A New Look at Powered Flight

[TopHatProductions115]

This topic was started two years ago, on a different forum website. The rules there were restrictive, to say the least. Please note that while there are responses to this question on the original website, this is a sort of 'starting anew'. The older responses are NOT considered null and void. They are simply being set aside as a snapshot of how responders would reply two years ago, before recent theory and concepts arose. With this in mind, please avoid repeating any of those responses here. They have already been noted and apreciated. Here it goes...

Two years ago:

"As a tenth grader with electronics on the mind, ionocraft is probably one of the most interesting topics I have run across(besides the Casimir effect; that, I believe, is quantum physics). But, what I am truly interested in is whether or not it is possible, with the use of technologies such as microchannel plates or electron multipliers, to produce a viable ionocraft that could actually have a practicle use. Do you think this is possible? Give your opinion(of course, with some reasoning)."

Change in concept:

"It appears as though the ion thruster maybe an answer so far. Would it be possible to use the Casimir Effect as an effective way to power the ion thruster?"

Response (by another member):

"Here’s a patent application: “Method and Device to Generate a Transverse Casimir Force for Propulsion, Guidance and Maneuvering of a Space Vehicle”

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20080296437"

Initial Attempt at Design:

"I think I may have produced a plausible idea (still in development); the use of electrical induction to wirelessly transmit electricity outside of a negatively charged container. The process would require the use of magnetism, but could possibly remove the need for plasma. Also could take down the weight of the overall design, by using magnetic fields instead of wires. An ionocraft ring (the wire ionizing the air) could be used to give the "container" a net negative charge, and would repel against the electricity being inducted outside of the container, if the magnetic field was to somehow have a negative charge. Electron multipliers would be used to increase the number of electrons flowing through the system, which would increase the repelling between the two negative entities (the container, and the electrons outside the container). But, I'm not sure about whether the electrons can be moved outside of the container with induction alone..."

Further Clarification:

"The way that I worded it is proof of the fact that I am still in high school, so I will try to be as clear as possible (the design mentioned is still a W.I.P.- work in progress).

1a) The varying magnetic field (will most likely use alternating current power supply) mentioned above is caused by an internal electromagnet (within the "negatively- charged container")

1b) With a high enough voltage, almost anything can be used as an electrical conductor. A result of electricity flowing through most conductors is magnetism. I thought it could be utilized (in addition to the alternating electromagnet) to not only induce a negative charge on the area behind the "negatively-charged container", but also to partially control the flow of the anions. The "negatively-charged container" would be repelled away from the area behind it, producing force and thrust. Even though the negative entities would repel, the force produced (due to lack of control over the release of anions produced) would be limited, and inefficient.

1c) The electricity will most likely be an external, high-voltage AC current power source. It is easier for me to design objects that use AC than DC power sources, due to the fact that I understand the basic properties of AC current.

By-the-way, the "negatively-charged container" refers to the body/hull of the object in motion. In this case, I am trying to make it fly (which could turn out being very unlikely, due to the energy required by my design)."

Further Clarification (cont.):

"Also, according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionocraft#Construction, "A simple ionocraft derivative, also known as a lifter, can be easily constructed by anyone with a minimal amount of technical knowledge. The model in its simplest form has the shape of an equilateral triangle with sides generally between 10 and 30 cm. They consist of three parts, the corona wire (or emitting wire), the air gap (or dielectric fluid), and the foil skirt (collector). The electrical polarities of the emitting and collecting electrodes can be reversed. All of this is usually supported by a lightweight balsawood or other electrically isolating frame so that the corona wire is supported at a fixed distance above the foil skirt, generally at 1 mm per kilovolt. The corona wire and foil should be as close as possible to achieve a saturated corona current condition which results in the highest production of thrust. However the corona wire should not be too close to the foil skirt as it will tend to arc in a spectacular show of tiny lightning bolts which has a twofold effect:

It degrades the thrust as it is shorting the device and there is current flow through the arc instead of the ions that do the lifting

It can destroy the power supply or burn the balsa structure of the Lifter."

The parts I meant to refer to when I said "Ionocraft ring (the wire ionizing the air)" were the emitting wire and the collector."

Last piece of advice given:

"Thank you for posting the link to the wiki article about ionocraft. Had you posted that earlier it would have simplified member’s responses. And thank you for your detailed explanations.

Unfortunately, our PF rules don’t allow members to participate in dangerous projects, and, according to the Wiki article:

“Ionocraft require many safety precautions due to the high voltage required for their operation, and also the risk of premature death from heart or lung disease due to the inhalation of their ionised air product, ozone.”

“The Biefeld–Brown effect is an electrical effect that produces an ionic wind that transfers its momentum to surrounding neutral particles.” One suggestion: remain careful to separate “mysterious fields that interacted with the Earth's gravitational pull.[4] and “Certain fringe researchers...” from real science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biefeld–Brown_effect

Electrohydrodynamics (EHD), which underlies these “ionocraft” and “lifter” projects, is an important branch of physics with plenty of opportunity for new applications and innovations. I sincerely hope you continue your studies and experiments in this area. Please be sure to check up on any wild claims; verify them with your science teacher. Learn the basic physics of EHD...it’s not too complicated at the qualitative level. Most of all, be safe and don’t hurt yourself or others. Respect High Voltage and pay attention to all safety warnings! Good luck."

With all past comments and information taken into consideration (and the dangers of using ion-powered propulsion), I have an updated/new question to present - that of which was not accepted on the other website:

Would it be possible to use the concept of the Q-Thruster (not to be confused with the EM-Drive) and electron repulsion to create a new form of repulsion? What I am getting at is a form of repulsion that uses a powerful magnetic field to group electrons on the rear surface of and in the area behind a spacecraft, causing the like charges to repel. The Quantum fluctaions (Casimir effect) would be used to aid in holding the electrons in place - on and behind the spacecraft. The original idea involved the use of a modified plasma thruster. In other words, I've decided that the next step may involve removing the external/carried fuel source entirely, therefore possibly lightening the weight of the spacecraft considerably. The true question is, would a hybrid concept like this be possible and/or feasible?

[swansont]

The q-thruster has not been established as being real, and even if it is, the thrust from it is minuscule (which lends itself to the conclusion that all they measured was noise). You also give no explanation how you think the Casimir force is going to do what you want it to do. Without some established physics to discuss, one can't conclude that this is feasible.

[TopHatProductions115]

To answer the first point, yes the thrust from a Q-Thruster would be miniscule in theory. I was suggesting the use of electrons (and results of having two like charges in close quarters) as the primary source of repulsion/propulsion. Seeing that the repulsive force between like charges produces considerable thrust, I initially thought that this sort of thruster would be a great idea. However, when I looked over the design, I also realized that in most cases, electrons don't simply travel alone (without being near or attached to another particle). In most cases where electrons are sent to another location without use of a 'tangible' medium, one of two things is occuring:

 

-an ionized medium (ex. noble gas/lasing medium) is permitting the flow of electrons from one area to another

-an anode and a cathode facilitate electron flow in a vacuum field electron emission (the vacuum arc)

 

In the case I have presented, I found that niether was in play, creating the issue of how the electrons would flow away from the thruster (in the magnetic field that extends from the rear of the thruster). The only way, that I could devise, of transmitting the electrons without an external fuel source would be by using virtual particles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle#Vacuums), produced by the casimir effect, as 'fuel' and ionnnizing them, producing a virtual plasma. Since plasmas and electrons both react to magnetic fields, I thought that the basic concept behind using the magnetic field as a means of controling output exhaust/thrust still applied. The particles/electrons/ions/plasma produced would be ejected from the back of the craft (rear), producing thrust with minimal use of 'fuel' (in traditional sense).

 

If this did work, it could eliminate the need for fuel in this design, therefore making electricity the only issue to address. I'm hoping that this clears up things a bit (not to copy off of the Q-Thruster idea).

[swansont]

You are still tap-dancing around any detail of how the Casimir force is doing anything here. The Casmir effect does not "produce" charged particles, it's an effect that modifies what happens to virtual particles that continually pop into and out of existence (one view of it, anyway). But it's neutral, and not something that can be ionized. It's not real. The particles annihilate almost immediately after creation.

[TopHatProductions115]

What you're saying is indeed plausible, but there are theories that suggest otherwise.

Take the following source and its contents with a grain of salt - it's Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_vacuum_plasma_thruster).

"The quantum vacuum plasma thruster (or Q-thruster) is a theoretical thruster that would harness quantum vacuum fluctuations to propel a spacecraft. Proponents contend that interaction with 'quantum vacuum plasma' is the cause for thrust produced by an experimental engine (abbreviated to "Q-thruster") proposed for use in deep-space propulsion... If it is correct that quantum vacuum fluctuations can support thrust sufficient to propel a spacecraft, a spacecraft fitted with such a thruster would not need to carry any propellant for its operation... Using a torsion pendulum, White's team claims to have measured approximately 30–50 μN of thrust from a microwave cavity resonator designed by Guido Fetta in an attempt at propellant-less propulsion. Using the same measurement equipment, a non-zero force was also measured on a "null" resonator that was not designed to experience any such force, which Brady and colleagues suggest hints at "interaction with the quantum vacuum virtual plasma"."

If such is true, then the scientists mentioned had to have found some way to either produce directly or modify, from neutral virtual particles, some virtual charged (ions) particles for the experiment to function. The microwave cavity mentioned is strictly used for pruposes of manipulating charged particles/ions. The only other means of manipulating ions/charged particles that my young/inexperienced mind can currently fathom is via the use of a powerful electromagnet. Therefore, if the particles weren't charged, the experiment would not have been as successful. Needless to say, the scientists mentioned have supposedly found a way to produce a "quantum vacuum virtual plasma".

To clarify on what I was trying to do with the Casimir effect, I was wondering if were possible to use it as a means of gathering virtual particles/exotic matter/exotic energy that could be used to produce a substantial propellant when an electrical charge is induced. In other words, removing the need for carrying fuel/propellant by using the Casimir effect as a means of gathering the needed matter/particles instead. The reason(s) that I think the particles would be needed go as follows:

In most cases, electrons don't simply travel alone. In most cases where electrons are sent to another location without use of a 'tangible' medium, one of two things is occuring:

-an ionized medium (ex. noble gas/lasing medium) is permitting the flow of electrons from one area to another

-an anode and a cathode facilitate electron flow in a vacuum field electron emission (the vacuum arc)

But, I could be wrong. If the electrons can be transmitted without use of a medium or differing voltage potentials, enlighten me. It will make the hypothetical design process much less difficult.

[swansont]

 

What you're saying is indeed plausible, but there are theories that suggest otherwise.

Take the following source and its contents with a grain of salt - it's Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_vacuum_plasma_thruster).

"The quantum vacuum plasma thruster (or Q-thruster) is a theoretical thruster that would harness quantum vacuum fluctuations to propel a spacecraft. Proponents contend that interaction with 'quantum vacuum plasma' is the cause for thrust produced by an experimental engine (abbreviated to "Q-thruster") proposed for use in deep-space propulsion... If it is correct that quantum vacuum fluctuations can support thrust sufficient to propel a spacecraft, a spacecraft fitted with such a thruster would not need to carry any propellant for its operation... Using a torsion pendulum, White's team claims to have measured approximately 30–50 μN of thrust from a microwave cavity resonator designed by Guido Fetta in an attempt at propellant-less propulsion. Using the same measurement equipment, a non-zero force was also measured on a "null" resonator that was not designed to experience any such force, which Brady and colleagues suggest hints at "interaction with the quantum vacuum virtual plasma"."

 

 

What got edited in the "…" sections? Anything about how the shakiness of the idea? (Don't bother — I know that's what you omitted)

To clarify on what I was trying to do with the Casimir effect, I was wondering if were possible to use it as a means of gathering virtual particles/exotic matter/exotic energy that could be used to produce a substantial propellant when an electrical charge is induced.

 

No. If by "possible" you restrict the discussion to confirmed physics.

[TopHatProductions115]

In that case, I would have to say that it is improbable that such a mechanism (like the one I suggested) would be able to function. Unless you have any further points that you could add - that would be helpful. I guess the virtual particles concept was a bad turn in this case.

[TopHatProductions115]

In response to the following:

 

'What got edited in the "…" sections? Anything about how the shakiness of the idea? (Don't bother — I know that's what you omitted)'

 

You didn't have to be so condescending. I simply came here to get a definitive answer. Also, I believe I have a few recent sources that could aid in possibly validating what I originally proposed. What I had described was a modified version of the Reactionless Drive theory, that of which encompasses the likes of the EM-Drive, *Q-Thruster, and 'Cannae' Drive. And whilst there are skeptics to the proposed concepts, they have been proven to operate. As you said earlier, though:

(* This theory was the one that most-closely resembled my idea a few years ago, before it became confirmed by NASA)

 

"the thrust from it is minuscule"

 

But it definitely was not noise that NASA and the other recent researchers measured. Using the EM-Drive, they picked up a small 30-50 microNewtons. While small, it is still thrust. In this case, I would think that this means scientists simply need to find a way to optimize the amount of thrust produced from the process.

 

So in modern-day, yes - the drive is improbable. But what about the near future?

 

Also, in response to:

 

"If by "possible" you restrict the discussion to confirmed physics."

 

This process has yet to be properly explained - but it has been confirmed as existing. The results were provided by NASA this time. So, yes this is confirmed Physics. Quantum Physics. Here are a few of the sources I used to research this:

 

http://www.gizmag.com/cannae-reactionless-drive-space-propulsion/33210/

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/evaluating-nasas-futuristic-em-drive/

 

I now ask - is this truly "possible and/or feasible"?