Humanity is devolving

[Pat Hagar]

Over the entire history of the human race even though technology has expanded drastically there humanity has fallen by the wayside. I believe we will eventually go the way of the Dinosaur to extinction. I find this most regrettable. With all our potential to change even the evolution of the universe we choose to take the shortsighted option and live only for immediate personal gain.

 

I would be quite interested in hearing others opinions on this matter.

 

Respectfully,

 

Pat Hagar

[pzkpfw]

*their

[iNow]

All life eventually ends. It's the one thing we all have in common. There is no such thing as devolution. It's all evolution with different environmental pressures.

 

We die from war much less than any of our ancestors, and from illness and childbirth and food born disease and lack of water and heat or cold or predators all at drastically lower rates than ever before. Sure, social media exposes us to more examples of irrational illogical thinking and depravity and ignorance, but those things are over-represented in our media streams, confirmation biased, and fortunately for us we are also in parallel exposed to more beauty, culture, kindness, compassion, ideas, knowledge, love, and wisdom.

 

Perhaps anecdotally the lowest common denominator seems lower, but empirically the mean well-being and richness of life has exploded several fold and many times over.

 

We each get to choose what we see in the world, where we focus our attention, and how we ultimately respond. My recommendation is that we all spend less time focusing on the Idiocracy and more time focusing on the Renaissance and enlightenment happening every single day all around us and collectively become the change we wish to see.

Edited June 15, 2015 by iNow

[John Cuthber]

"Over the entire history of the human race even though technology has expanded drastically there humanity has fallen by the wayside."

In what way?

[TheDivineFool]

Since you use the term 'devolve', I guess that in your opinion the overall trend in human civilization has been negative/backward/harmful/bad/evil.

So, 'evolve' in your world means progress in a good/positive/beneficial way.

 

As far as technology is concerned, I think human moral development is out of sync with technology with the latter lagging behind. Almost everyone is aware of climate change and pollution and would like to do something about it but technology is still dependent on carbon fuel.

 

Also, if you look at history, I'm sure you'll agree we've come a long way since human sacrifice, slavery, ignorance of the importance of the environment and divine interpretation of natural events. Surely, this must be progress in your eyes.

 

What may be said however, in your defense, is that evil has become more sophisticated. So much so that it is difficult to recognize it. Military dominance has been replaced by economic dominance. Slavery has been replaced by human trafficking and racism. These are inevitable as evil minds adapt to the laws enacted to check them. Loopholes are found and readily exploited to produce a class of evil so 'refined' that it may be undetectable.

[Phi for All]

I would be quite interested in hearing others opinions on this matter.

 

I think your perspective is bizarre.

 

We're evolution's grand experiment with higher intelligence. We had opposable thumbs, we got pretty good with tools, and our extra intelligence showed us the benefits of communication and cooperation. We have lots of other bits that increase the value of the whole package, and overall we're the most amazing thing on a planet FULL of amazing things.

 

I think this gloomy perspective on humans is an offshoot of the whole "man is not part of nature" argument that I particularly hate. We coined the term "natural" and made sure it didn't include us, which is pretty twisted. For some reason, the epitome of life on Earth seems to be some kind of boring harmony with every other creature, and we all live off each other until our sun goes red giant and it's all burned up.

 

I'm not sure what your problem with humanity is. You hint at short-sightedness, and obviously are claiming everybody is that way, or a at least a big enough majority to ensure our own demise. But there are a great many people with long-range goals, and even though it often seems like small wars pop up all the time, it used to be worse. That's what I keep coming back to when I hear your ugly word "devolve"; it used to be worse, but now it's better. We used to keep slaves, now we don't. There used to be a LOT more poverty, but now there's less. There used to be a lot more air and water pollution, but now there's less. There used to be a lot more ignorant people, now there are fewer. We're certainly not perfect, but I think we're a lot better off than you think.

[Danijel Gorupec]

Phi, after I quickly checked your stated age I had to award +1 to you... for the spirit, of course. I hope I will follow your footsteps (I am only 18+ behind you).

 

Unfortunately, in last few years I find it increasingly difficult to keep up the spirit (LOL - let me know if I should be drinking or smoking anything special )... Okay, okay, just few days ago I read that Mother Terese had problems with her faith, so I suppose I am not doing that bad after all... Okay, to say at least something seriously: I find our western civilization very much unfocused, like if we see no problems to solve. So we look for anything to entertain us.

 

That said, I must go now check latest Kim Kardashian Ass pictures (selfie ones!)

 

...

 

Phy, after I return I would appreciate to hear your personal opinion - were people equally unfocused 40-45 years ago?

[Phi for All]

I find our western civilization very much unfocused, like if we see no problems to solve. So we look for anything to entertain us.

 

That said, I must go now check latest Kim Kardashian Ass pictures (selfie ones!)

There's no problems with Kim's ass, so go out and find something that meets your definition of a problem, and solve it. But when you do, make sure to stop kicking yourself for only looking for entertainment.

 

Also, if you choose to, your entertainment can be more fulfilling. I do Netflix so I don't have to watch commercials or sitcoms. I go to live theater, and local comedy shops. If your entertainment is just killing time, you need to change.

 

Phy, after I return I would appreciate to hear your personal opinion - were people equally unfocused 40-45 years ago?

Of course. Most all the complaints you hear about society come from every generation. Ours had a better work ethic, ours was more focused, ours had better morals.

 

If this were really true, that would mean if you go back far enough, you'd find a generation that had the best work ethic, was the most focused, and had the best morals. That's just not what we've experienced.

 

It's hard to trust thoughts about work ethics. We always think we work harder, longer, better than anyone who hasn't been at it as long.

 

I do think the latest generations have more to focus on, so it might make them often seem unfocused. It didn't take me as long to flip through the four TV channels I had growing up as it does for kids today. My music collection took up more space when I was growing up, but held only a fraction of the titles available now.

 

I never dreamed, growing up, that I would ever be able to have discussions like this with people around the world. I never dreamed I'd have access to so much entertainment and perspectives. I never dreamed I would one day sit in my living room and move a simulated rover across the surface of frikkin' Mars. I don't think we're unfocused now as much as overwhelmed by choices.

 

And are we really less focused these days when we can accomplish so much more in a day than we used to be able to? I think life simply gets more complicated the older you are, and fortunately your wisdom and ability to cope increase as well.

[StringJunky]

...I never dreamed, growing up, that I would ever be able to have discussions like this with people around the world. I never dreamed I'd have access to so much entertainment and perspectives. I never dreamed I would one day sit in my living room and move a simulated rover across the surface of frikkin' Mars. I don't think we're unfocused now as much as overwhelmed by choices.

 

And are we really less focused these days when we can accomplish so much more in a day than we used to be able to? I think life simply gets more complicated the older you are, and fortunately your wisdom and ability to cope increase as well.

Four channels Phi? You were lucky, when I were a lad in UK we only had 3. I can't tell you how much I love the internet.... Data, Data, Data! I wish I'd been born in the Nineties. I was a bookworm as a kid but the books out of the library were at least ten years out of date. it's not all roses, but we have never had a better time to exchange information and get a truly world-wide view of things so we can find solutions to our problems.

[iNow]

I think your perspective is bizarre. <snip> I'm not sure what your problem with humanity is. <snip> I think we're a lot better off than you think.

In all fairness, I can easily see the validity in this perspective when viewed in terms of climate change or global terrorism.

... or the Youtube comments section

[Phi for All]

In all fairness, I can easily see the validity in this perspective when viewed in terms of climate change or global terrorism.

... or the Youtube comments section

 

The top three bastions of ignorance in the world today. Greed, lack of education, and textspeak could keep us from getting offplanet.

 

 

 

I'm curious, in rereading the OP, it seems our "humanity has fallen by the wayside". What exactly is humanity, and why does it decrease as our technology increases? Could tools ever make us less human?

[StringJunky]

 

... textspeak could keep us from getting offplanet.

Isn't this style faster and more efficient? Less symbolism for a given idea.

[Phi for All]

Isn't this style faster and more efficient? Less symbolism for a given idea.

 

It just seems to make what's written in the Youtube comments section all the more tragic.

[StringJunky]

 

It just seems to make what's written in the Youtube comments section all the more tragic.

I know what you mean, good job we are on the right side of fifty. ;

[Ten oz]

There's no problems with Kim's ass, so go out and find something that meets your definition of a problem, and solve it. But when you do, make sure to stop kicking yourself for only looking for entertainment.

 

Also, if you choose to, your entertainment can be more fulfilling. I do Netflix so I don't have to watch commercials or sitcoms. I go to live theater, and local comedy shops. If your entertainment is just killing time, you need to change.

 

 

Of course. Most all the complaints you hear about society come from every generation. Ours had a better work ethic, ours was more focused, ours had better morals.

 

If this were really true, that would mean if you go back far enough, you'd find a generation that had the best work ethic, was the most focused, and had the best morals. That's just not what we've experienced.

 

It's hard to trust thoughts about work ethics. We always think we work harder, longer, better than anyone who hasn't been at it as long.

 

I do think the latest generations have more to focus on, so it might make them often seem unfocused. It didn't take me as long to flip through the four TV channels I had growing up as it does for kids today. My music collection took up more space when I was growing up, but held only a fraction of the titles available now.

 

I never dreamed, growing up, that I would ever be able to have discussions like this with people around the world. I never dreamed I'd have access to so much entertainment and perspectives. I never dreamed I would one day sit in my living room and move a simulated rover across the surface of frikkin' Mars. I don't think we're unfocused now as much as overwhelmed by choices.

 

And are we really less focused these days when we can accomplish so much more in a day than we used to be able to? I think life simply gets more complicated the older you are, and fortunately your wisdom and ability to cope increase as well.

Good post. Every generation mourns the loss of the world as they had experienced it. Radio distracted people from reading good literature then later TV came along and ruined good radio. That is the cycle. Crooners were replaced by rhythm and blues which fell to rock n' roll and then came rap. Each passing era was said to be last for music. Recently I caught myself complaining about all the sequels and novel based films being released in theaters. lamenting about how few original stories seem to be making it to theaters nowdays. I complained that video games and easy access to streaming video was killing quality cinema. Mid way through the discussion i realized that all that was really happening is that I was getting old.

 

Seperately, I think many people confuse hard work with productive work. back in the 1800's many people worked very hard. They lived on their own patches of property and spent from sunrise to sunset tending to a long list of chores necessary to perpetuate their existence but did not produce things which directly benifited their peers or society as a whole. Being freed from daily chores allows humans for more time to think, learn, imagine, and invent. More has be learned, recorded, and passed on in the last 100yrs than the thousand years before it. All by people with increasingly easiers lives surrounded by a growing number of distractions.

[Phi for All]

So does anyone think that tool use is unnatural, and that we're losing our "humanity" as our tools become more sophisticated?

[iNow]

Depends on how one defines our "humanity."

[Phi for All]

Depends on how one defines our "humanity."

 

"Our humanity" is based on being humane, imo, which is usually defined by benevolence and compassion, for each other and the life around us. I like this definition better than the natural vs unnatural perspective, since it seems to say that being kinder and more respectful is being more human. If we're going to set ourselves apart from nature, I'd rather be known as the reasoning, compassionate species, rather than the "unnatural" species.

 

Our humanity is usually the part of us that we're very proud of, the part that selflessly reaches out to help when needed, the part that thinks about the greater good, the part that understands we're all connected, and it's the part that can transcend our baser, animal urges and behavior. Being humane is to reject greed and oppression in favor of community and cooperation.

[StringJunky]

 

.. Being humane is to reject greed and oppression in favor of community and cooperation.

Those are ideals. Two lines from a couple of Floyd songs is more the reality

 

"Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie"

 

"Together we stand, divided we fall"

[Phi for All]

Those are ideals.

 

Ideals for being human, but not for being humane.

 

Greedy and oppressive, yet compassionate and benevolent? It's probably those that are the former but think they're the latter that makes the OP think we're losing ourselves to technology.

[John Cuthber]

It's almost as if Hagar never had any intention of coming back and responding to the points raised...

[Phi for All]

It's almost as if Hagar never had any intention of coming back and responding to the points raised...

 

Well, we don't want anyone "falling by the wayside" by over-using the internet....

[MonDie]

IMO "devolving" could only reasonably mean mutation accumulation, or increased mutation load & mutation rate, presumably due to—I'm about to invent terms—a lowered survival threshold on genetic integrity.

 

Rates and Fitness Consequences of New Mutations in Humans (Peter D Keightley)

Muller (1950) warned that mildly deleterious mutations may be accumulating in modern human populations, because natural selection has been relaxed by better environmental conditions.

 

Otherwise, IMO, you can't call it "devolving" just because nature isn't selecting what you want it to.

Edited June 19, 2015 by MonDie

[Pat Hagar]

 

"Our humanity" is based on being humane, imo, which is usually defined by benevolence and compassion, for each other and the life around us. I like this definition better than the natural vs unnatural perspective, since it seems to say that being kinder and more respectful is being more human. If we're going to set ourselves apart from nature, I'd rather be known as the reasoning, compassionate species, rather than the "unnatural" species.

 

Our humanity is usually the part of us that we're very proud of, the part that selflessly reaches out to help when needed, the part that thinks about the greater good, the part that understands we're all connected, and it's the part that can transcend our baser, animal urges and behavior. Being humane is to reject greed and oppression in favor of community and cooperation.

Yes, you come very close to what I meant. I do not believe my generation was any better or worse than todays or any other for that matter. Possibly I might have chosen a better word than "devolve" but when I look at the comparison between what our technology has achieved and where we are now as we relate to each other I can't help but notice a great difference.

Much of what was mentioned above "We die from war much less than any of our ancestors, and from illness and childbirth and food born disease" etc. Most of these improvements come from advancements of our technology and not because we are any better than our ancestors were thousands of years ago. If we were able to work together more efficiently I believe there are no limits to what we could accomplish.

 

Respectfully,

Pat Hagar

 

 

"I think your perspective is bizarre.

 

We're evolution's grand experiment with higher intelligence. We had opposable thumbs, we got pretty good with tools, and our extra intelligence showed us the benefits of communication and cooperation. We have lots of other bits that increase the value of the whole package, and overall we're the most amazing thing on a planet FULL of amazing things.

 

I think this gloomy perspective on humans is an offshoot of the whole "man is not part of nature" argument that I particularly hate. We coined the term "natural" and made sure it didn't include us, which is pretty twisted. For some reason, the epitome of life on Earth seems to be some kind of boring harmony with every other creature, and we all live off each other until our sun goes red giant and it's all burned up.

 

I'm not sure what your problem with humanity is. You hint at short-sightedness, and obviously are claiming everybody is that way, or a at least a big enough majority to ensure our own demise. But there are a great many people with long-range goals, and even though it often seems like small wars pop up all the time, it used to be worse. That's what I keep coming back to when I hear your ugly word "devolve"; it used to be worse, but now it's better. We used to keep slaves, now we don't. There used to be a LOT more poverty, but now there's less. There used to be a lot more air and water pollution, but now there's less. There used to be a lot more ignorant people, now there are fewer. We're certainly not perfect, but I think we're a lot better off than you think."

 

I for one am not overly impressed with "evolution's grand experiment with higher intelligence" and it has nothing to do with "man is not part of nature". Yes, at this point I believe there is enough that do not care about improving the world as a whold to ensure our demise. And I also believe this will continue to be the case unless we do better about working together.

Slavery is still the norm in some parts of the world. Some things have improved over time but I do not think it will be enough to turn things around. You may dislike my "ugly word "devolve"" but I consider it to be a fact of life although a distasteful one.

 

Respectfully,

Pat Hagar

P.S.

Sorry about my editing error above.

It's almost as if Hagar never had any intention of coming back and responding to the points raised...

I do have some other things to do besides post here and I did not realize I would be so greatly missed.Also, I was not trying to start a debate. I was only curious if others had considered the same thing.

"Over the entire history of the human race even though technology has expanded drastically there humanity has fallen by the wayside."

In what way?

I believe my above posts should explain what I meant.

 

Respectfully,

Pat Hagar

Edited June 22, 2015 by hagar

[Phi for All]

Much of what was mentioned above "We die from war much less than any of our ancestors, and from illness and childbirth and food born disease" etc. Most of these improvements come from advancements of our technology and not because we are any better than our ancestors were thousands of years ago. If we were able to work together more efficiently I believe there are no limits to what we could accomplish.

 

But who has been directing the advancement of human technology? Humans! If you think our tech has improved life, then you must see that it's humans that have been improving it, making it work more efficiently and humanely. We ARE able to work together more efficiently, and we continue to improve in that regard.

 

We're better than our ancestors. We have more to deal with, much more, but we're much more educated overall, and have a much clearer access to ideas and processes from other cultures. Humans still have conflicts, but with the way global culture works, we cooperate and share with each other FAR more than we isolate and hate.

 

I for one am not overly impressed with "evolution's grand experiment with higher intelligence" and it has nothing to do with "man is not part of nature". Yes, at this point I believe there is enough that do not care about improving the world as a whold to ensure our demise. And I also believe this will continue to be the case unless we do better about working together.

Slavery is still the norm in some parts of the world. Some things have improved over time but I do not think it will be enough to turn things around. You may dislike my "ugly word "devolve"" but I consider it to be a fact of life although a distasteful one.

I don't know what metric you use to "impress" yourself, and I'm beginning to suspect it's a metric we'll never be able to meet. Very similar to the "Humans are unnatural" argument, it's a stacked deck being used against us, we'll never be "natural" by that criterion. And just in case I'm misunderstanding you here, I'd like you to verify that you aren't impressed by the way our intelligence takes raw data from billions of sources and turns it into incredibly complex information.

 

Also, I find it more than a bit cynical that you claim the amount of people who care about improving the world is insufficient to avoid "our demise", when something like "caring" is a variable that can change almost overnight. If you like, I can provide a list of links to anecdotal evidence that human caring can have upsurges that accomplish great good. And as our communication capabilities increase, so does our ability to affect things like caring.

 

You overlook the fact that we've accomplished what no other creature could come close to, we've managed to figure out how to leave the planet of our birth. We could spread Earth's life to other places, if we find that life is more unique than we thought. Evolution has no scheme in mind, but it's a mechanism that helps species survive, and there's not much else that could help life on Earth if our sun goes red giant. We could be an evolutionary linchpin for the continued development of all life as we know it.

 

And the reason I don't like the word "devolve" is because it's misleading on a science forum, where evolution has a very specific meaning. What you're talking about is NOT the opposite of evolution, so I think you're making this concept unnecessarily difficult to learn, and that's what I find ugly about it.