Dylann Roof

[Harold Squared]

 

Not treating this as an isolated incident and writing it off to mental illness would be a huge start.

A well-established case for the defense, that. Though I confess I do not know how he will plead.

 

Is this a case that will put all of society on trial, do you think?

Edited June 22, 2015 by Harold Squared

[dimreepr]

Is this a case that will put all of society on trial, do you think?

 

 

 

Not all of society but in a perfect world the NRA would also stand accused.

[CEngelbrecht]

Is this a case that will put all of society on trial, do you think?

 

Not all of society but in a perfect world the NRA would also stand accused.

 

Or human nature, for that matter.

 

http://www.lowtechcombat.com/2014/11/chimp-vs-chimp-violence-and-insights.html

"Young men are prone to violence and disorder; America attracted unusually large numbers of young men; therefore America, or at any rate that part of it to which the surplus young men gravitated, was a more violent and disorderly place. Wherever and whenever young men have appeared in disproportionate numbers, there has been a disproportionate likelihood of trouble."

- David Courtwright, "Violent Land"

 

Edited June 22, 2015 by CEngelbrecht

[dimreepr]

 

Or human nature, for that matter.

 

http://www.lowtechcombat.com/2014/11/chimp-vs-chimp-violence-and-insights.html

 

 

Given that insight and the average age of those leading the NRA, surely, that just compounds their guilt?

[waitforufo]

 

Exactly, for example the confederate flag is STILL waving at full staff in Charleston. Hatred does not appear in a vacuum, thank you. Dylann is only nominally an adult, he seems to be socially retarded.

 

"What would you like for your 21st birthday, son? Oh, you want a handgun? Sure, but here is how we are going to do this. We will give you the money to buy it so it will be in your name, that way we are not responsible for what you do with it, you loner-weirdo."

Dylann is an adult. Well beyond the age of reason. Adults make there own decisions. I see no reason to blame other people.

 

Straw purchasing of firearms is illegal. Dylann's parents were simply following the law.

[CEngelbrecht]

"What would you like for your 21st birthday, son? Oh, you want a handgun? Sure, but here is how we are going to do this. We will give you the money to buy it so it will be in your name, that way we are not responsible for what you do with it, you loner-weirdo."

 

I'm not entirely sure, the parents knew he used the money they gave him to buy a gun. It's been reported differently in the media.

 

 

Exactly, for example the confederate flag is STILL waving at full staff in Charleston. Hatred does not appear in a vacuum, thank you. Dylann is only nominally an adult, he seems to be socially retarded.

 

That is so grotesque, that the stars and bars is still being used officially. You know where you can stick your babble about state's rights and symbols of "our way of life." Translated, "You will never stop our nigger hating culture, yankees!" It is outrageous that this can actually still happen seven and a half score years overdue. Why don't you just urinate on the dead church goers, it's faster.

Take down that American swastika now!!!

 

Edited June 22, 2015 by CEngelbrecht

[overtone]

Where I come from, blaming something on the effects of an insular culture of violence prone racial bigots, with its obsession with firearms for protection against said inferior race and its governmental protectors

 

is not the same thing as blaming it on "society" or "human nature".

 

But you guys know your society and its human nature better than I do, I guess.

Edited June 23, 2015 by overtone

[CEngelbrecht]

Where I come from, blaming something on the effects of an insular culture of violence prone racial bigots, with its obsession with firearms for protection against said inferior race and its governmental protectors

 

is not the same thing as blaming it on "society" or "human nature".

 

But you guys know your society and its human nature better than I do, I guess.

 

It's just too flimsy to keep talking about random good and evil, 'cause that doesn't exist outside the human mind. That's why soldiers are too easy to lure into doing evil, when they're supposed to do good for the benefit of society, 'cause the core problem are ill defined. If you want to fight all that for the balance of society, which is very admirable and cultures have been trying to do so since at least the first city states via religions and standards, you first have to define the actual cause of the problem.

This kid was a maniac racist, A) because racism stems from an inherent fear of predators in the human ape, and B) because male human beings are already inherently violent in the fight for the fertile females, and C) BECAUSE THAT BLOODY FLAG IS STILL UP!!! Comparitively, at least the Germans have made all public use of the Swastika illegal, even from local versions of Hollywood movie posters. The Swastika for millenia was just a bloody solar symbol, but now it's an eternal symbol of hate, racism and madness. And so is the stars and bars, keep up already! Otherwise that boy wouldn't have waived with it on that gun-slash-masturbation photo above. That it's hasn't yet been removed from usage after 150 bloody years only sends the message to such a sick boy, that it's okay to still hate random people for no other reason than that of pigment. And it also sends the message, that nigger haters still dominate the corridors of power in the states in question.

 

I have a simple initiative: Anyone sporting the stars and bars in any shape or form should immediately have their private firearms taken away, and none new can be sold to them. Any gun shop having it on the wall must be immediately shut down. 'Cause they are a luring danger to decent society, a powder keg waiting to explode. That'd be a start.

[Airbrush]

Dylann is an adult. Well beyond the age of reason. Adults make there own decisions. I see no reason to blame other people.

 

 

Interview with a "friend" of Dylann revealed that the 21-year-old was planning "something crazy" and that he had a gun and planned something with it. The friend was so concerned he actually stole the gun from Dylann, but returned it before it was discovered missing. Did this "friend" of Dylann reveal this to the parents along with the other ominous indications? If not, that is a sad thing to not let everyone involved with this reclusive youngster with his confederate flags and cut and pasted racist rants online, that he was on the war path. That is a negligence of some sort, but not yet a crime, but they don't look like victims to me, only enablers.

 

If the family and friends of Dylann got together and shared information about the boy, they might have gotten on his case and defused the ticking time bomb.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Airbrush

[waitforufo]

 

That is a negligence of some sort, but not yet a crime, but they don't look like victims to me, only enablers.

 

If the family and friends of Dylann got together and shared information about the boy, they might have gotten on his case and defused the ticking time bomb.

No one is to blame but Dylann.

 

There is no end to this blame sharing expressed in many of the posts in this topic. Those negligent enablers have their own negligent enablers until we are all negligent enablers. So I guess we might as well clean and oil Dylann's gun for him and send him on his way. You seem to be saying, it could have been any one of us negligent enablers that went off. This time it just happened to be Dylann. See, I just don't buy into that guilt by association BS. I have never done anything wrong in my life that I wasn't fully aware that it was wrong before I did it. That includes everything I remember from my childhood. I don't think I'm alone on that. I think Dylann fully understood what he was doing was wrong but did it anyway.

 

Dylann Roof walked into a church, was welcomed by the participants of a bible reading group, sat an listened to the meeting for a period of time, and then point blank gunned them down in cold blood. No number of confederate battle flags or civil war memorials made Dylann incapable of understanding cold blooded murder is wrong.

 

No one is to blame but Dylann.

 

Now, if you want to open a topic on eliminating from the public square all vestiges of Democratic Party sponsored racism in the United States, I'm all in favor, but that is not this topic.

Edited June 23, 2015 by waitforufo

[Bill Angel]

No one is to blame but Dylann.

Dylann Roof walked into a church, was welcomed by the participants of a bible reading group, sat an listened to the meeting for a period of time, and then point blank gunned them down in cold blood. No number of confederate battle flags or civil war memorials made Dylann incapable of understanding cold blooded murder is wrong.

 

No one is to blame but Dylann.

 

 

I agree, and I don't believe that the Confederate battle flag ever stood for the type of action that he took. It would have been more appropriate for him to have posed holding a Nazi swastika or Nazi SS banner than a flag of the Confederate military.

[Airbrush]

......I don't believe that the Confederate battle flag ever stood for the type of action that he took. It would have been more appropriate for him to have posed holding a Nazi swastika or Nazi SS banner than a flag of the Confederate military.

 

Your belief is unfounded. The confederate flag always stood for racism, as much as the swastika did. The KKK carried that flag with them as they terrorized and murdered innocent people AFTER the civil war ended. Your comment has no basis in fact.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Airbrush

[iNow]

Different people interpret the flag differently. There is basis in Bill's comments, but that's not the point, IMO. Some people feel the flag represents the power of states rights and with others it reminds them of their ancestry... great grandparents who served honorably, etc. In parallel, though, and for a great many, that same symbol represents hatred, fear, terror, racism, discrimination, and a lack of acceptance into ones own society. Both of these interpretations are entirely valid.

 

That said, positive experiences and associations with the flag are growing smaller and less common by the day while anger and sadness and disgust with the flag grows each day. It's important to see each others perspectives on this. It's also important to do the right thing.

 

Take down the flag, put it in a museum, continue to fly it on your land or in your truck if you want, but not on state grounds. There's too much violent history tied to this symbol for continued recognition by the state in a democratic republic.

 

In sum, we'd all probably be better off in this discussion if we focused more on being decent to one another than on being right.

[Airbrush]

Different people interpret the flag differently. There is basis in Bill's comments, but that's not the point, IMO. Some people feel the flag represents the power of states rights and with others it reminds them of their ancestry... great grandparents who served honorably, etc. In parallel, though, and for a great many, that same symbol represents hatred, fear, terror, racism, discrimination, and a lack of acceptance into ones own society. Both of these interpretations are entirely valid.

 

Those in favor of the confederate flag because it reminds them of their ancestry, great grandparents who served honorably, and whatever noble qualities you can think of (I can't think of any) must ALSO remember that it ALSO has always represented hatred, fear, terror, racism, discrimination, etc. They cannot have one without the other. So it is becoming equivalent to the swastika or using the n word, and cannot stand much longer with the intense scrutiny that flag is now getting, ONLY because of Dylann Roof.

 

Does anyone think that Dylann can get the death penalty? My hope is that he will get life in prison so psychologists can analyze what happened to him for the rest of his life. He is a textbook example. All we have been hearing about is foreign terrorism coming to us, now we must also come to grips with homegrown, domestic terrorism.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Airbrush

[dimreepr]

Life isn’t, and never will be, black and white. Judging others on that basis is to forget your own culpabilities; “those who are without sin cast the first stone.”

 

You may not have killed/murdered anyone but can you honestly say “whatever the circumstance I never would”?

 

Bullies like terrorists or racists aren’t born but made and to judge them without understanding the process that made them is just ignorant and little better than the perpetrator.

 

I would never suggest someone like Dylan shouldn’t be segregated from society, he is clearly very disturbed and dangerous to his fellow citizens, but he does deserve the chance to change his view of life; after all who would blame a dog that was systematically beaten and abused, if it suddenly bit the abuser?

Edited June 24, 2015 by dimreepr

[CEngelbrecht]

 

Both American and European right wing nutballs use both the swastika and the confederate flag for a reason. Somewhere in Germany there is still some old fella from the Afrika Korps dreaming back to the good ol' days of glory and honor, when he flew the swastika on his uniform. "Then I was a winner, then the girls wanted me." When Adolf Hitler designed the red, white and black swastika for his insane racist fantasy, he did so for an inhuman society based on perpetual racism; the pesudoscientific notion, that his ethnicity as a natural fact was superior to that of jews and other "degenerates," that nedded to be weeded out. When W. T. Thompson designed the red, white and blue confederate flag, he did exactly the same; to desperately keep alive a just as inhuman society of perpetual racism; the pesudoscientific notion, that his ethnicity had the natural right to own another, because his was the only decent one. By default. Both are follies, both lost the war, and justice has never been better served. But some refused to acknowledge that defeat. Refused to let go of their sinful culture. Refused to acknowledge, that their way of life was the inferior one. And some still do. Out of sheer pig arrogance. Those people are losers of society looking for an excuse for why it ain't their fault.

 

There is a simple principle in law: You find a "precocious toddler, a fertile octogenarian and a moron in a hurry" when ruling against perpetuities. They are fictional types of people, simply put "the man in the street." And if you would ask them, "Is the confederate cross flag just as much a symbol of hateful racism as the nazi swastika," and the answer runs along the lines of "Yeah, duh!," then it is.

 

No. There is no case, only disgrace. It was an American tragedy that it wasn't eternally outlawed in 1865. That if anything allowed white racism to fester. Take it down, now!

Edited June 24, 2015 by CEngelbrecht

[swansont]

Those in favor of the confederate flag because it reminds them of their ancestry, great grandparents who served honorably, and whatever noble qualities you can think of (I can't think of any) must ALSO remember that it ALSO has always represented hatred, fear, terror, racism, discrimination, etc. They cannot have one without the other. So it is becoming equivalent to the swastika or using the n word, and cannot stand much longer with the intense scrutiny that flag is now getting, ONLY because of Dylann Roof.

 

Right. If people want to have something that honors people for their sacrifice, or represents states' rights, etc. they need a symbol that is not tied in with all of the other "qualities". I don't know what that might be.

 

It's disheartening to see the number of people still defending this, and going so far as to complain about people like Roof "mis-appropriating" the flag (such as Sen Tom Davis). That denies the issue that this is a systemic problem.

Does anyone think that Dylann can get the death penalty? My hope is that he will get life in prison so psychologists can analyze what happened to him for the rest of his life. He is a textbook example. All we have been hearing about is foreign terrorism coming to us, now we must also come to grips with homegrown, domestic terrorism.

 

While no fan of the death penalty, given that this is happening in a state with a pretty strong history of executions, what does it say if they don't seek it?

[Airbrush]

Dylann is an adult. Well beyond the age of reason. Adults make there own decisions. I see no reason to blame other people.

 

Straw purchasing of firearms is illegal. Dylann's parents were simply following the law.

 

How "adult" is he? From what's leaked out already, a 9th grade dropout, unemployed, full time drug user, waving confederate flags, noted as having become isolated by family members, asking suspicious questions in a mall while carrying drugs, arrested twice, and now is a good time for this youngster to have a hand gun.

[CEngelbrecht]

 

While no fan of the death penalty, given that this is happening in a state with a pretty strong history of executions, what does it say if they don't seek it?

 

"Bah. It's just niggers."

 

How "adult" is he? From what's leaked out already, a 9th grade dropout, unemployed, full time drug user, waving confederate flags, noted as having become isolated by family members, asking suspicious questions in a mall while carrying drugs, arrested twice, and now is a good time for this youngster to have a hand gun.

 

And I'm sure his defence will be crocodile tears all over that. "He is a young man with all sorts of hormones bubbling through his system. He was confused and not responsible for his actions and shouldn't die because of it. Look at him, everyone can see that." Translated: "Come on, people. It's just niggers. It's not like he killed somebody important."

 

Be interesting to see if there's any bloody difference between 1955 and 2015 Carolinas.

Edited June 24, 2015 by CEngelbrecht

[Airbrush]

That is gratuitous use of the n word above. Even the context is bad, making you appear to be racist. I'm just saying, it may not remain for long in that form once the moderators see it.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Airbrush

[swansont]

 

How "adult" is he? From what's leaked out already, a 9th grade dropout,

 

You can be tried as an adult if you are in the 9th grade (or even younger), and he's an actual adult.

[Airbrush]

 

While no fan of the death penalty, given that this is happening in a state with a pretty strong history of executions, what does it say if they don't seek it?

 

Of course they should seek the death penalty, but will the jury give it? After more comes out about the kind of guy he was, testimony from his family and friends, people may consider him less an adult. Imagine the science about domestic terrorism we can get from psychoanalyzing Dylann. They should analyze him long term, and make sure he lives a long life in prison so he is always handy for another interview or brain scan, or whatever test using better and better technology.

 

Or they may give him the death penalty, but postpone it for a few decades, same as above to learn as much about him as possible.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Airbrush

[CEngelbrecht]

That is gratuitous use of the n word above. Even the context is bad, making you appear to be racist. I'm just saying, it may not remain for long in that form once the moderators see it.

 

Seriously? I'm the problem here? I think you should be more concerned about the ones not using the word N, then.

 

Edited June 24, 2015 by CEngelbrecht

[Airbrush]

 

Seriously? I'm the problem here? I think you should be more concerned about the ones not using the word N, then.

 

Don't exaggerate, you are not "the problem". I'm only taking issue with your gratuitous use of the N word, twice, not in a very clever manner, not a "teachable moment" like when Obama used the N word recently.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Airbrush

[iNow]

An empassioned take on this whole issue given in Scandal character: http://www.cc.com/video-clips/yb40vk/the-nightly-show-panel---papa-pope-vs--the-confederate-flag