Do you really kill mountain lions in US Canada

[John Cuthber]

"Do you understand that not hunting results in far more suffering in the long run than hunting? "

As far as I can tell, that's only true if man is the biggest killer.

Most animals live and die without being hunted by a human- so our intervention doesn't make a direct difference.

 

There is of course an indirect effect in some cases.

No passenger pigeon is suffering any more; because we killed them all.

Should we celebrate that fact?

 

In a similar way, we have massively reduced the populations of bears and such- for our own convenience- but don't pretend that we did it to reduce animal suffering.

 

And that's before you get to the question of how much more suffering there is among, for example, deer.

The old and infirm used to be eaten by wolves- we shot the wolves- the deer now die of starvation and disease.

Edited July 11, 2015 by John Cuthber

[StringJunky]

...

The old and infirm used to be eaten by wolves- we shot the wolves- the deer now die of starvation and disease.

And modern hunting methods with guns weaken the gene pool because the 'fittest' are just as likely to be killed as the weakest.

[Moontanman]

"Do you understand that not hunting results in far more suffering in the long run than hunting? "

As far as I can tell, that's only true if man is the biggest killer.

Most animals live and die without being hunted by a human- so our intervention doesn't make a direct difference.

 

There is of course an indirect effect in some cases.

No passenger pigeon is suffering any more; because we killed them all.

Should we celebrate that fact?

 

In a similar way, we have massively reduced the populations of bears and such- for our own convenience- but don't pretend that we did it to reduce animal suffering.

 

And that's before you get to the question of how much more suffering there is among, for example, deer.

The old and infirm used to be eaten by wolves- we shot the wolves- the deer now die of starvation and disease.

 

Maybe I was unclear, where top predators are no longer a factor, humans have become the top predator, deer for instance are a menace in some areas because they are prone to being hit by cars often doing considerable damage and sometimes killing the people in the cars. Top predators if allowed to live unchecked can result in the death of humans.

 

In North America mountain lions and bears kill people every year, in fact the smaller bear species, the black bear, result in more attacks than the larger grizzly bears.

 

I was not pretending hunting was primarily for reducing suffering of animals although the result of not hunting does result in starvation and being hit by cars as well. In many areas of the US hunting seasons have been lengthened due to overpopulation of animals like deer.

 

The idea that predators do not attack humans due to some innate fear of humans somewhat exaggerated.

 

It is true that humans created the problem by killing off the top predators for fur, meat, and sport but the solution is not allowing top predators to roam the streets.

And modern hunting methods with guns weaken the gene pool because the 'fittest' are just as likely to be killed as the weakest.

 

 

This is true, the deer with the biggest antlers is sought out over the deer that has smaller antlers and antler size is one sign of health.

 

It works that way with fish too, we have unwittingly selected for fish that spawn at an earlier age and smaller size do to the practice of throwing the small ones back in favor of keeping the big ones...

Edited July 11, 2015 by Moontanman

[ACG52]

Between 1991 and 2003 in North America there were 73 attacks by mountain lions and 10 deaths.

[Acme]

...

In North America mountain lions and bears kill people every year, in fact the smaller bear species, the black bear, result in more attacks than the larger grizzly bears....

I live in Washington state and the last time a mountain lion/cougar/puma killed a person was 80 years ago. (Not sure about black bear fatalities here but I presume it's been a long time too.) Because cougars and black bear will attack people if given the chance, I never go into the forest unarmed but I do not and would not hunt cougars for sport. I would only hunt bear if pressed for food. Fatal attacks by these animals are rare.

 

List of fatal bear attacks in N. America

 

List of fatal cougar attacks in N. America

Edited July 11, 2015 by Acme

[John Cuthber]

We get deer on the site at work. Driving into one would probably get you into trouble for driving without due care and attention.

[Acme]

We get deer on the site at work. Driving into one would probably get you into trouble for driving without due care and attention.

Deer here have the habit of running across the road in front of vehicles with no warning, often at night. The only trouble a driver is in with authorities is if they keep the carcass and don't turn it over.

[Thorham]

Deleted.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Thorham

[ACG52]

According to that source the last mountain lion fatality was a 3 year old boy in 1999in Colorado. As people move into what was wilderness areas out west such encounters become more common.

[Moontanman]

I live in Washington state and the last time a mountain lion/cougar/puma killed a person was 80 years ago. (Not sure about black bear fatalities here but I presume it's been a long time too.) Because cougars and black bear will attack people if given the chance, I never go into the forest unarmed but I do not and would not hunt cougars for sport. I would only hunt bear if pressed for food. Fatal attacks by these animals are rare.

 

List of fatal bear attacks in N. America

 

List of fatal cougar attacks in N. America

 

 

You are correct they are rare and they are rare because their population is low, in my town we usually have a bear or two wander into town each year, they are tranquilized and released back in the green swamp, nearly every parking lot drainage pond has an alligator or two.

 

An attack, even if not fatal, is devastating but 130 people are killed by accidentally hitting a deer....

[ACG52]

There have also been cougar sightings in New Hampshire.

[Acme]

You are correct they are rare and they are rare because their population is low, in my town we usually have a bear or two wander into town each year, they are tranquilized and released back in the green swamp, nearly every parking lot drainage pond has an alligator or two.

 

An attack, even if not fatal, is devastating but 130 people are killed by accidentally hitting a deer....

Populations vary by region, but here in Washington neither bear or cougar are 'threatened'. Were they, there would be no hunting allowed. This page estimates the cougar population in the western half of my state at 2000 to 2500 animals. >> Living with Wildlife: Cougars (Mountain Lions)

 

Statewide, black bears range from 25000 to 30000 animals. >> Living with Wildlife: Black Bears

 

Similar to your area, animals of either species that become a nuisance in urban areas are first tranquilized if possible and relocated. Repeat offenders are euthanized.

[overtone]

 

 

Between 1991 and 2003 in North America there were 73 attacks by mountain lions and 10 deaths.

Many cougar attacks involve escaped or discarded captive cougars. Such animals should probably be shot, rather than released into the wild - they are not mentally normal animals, they are less competent hunters (likely to be desperate), often they have just recently hit puberty, and they have no real fear of people, dogs, etc.

[Thorham]

Many cougar attacks involve escaped or discarded captive cougars. Such animals should probably be shot

Yeah, great idea! Lets first use them, and then kill them when we don't want them anymore, nice! The ethics are strong in this thread!

[ACG52]

Many cougar attacks involve escaped or discarded captive cougars.

Where did you get that idea from?

[zapatos]

Yeah, great idea! Lets first use them, and then kill them when we don't want them anymore, nice! The ethics are strong in this thread!

At least most people in this thread are debating based on logic instead of emotion as you are.

[Moontanman]

Yeah, great idea! Lets first use them, and then kill them when we don't want them anymore, nice! The ethics are strong in this thread!

 

What would you recommend as a solution to the problem?

[Thorham]

At least most people in this thread are debating based on logic instead of emotion as you are.

 

Lack of emotion here is the problem. You can't solve everything with logic, because not every problem is a science or technical problem.

 

What would you recommend as a solution to the problem?

I haven't the faintest idea, but there has to be something better then just killing things.

 

Humans, always seeing themselves as so damned important. If it's a non-human species however, then we can just kill'em. Nothing wrong with killing non-humans after all.

 

Savage is what it is.

[Moontanman]

 

Lack of emotion here is the problem. You can't solve everything with logic, because not every problem is a science or technical problem.

 

I haven't the faintest idea, but there has to be something better then just killing things.

 

Humans, always seeing themselves as so damned important. If it's a non-human species however, then we can just kill'em. Nothing wrong with killing non-humans after all.

 

Savage is what it is.

 

 

I tend to agree that just killing things for fun is somewhat less than sane but unless you have a different solution to the real problems we face then you are part of the problem...

[Thorham]

 

 

I tend to agree that just killing things for fun is somewhat less than sane but unless you have a different solution to the real problems we face then you are part of the problem...

 

Of course I'm part of the problem. All of humanity is. We have a long road ahead of us. We must develop mentally for our own sake as well as the rest of the world's.

[MonDie]

Humans, always seeing themselves as so damned important. If it's a non-human species however, then we can just kill'em. Nothing wrong with killing non-humans after all.

 

Savage is what it is.

Hunting is natural. Jeffrey Dahmer was only a minor aberration.

[overtone]

Where did you get that idea from?

Keeping track of what the game wardens and other pros said about the past few cougar incidents in the local papers.

 

We have wild cougars in my general area - not many, but they cruise through on occasion. They are hard to verify, even - hidden motion cameras over bait, tracks on the stream bank, that kind of thing.

 

Not overstating - cougars are among the very few predators who will under normal conditions (not sick or injured) attempt to kill humans for food, and if prevalent are a genuine hazard - but when every time a cougar threatens or attacks someone the professionals go out of their way to mention the problem of feral cougars and recommend against keeping cougars as pets, it seems reasonable to take the hint.

 

 

 

 

Lack of emotion here is the problem.

Lack of respect - in this case, for hunting and other deep aspects of human nature - is among the problems.

 

People who trivialize important matters - make house pets of baby cougars, talk about hunting as if it were "killing for fun", actually kill for trivial fun as if playing a video game - lack respect.

Edited July 13, 2015 by overtone

[MonDie]

Many cougar attacks involve escaped or discarded captive cougars. Such animals should probably be shot, rather than released into the wild - they are not mentally normal animals, they are less competent hunters (likely to be desperate), often they have just recently hit puberty, and they have no real fear of people, dogs, etc.

 

Maybe give it a growth hormone antagonist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laron_syndrome). You could keep it at a manageable size, and acquire endocrinological insights.

[Moontanman]

 

Of course I'm part of the problem. All of humanity is. We have a long road ahead of us. We must develop mentally for our own sake as well as the rest of the world's.

 

 

Humans are predators, killing is part of our instinctive behavior, I see nothing wrong with killing animals for food....

[Thorham]

Humans are predators

Indeed

 

killing is part of our instinctive behavior

I somehow doubt that. I certainly feel no need to kill animals.

 

I see nothing wrong with killing animals for food....

 

It's savage. Nature on this planet is WRONG. The way this world works is WRONG, and the sooner we develop out of this mess, the better.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Thorham