515 so far this year...

[Ten oz]

I don't think it is a coincidence that the United States is also a world leader in capital punishment. More than policing standards or guns I think there is a psychological issue at play. In the United States many people feel that others both deserve to die and that killing those who deserve to die is a heroic act. Whether the number this year is 601 or eventually balloons to over a thousand doesnt really matter. Each instance will require debate to prove the that the dead person didn't deserve it and not the other way around. The total number of dead alone falls on deaf ears. How many of the people killed by police this year didn't have it coming is the only number that might capture the majorities attention. Even then we must keep in mind that the bar for having it coming is very low. Talking back, being guiltly of any crime ever, or failing to accurately follow directions is generally enough for someone to be seen as responsible for their own death at the hands of police.

[iNow]

FFS, guys... Let's get our act together please, can we?

 

 

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/15/8970407/gardena-police-shooting-video

Ricardo Diaz Zeferino fidgeted but appeared to keep his hands up for most of the tense encounter as multiple Gardena, California, police officers aimed their guns at him on June 2, 2013. But when he took off his baseball cap and briefly held down his hands, police opened a hail of gunfire killing the unarmed man and wounding Eutiquio Acevedo Mendez, who was standing near Zeferino.

 

A new video obtained by the Los Angeles Times shows the grisly dashboard camera footage, which the city of Gardena fought to keep secret in court.

 

Warning: graphic footage of the shooting:

[dimreepr]

I don't think it is a coincidence that the United States is also a world leader in capital punishment. More than policing standards or guns I think there is a psychological issue at play. In the United States many people feel that others both deserve to die and that killing those who deserve to die is a heroic act. Whether the number this year is 601 or eventually balloons to over a thousand doesnt really matter. Each instance will require debate to prove the that the dead person didn't deserve it and not the other way around. The total number of dead alone falls on deaf ears. How many of the people killed by police this year didn't have it coming is the only number that might capture the majorities attention. Even then we must keep in mind that the bar for having it coming is very low. Talking back, being guiltly of any crime ever, or failing to accurately follow directions is generally enough for someone to be seen as responsible for their own death at the hands of police.

 

 

No one deserves to die, outside of Hollywood.

[imatfaal]

FFS, guys... Let's get our act together please, can we?

 

 

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/15/8970407/gardena-police-shooting-video

 

That is very very shocking - as is, albeit to a lesser extent, the other editorial video further down the page.

 

We need a society in which every person who had seen that video over the last two years and acted to keep it secret is asked (in a truth and reconciliation sort of setting) what they thought the hiding of this video would achieve. The police clearly need to be investigated - two years after the event there will be claims of "I don't recall" - but a criminal court should determine whether their actions were objectively reasonable. But more importantly the city and those that took decision to suppress this video need to publicly examined to determine what good they believed they were aiding.

 

---

 

615

 

Stafford was arrested for trying to sell stolen puppies. After arriving at the county jail for booking, a 'brief physical altercation' occurred and Stafford became unconscious, according to police. He died after officers attempted to render medical assistance, according to police.

 

One hundred people in 28 days since I opened this thread - some justified, some horrific; each one is one too many

[iNow]

But more importantly the city and those that took decision to suppress this video need to publicly examined to determine what good they believed they were aiding.

Regardless their response, I recognize extraordinarily strong strains of us/them tribal behavior and rampant pack mentality in their actions/behaviors, perhaps even a fairly significant degree of dehumanization of those "others" and desensitization to their rights and citizenship.

[imatfaal]

Regardless their response, I recognize extraordinarily strong strains of us/them tribal behavior and rampant pack mentality in their actions/behaviors, perhaps even a fairly significant degree of dehumanization of those "others" and desensitization to their rights and citizenship.

 

Agree completely - it is those notions of otherness, us/them, automatic recharacterisation of members of the public into dangers to society, etc. which can be addressed only by rapprochement, dialogue, and a fundamental change in the relationship between police/authority and society at large. You cannot legislate people into thinking about other members of the community in a more fraternal, accepting manner - but with greater outreach, a continous interaction (ie not just after 911 is called), and a positive will to break down barriers then a fellow-feeling can be fostered. I see parallels with the change in recidivism if the offender meets and talks to the victim - the improvement in outlook for both the victim and the offender are markedly improved; however it takes immense bravery for victims of, sometimes violent, crime to confront and converse with their persecutor.

[StringJunky]

Don't US policeman have batons and other methods of non-lethal force against unarmed people?

 

 

July 17, 2015

 

Darrius Stewart

Demographics

Black Male, 19

 

Location

5799 Winchester Rd

Memphis, Tennessee

Armed

No

Cause of death

Gunshot

Police department

Memphis Police Department

Stewart was traveling in a vehicle that was stopped by police for a broken headlight. Authorities said he was placed in the back of a patrol car, unhandcuffed, while officers ran his name. When the officers returned to handcuff Stewart and take him into custody for outstanding warrants, police said he became combative and struck an officer with the handcuffs. The officer then drew his gun and fired. Stewart's mother told local news that her son had never been arrested and that the warrants were for someone else with the same name.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database#darrius-stewart-628

Edited July 22, 2015 by StringJunky

[imatfaal]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34915169

 

A white Chicago police officer who shot a black teenager 16 times last year has been charged with first-degree murder, state lawyers have said.

 

And again the city, police department, and politicians of all hues have conspired to keep video footage hidden - it is only because a court has ordered release of footage on wednesday that this seems to have been brought to a head

 

---

 

And yesterday we reached 1024

 

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database#

[Hans de Vries]

A lot of these are hardcore gangsters or other people who, for reasons known only to them, decided to resitt police's attempt to arrest them.

 

In Brazil police kills about 7000 people per year

[CharonY]

According to amnesty international Brazil has a horrible track record of police-related deaths. I am not sure how that relates to the topic at hand, though. Even if suspects resisted arrest, the response should be proportionate. Out of the 1036 deaths, 204 (or 20%) were unarmed, for example. While some may have been justified to a degree it does seem that in many cases the officers were not able to de-escalate a situation. This could be due to lack of training, for example.

[iNow]

I'd like to see evidence regarding just how many of these are "hardcore gangsters," and also to hear a clear explanation of why Hans feels it's okay to murder a citizen for running from the police / resisting arrest if the life of the officer is not in any immediate danger.

[StringJunky]

It's easier to shoot than run after someone after just having lunch at Maccies.

[Wolfhnd]

Cops Kill Many More Americans Than the FBI's Data Shows

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/10/police-shootings-fbi-data-missing-errors

 

 

Whatever else you take away from the new interest in police killings the message is clear be very careful how you act around them. You don't have to be a member of a minority to run afoul of an angry police officer. There are a half million police officers in the U.S. and common sense tells you some of them are not nice people.

[imatfaal]

Cops Kill Many More Americans Than the FBI's Data Shows

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/10/police-shootings-fbi-data-missing-errors

 

It was the lack of central accounting of this terrible statistic that was one of the reasons which prompted me to start the thread

 

 

 

What make this comparison of statistics worse is that the Independent Police Complaints Commission publishes this information - whereas the information in the USA is provided by media sources (my figure was from the Guardian's website as linked) as there is no central authority that provides the information. It is almost as if they were hoping that if they didn't publish the information that no one would notice how bad the problem was

 

 

Whatever else you take away from the new interest in police killings the message is clear be very careful how you act around them. You don't have to be a member of a minority to run afoul of an angry police officer. There are a half million police officers in the U.S. and common sense tells you some of them are not nice people.

 

 

And that need to be cautious and and extra careful is wrong - I should not pay for a "lack of respect" for duly appointed authority with my life.

 

Your last point is obvious but needs repeating - with over half a million (1.1 million full time staff of which 745k are sworn officers plus 45000 from central agencies) you are going to get bad apples. But the rooting out of those bad apples should be a prime ambition of the police authorities themselves - whereas what we get from the evidence is that the authorities are determined to cover up all instances of impropriety and law-breaking

[Wolfhnd]

 

 

 

And that need to be cautious and and extra careful is wrong - I should not pay for a "lack of respect" for duly appointed authority with my life.

 

Your last point is obvious but needs repeating - with over half a million (1.1 million full time staff of which 745k are sworn officers plus 45000 from central agencies) you are going to get bad apples. But the rooting out of those bad apples should be a prime ambition of the police authorities themselves - whereas what we get from the evidence is that the authorities are determined to cover up all instances of impropriety and law-breaking

 

It may seem unnecessary to point out that people should be careful to be compliant with police officers even if they are innocent but it is a message that needs to get out there. We are not totally at the mercy of authorities who "cover up all instances of impropriety' just as when dealing with criminals there are strategies that are effective at reducing risks.

 

You don't have to be trying to excuse or cover up the crimes committed by police officer to realize that it is going to be difficult to root out bad cops when the good cops often depend on each other for survival. If you are stranded on an island you are unlikely to criticize the moral character of a person with a boat. Most of us are never faced with that kind of moral dilemma and when we are how often do we do the right thing.

 

I have been particularly disappointed with our current White House in regards to whistle blowers. The problems we face with reforming police departments extend to almost every institution in society. While nobody may like a "snitch" it is remarkable how seldom insider trading is exposed from the inside for example. I don't want us to become soviet era Russia where everyone is spying on their neighbor but stronger protection and encouragement for whistle blowers would be of considerable help in rooting out a number of evils.

[DrP]

http://www.liberalamerica.org/2015/12/04/7-year-old-girl-killed-at-soccer-practice-by-paranoid-man-with-concealed-carry-permit/

 

I am no longer surprised by this.. it should be shocking. I read the other day that so far in 2015 you have had more mass shootings that DAYS in 2015. It is your own moronic views and laws that allow this...

[StringJunky]

Mental Illness + Firearms = Petrol + Matches

Edited December 6, 2015 by StringJunky

[TheGeckomancer]

A lot of these are hardcore gangsters or other people who, for reasons known only to them, decided to resitt police's attempt to arrest them.

 

In Brazil police kills about 7000 people per year

 

 

Brazil is also one of the few places with blatantly more corrupt and violent cops. We do not look up to their law enforcement, no one should. In fact you just named one of the worst countries in the world for that thing.

 

It's funny, I didn't do hard fact checking, just some basic google searches, but it seems there have been more police murders than mass shootings in the united states, and more people killed by cops than killed in shootings not involved with cops. At that point I am seriously wondering why cops are allowed to have guns but we are having a problem with american citizens having them when they are WAY safer? Seriously, if we took ALL the Americans who HAVE guns are not using them violently, and compared that to the cop population and what percentage of them are executing american citizens..... I feel safer with disarmed cops and armed citizens.

Edited December 16, 2015 by TheGeckomancer

[Ten oz]

Brazil is also one of the few places with blatantly more corrupt and violent cops. We do not look up to their law enforcement, no one should. In fact you just named one of the worst countries in the world for that thing.

 

It's funny, I didn't do hard fact checking, just some basic google searches, but it seems there have been more police murders than mass shootings in the united states, and more people killed by cops than killed in shootings not involved with cops. At that point I am seriously wondering why cops are allowed to have guns but we are having a problem with american citizens having them when they are WAY safer? Seriously, if we took ALL the Americans who HAVE guns are not using them violently, and compared that to the cop population and what percentage of them are executing american citizens..... I feel safer with disarmed cops and armed citizens.

It is a bit of a chicken or the egg debate at times. Police often site the number of guns on the street as their justification for shooting when someone puts their hands in a pocket or does anything an officer can verbalize in court as suspicious. If less people were armed it would be harder for police to justify their heavy handed proceedures. In lieu of the reality we have however I moderately agree with your sentiment.

[iNow]

Thought this was interesting:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/upshot/in-other-countries-youre-as-likely-to-be-killed-by-a-falling-object-as-a-gun.html?_r=0

[imatfaal]

 

A Cleveland grand jury has declined to bring charges against police officers who shot and killed a 12-year-old black boy armed with a toy gun.

Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Prosecutor Tim McGinty called the events that led to the death of Tamir Rice "the prefect storm of human errors".

He said it was not unreasonable for the officers to fear for their lives.

The announcement comes at a time when the deaths of black men at the hands of police has sparked a national debate.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35191347

 

---

 

and it is now 1125.

[Willie71]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35191347

 

---

 

and it is now 1125.

 

This is the only thing sadder than the gun violence itself. Prosecutors who defend the murderers. On what planet was it reasonable for the officers to fear for their lives in this situation, outside of their own stupidity for violating every standard of effective engagement in a risky situation? Minimum negligent homicide, and that is being generous.

[Ten oz]

This is the only thing sadder than the gun violence itself. Prosecutors who defend the murderers. On what planet was it reasonable for the officers to fear for their lives in this situation, outside of their own stupidity for violating every standard of effective engagement in a risky situation? Minimum negligent homicide, and that is being generous.

It is the perfect storm of overlapping issues people tend to be the least sincere about; race and politics.

 

To acknowledge racism in our criminal justice system would be to acknowledge an on going injustice that's on the level of segregation. We (USA) has the highest prison population in the world. Millions are being stripped of their rights and harassed in the streets by local govt officials in part to racism is bigger and more insidious than we are comfortable with confronting. Rather the argument gets made that blacks simply commit more crime. Bait and switch arguments are employed to avoid the issue. If a police officer kills an unarmed black person the argument is that blacks kill blacks in Chicago so why don't we talk about that. Point out disproportionate incarceration length for drugs and the argument is why are so many black children raised by single mothers why don't we talk about that.

 

In political debates people tend to just look for the victory. Find an argument that works (true or not) and ride it home. Wrap yourself up in the flag, talk about the founders, freedom, tyranny, safety, and etc, etc. Rather than focusing on the organizational and logistic side of governance the emotional side is highlighted because it is more nebulous and unclear. Reference police proceedures and the counter is that Officers lives are threaten and that they have the right to make it homes to their families. Talk about guns in any context and the counter is flag waving and cries of FREEDOM!!!

 

We don't want to admit as a nation that racism is real or that guns can be a problem so we use insincere arguments to boil situations down to single dimensional formalities. In the case of Tamir Rice; could the officers have thought the that the toy gun was real, if yes, than any and all force is authorized. It becomes that simple.

[imatfaal]

It is an interesting and subtle jurisprudential point as to whether an opinion informed by racism constitutes a valid test for reasonability in cases such as these - surely in any self-respecting egalitarian modern state the answer should be a resounding no; but the response of the authorities, politicians, and jurors (albeit in the mad arena of the grand jury) seems to be that allowing one's perceptions to be tainted with bigoted racial preconceptions is an acceptable behaviour in the course of deciding whether one's life is in danger.

 

Mangling legal aphorisms - but it seems that the man on the clapham omnibus in America is now allowed to be a Racist. Such a man should never be a cop (or armed with a firearm - however that's a whole new thread) - but evidence tends to show that a not insignificant portion of police in the USA are racists; thus their honestly held (offensive but honestly and deeply held) opinions areseemingly taken into account by colleagues, the authorities, and the public when judging their actions. How else could they have come to the decision that they did?

[Ten oz]

@ imatfaal, I actually think certian laws are bias/racially based and being put in a position to enforce such laws over time corrupts many otherwise good police officers.