideal spring take the role of moving the bar from left to right continuously.

 

So the magnets don't do anything. You could get rid of all of them. All you need is a perfect spring, zero friction and weight. Totally pointless.

[Electronic_engine]

 

So if we replace 3 with a non-magnetized metal bar and get rid of 1 and 2, then you are in the same position. But you will still have the same force between 3 and 4 as between 4 and 3.

 

 

do not replace anything.

 

 

So the magnets don't do anything. You could get rid of all of them. All you need is a perfect spring, zero friction and weight. Totally pointless.

you do not understand. refer to the posts again to understand the purpose of this device.

[Strange]

do not replace anything.

 

I said "if". The point was to show that claiming you can have a force in one direction (because you cancel out the magnet's force) is nonsense. The force between a piece of iron and the magnet is the same as the force between the magnet and the piece of iron.

 

you do not understand. refer to the posts again to understand the purpose of this device.

 

 

I don't see what value the magnets add. You are cancelling the force due to the magnets and relying on the spring to keep the system oscillating, temporarily.

 

Funny I assumed exactly the opposite as a metal surface would greatly complicate issues and the system could never be in equilibrium.

 

Then I don't see how the magnet is supposed to exert a force on it ... ?

[Electronic_engine]

While it might oscillate for a while (depending on the specifics) it will eventually stop in the lowest energy state. Ideal springs and frictionless surfaces don't exist, there's always losses.

there is not a need for the device to move forever ( I am confused are we talking about a perpetual motion device ?) what if the device worked for 8 cycles by itself , there will be change in M4 force from zero to a number to zero again 8 times , notice also the force exerted does depend on the masses so it can be controlled and the friction can be controlled , while magnet 4 does not know about what is going on on the left side, the force starter first and M4 change its force continuously until the device stops,so this is not like engineering systems that convert little force to huge one keeping the work done constant, these engineering systems ARE CONNECTED TO EACH OTHER, and the force input depends on the output force by some relation. if the force input increases the force output increases as well , while this does not happen to above device , theoretically without confusion , we cancel one magnetic force and move the magnet with constant speed to change the other magnet force .

Edited May 18, 2015 by Electronic_engine

[studiot]

 

Strange

Then I don't see how the magnet is supposed to exert a force on it ... ?

 

If a single force is exerted on the grey material then it must move in response to that force and the OP (who has not responded to my legitimate queries except by changing post#1) has developed a perpetual motion machine of the first kind.

 

It is surely important that the magnet system does not exert a force on the grey material?

[Strange]

I am confused are we talking about a perpetual motion device ?

 

You seem to be ("force from nothing").

 

while magnet 4 does not know about what is going on on the left side

 

Of course it does: there is a magnet moving backwards and forwards, exerting a force on it.

It is surely important that the magnet system does not exert a force on the grey material?

And yet:

The force exerted by magnet 4 on the lower grey surface and the upper grey surface increases without exerting another external force.

[Electronic_engine]

yes force from nothing and not energy from nothing perpetual motion devices use the concept of creating energy from nothing, this force increases by itself , without progressing displacement . there is not work done

this force increases by itself because even if I exert force and let go the force will CHANGE continuously without any other external force from zero to higher numbers and to zero again , I wanted to prove that if we have two opposite equal forces that exert on an object without progressing displacement they can CHANGE BY THEMSELVES to increase without bound .

Edited May 18, 2015 by Electronic_engine

[studiot]

 

I wanted to prove that if we have two opposite equal forces that exert on an object without progressing displacement they can CHANGE BY THEMSELVES to increase without bound .

 

But that has never been in doubt, except perhaps the without bound bit since they will either eventually render the object asunder or crush it. Also it depends what you mean by 'by themselves'

 

The Magdeburg Hemispheres are perhaps to most famous example of this.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdeburg_hemispheres

Edited May 18, 2015 by studiot

[Strange]

yes force from nothing and not energy from nothing

 

If you could create force from nothing, you could use that force to generate energy. Which is why you are obviously wrong.

 

this force increases by itself because even if I exert force and let go the force will CHANGE continuously without any other external force from zero to higher numbers and to zero again , I wanted to prove that if we have two opposite equal forces that exert on an object without progressing displacement they can CHANGE BY THEMSELVES to increase without bound

 

It doesn't increase without bound. It is just (decaying) simple harmonic motion as with any spring or pendulum. Your magic magnets don't make any difference.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Strange

[Klaynos]

The forces are all magnetic. You're just building an inefficient magnetic oscillator.