Gees Posted June 29, 2015 Posted June 29, 2015 Dylandrako; There have been some very good posts in this thread, but the posters have been waltzing around the practical realities of this issue. So please consider my following thoughts. I would like to see what peoples opinions on religion and science. Science and religion are in competition with each other, and they are in opposition to each other. Does this mean that there has to be a fight? No. But it does mean that the ideas required to create a confrontation are always in place. So it is my thought that a better understanding of these issues is the best deterrent to a fight and could even promote a mutual understanding and respect between these disciplines. From the organizational perspective; research is expensive and so are charities. Wealthy powerful people will give their money to science for research that will help them to live longer and healthier lives, to improve their businesses, and to gain power. But when these same wealthy powerful people reach an age where they are looking death in the eye, they will take their money and give it to their church in an attempt to pave their way to heaven. (chuckle) Governments will support scientific research that supports the government's position, whether it be for war machines or food production. Then government will shamelessly embrace religion in order to secure its power base and the support of its people. So these practical realities will always make science and religion competitors. Philosophy is fortunate in that it requires little money to do philosophy -- a comfortable chair, a few books, the occasional meal, and a quiet place to contemplate. From the disciplines' perspective; science and religion are in opposition in their methodologies and goals. If you find a 100 year old science book, a 50 year old science book, and a current science book on the same subject, you will most often find changes in them. This is because science is always learning, challenging, and growing, so it must continually adapt to new ideas. If science did not adapt to new ideas, then it would have to stop growing, and it would have to believe and have faith in the current ideas with no thought to learning more. This would destroy science. Religion studies emotion, and emotion does not like change, which is why religious dogma is often hundreds or even thousands of years old. Nor does emotion adapt well. Consider that emotional shock or emotional trauma can kill us, can cause Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and can cause mental problems that are lifelong. These examples may seem extreme, but it should be noted that the only reason that these things happen is because there was too much emotional change too fast. When raising a child, if you give it food, warmth, rest, and attention, it should be fine, but if you do this with a different caregiver every day, an infant will most probably die; actually any child under two years may well die. Why? Because they require the stability of an emotional bond to survive their first two years. Emotion works through the sub/unconscious aspect of mind and makes itself known in belief. A child needs to believe that Dad can stop the monster under the bed; a person needs to believe that their family is safe and waiting at home as they drive home from work; a person taking their last breath needs to believe that something besides terror is waiting for them. We all need to believe that we are good people, but when life kicks us in the pants, it can shatter our beliefs. So religion teaches us to have faith; that all things will come back to right. We need this. Religion knows that we need emotional stability and that we can not accept change as fast as some would like, so even if it knows that change is necessary, it doles it out very slowly. It is not uncommon to wait generations to make a small change, because moving any faster would destroy the religion and shatter the beliefs of its people. From the individual perspective, we have all experienced the problem of our head and heart seeming to disagree. It starts in our teens and follows us through our 20's. Many people find resolution to this knowing v feeling dilemma, but some take much longer to work it out. It seems that science (knowing) v religion (feeling) will always be at odds. (chuckle) Gee 1
Dylandrako Posted June 29, 2015 Author Posted June 29, 2015 Dylandrako; There have been some very good posts in this thread, but the posters have been waltzing around the practical realities of this issue. So please consider my following thoughts. Science and religion are in competition with each other, and they are in opposition to each other. Does this mean that there has to be a fight? No. But it does mean that the ideas required to create a confrontation are always in place. So it is my thought that a better understanding of these issues is the best deterrent to a fight and could even promote a mutual understanding and respect between these disciplines. From the organizational perspective; research is expensive and so are charities. Wealthy powerful people will give their money to science for research that will help them to live longer and healthier lives, to improve their businesses, and to gain power. But when these same wealthy powerful people reach an age where they are looking death in the eye, they will take their money and give it to their church in an attempt to pave their way to heaven. (chuckle) Governments will support scientific research that supports the government's position, whether it be for war machines or food production. Then government will shamelessly embrace religion in order to secure its power base and the support of its people. So these practical realities will always make science and religion competitors. Philosophy is fortunate in that it requires little money to do philosophy -- a comfortable chair, a few books, the occasional meal, and a quiet place to contemplate. From the disciplines' perspective; science and religion are in opposition in their methodologies and goals. If you find a 100 year old science book, a 50 year old science book, and a current science book on the same subject, you will most often find changes in them. This is because science is always learning, challenging, and growing, so it must continually adapt to new ideas. If science did not adapt to new ideas, then it would have to stop growing, and it would have to believe and have faith in the current ideas with no thought to learning more. This would destroy science. Religion studies emotion, and emotion does not like change, which is why religious dogma is often hundreds or even thousands of years old. Nor does emotion adapt well. Consider that emotional shock or emotional trauma can kill us, can cause Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and can cause mental problems that are lifelong. These examples may seem extreme, but it should be noted that the only reason that these things happen is because there was too much emotional change too fast. When raising a child, if you give it food, warmth, rest, and attention, it should be fine, but if you do this with a different caregiver every day, an infant will most probably die; actually any child under two years may well die. Why? Because they require the stability of an emotional bond to survive their first two years. Emotion works through the sub/unconscious aspect of mind and makes itself known in belief. A child needs to believe that Dad can stop the monster under the bed; a person needs to believe that their family is safe and waiting at home as they drive home from work; a person taking their last breath needs to believe that something besides terror is waiting for them. We all need to believe that we are good people, but when life kicks us in the pants, it can shatter our beliefs. So religion teaches us to have faith; that all things will come back to right. We need this. Religion knows that we need emotional stability and that we can not accept change as fast as some would like, so even if it knows that change is necessary, it doles it out very slowly. It is not uncommon to wait generations to make a small change, because moving any faster would destroy the religion and shatter the beliefs of its people. From the individual perspective, we have all experienced the problem of our head and heart seeming to disagree. It starts in our teens and follows us through our 20's. Many people find resolution to this knowing v feeling dilemma, but some take much longer to work it out. It seems that science (knowing) v religion (feeling) will always be at odds. (chuckle) Gee (Thumbs up) Especially likes the middle where if you take r science and cause it to stop for whatever reason it will essentially become a religion. To where the person has to believe in it in order to make it "real" again.
Strange Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 Science and religion are in competition with each other, and they are in opposition to each other. Sometimes. Not always. And, obviously, they don't need to be. Especially likes the middle where if you take r science and cause it to stop for whatever reason it will essentially become a religion. Religion also changes over time as people's understanding of the world changes. Some changes in religious doctrine are even driven by science. Shock!
Commander Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 Science is above all Religions ! God is supposed to be above all Religions and beyond the comprehension of any Religion or Science ! God has the Power to Create Science and Nature and its courses including Laws of Physics and Theories ! God is the Super Operating System of the Universe which is a System of Micro and Macro Systems, living or inanimate !
Phi for All Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 Science is above all Religions ! God is supposed to be above all Religions and beyond the comprehension of any Religion or Science ! God has the Power to Create Science and Nature and its courses including Laws of Physics and Theories ! God is the Super Operating System of the Universe which is a System of Micro and Macro Systems, living or inanimate ! HEY! When you're discussing something with a group of people, what would you do if one of them suddenly blurted out such a preachy, soapboxing statement like this? You can't discuss it with them, since they're so adamant about it they don't even seem to listen. You assume so much about something few people know anything for sure about. THAT'S why soapboxing is against our rules. We can't talk to you when you're like this.
dimreepr Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 God is supposed to be above all Religions and beyond the comprehension of any Religion or Science ! Then what's the point of religion?
Commander Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 Then what's the point of religion? Well Religion is like a KEY attempting to open a LOCK which is tough to open but no harm in trying !
Strange Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 Science is above all Religions ! God is supposed to be above all Religions and beyond the comprehension of any Religion or Science ! God has the Power to Create Science and Nature and its courses including Laws of Physics and Theories ! God is the Super Operating System of the Universe which is a System of Micro and Macro Systems, living or inanimate ! Any evidence for any of this?
Commander Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) Any evidence for any of this? My response deleted after reading Phi's Post ! Sorry Strange you need to work it out yourself ! Well on second thoughts I give it again here : >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We Human Species are ALIVE AND KICKING on Mother Earth which is the only known Planet supporting LIFE [known to us] ! We are the UNCROWNED KING SPECIES with no visible Challenge to our Supremacy among the Species of the Earth ! Yet, we all live because of the Mercy Of the POWERS BEYOND OUR CONTROL ! We fail miserably in many aspects of Life which are under our own control and suffer CONFLICTS, WARS , POVERTY etc and WE HAVE BLISSFULLY GIVEN UP EFFORTS TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES WHOLESOMELY ! Of Course WE HAVE TAKEN GIANTS STEPS and MADE ENORMOUS PROGRESS through SCIENTIFIC PURSUIT ALONE which can not be denied ! But still we have a LONG WAY TO GO before Understanding everything while Controlling Everything is ALWAYS BEYOND EVEN SCIENTIFIC IMAGINATION ! We have made some Progress in Controlling WHAT WE EAT [safe Food] and WHAT WE DRINK [safe Water - We simply don't drink from a Pool say Swimming Pool with visible Contamination unlike other Animals] and We fight Natural Disasters and Forces AS BEST AS WE COULD ! However WE ALL STILL BREATHE THE AMBIENT AIR [ without any Question or asking for evidence ] even though we can see right in front of us ALL POSSIBLE CONTAMINATION , even Animals Frolicking and doing all sorts of things INTO THE SAME AMBIENT AIR and WITH NO FEAR OR FAVOUR we SIMPLY BREATHE THAT AIR and not bother about the Viruses and Harmful Bacteria and Matter which might be there ! This seems to be our ACCEPTED FREEDOM OF LIFE in this Universe. There may be Space Suits in Space explorations and Air Purifiers for some but ALL OF US INCLUDING SCIENTISTS [without caring to ensure evidence of total safety] just simply breathe ! Therefore WE ALL SIMPLY LIVE BY FAITH ! HEY! When you're discussing something with a group of people, what would you do if one of them suddenly blurted out such a preachy, soapboxing statement like this? You can't discuss it with them, since they're so adamant about it they don't even seem to listen. You assume so much about something few people know anything for sure about. THAT'S why soapboxing is against our rules. We can't talk to you when you're like this. Hi Phi, I just saw your post. I am sorry I saw it later than the later posts. Yes, I understand your points and will try and live up to these standards. I have modified my Pure Scientific Thinking into a God Seeking approach with God's Interference in my own Personal Life. That is why I hardly post anything here unless I feel impelled by God. Now and then something interests me and I respond there too [Puzzles] Soapboxing, what is that ? Maybe I need to look that up on the FAQ pages. Edited August 17, 2015 by Commander
Strange Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 Well Religion is like a KEY attempting to open a LOCK which is tough to open but no harm in trying ! It appears that science is a much better key to understanding the universe as it produces useful results (i.e. results that can actually be turned into practical applications). It also produces testable ideas rather than mere beliefs which lead to childish arguments ("I believe this", "Well, I think you are wrong because I belief this.") 1
Phi for All Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 Soapboxing, what is that ? Maybe I need to look that up on the FAQ pages. In a discussion, a basic premise is that your viewpoint might be sound enough to convince someone it has merit and should be considered. When we talk to people about a subject that offers a perspective that can shade opinion, a reasonable person keeps an open mind. You often discuss religion with others while making it clear that your mind is already made up, that GOD IS THIS, GOD IS THAT, THIS is the WAY things are! This is known as preaching, or soapboxing. Like anyone else discussing religion, you have nothing solid, no evidence that supports your stance more than any others, yet your claims are adamant and assertive, like you're stating Truth. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you seem to be saying there's no way you aren't right. Rational discussion assumes you're willing to be reasonable and listen without automatically dismissing other stances. I don't think it helps anyone's understanding when you treat your viewpoint like plate armor, and everyone else's viewpoints like arrows.
Commander Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 In a discussion, a basic premise is that your viewpoint might be sound enough to convince someone it has merit and should be considered. When we talk to people about a subject that offers a perspective that can shade opinion, a reasonable person keeps an open mind. You often discuss religion with others while making it clear that your mind is already made up, that GOD IS THIS, GOD IS THAT, THIS is the WAY things are! This is known as preaching, or soapboxing. Like anyone else discussing religion, you have nothing solid, no evidence that supports your stance more than any others, yet your claims are adamant and assertive, like you're stating Truth. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you seem to be saying there's no way you aren't right. Rational discussion assumes you're willing to be reasonable and listen without automatically dismissing other stances. I don't think it helps anyone's understanding when you treat your viewpoint like plate armor, and everyone else's viewpoints like arrows. OK Interesting to note you have this on your signature : God does have to keep the miracles going, or no one would believe that He is real.
dimreepr Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 OK Interesting to note you have this on your signature : God does have to keep the miracles going, or no one would believe that He is real. Not really, just ask yourself, when was god’s last miracle?
Commander Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 Not really, just ask yourself, when was god’s last miracle? Well in my case, what I have put up on my profile URL and many more since then ! Surrender all your Reactions to God and He will direct your Actions !
dimreepr Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 When he replaces an amputees severed arm/leg then I'll believe, otherwise it's just coincidence or medicine.
Strange Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 OK Interesting to note you have this on your signature : God does have to keep the miracles going, or no one would believe that He is real. I think it is intended to be irony.
Phi for All Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 OK Interesting to note you have this on your signature : God does have to keep the miracles going, or no one would believe that He is real. In a Red Herring sort of way, or did you have something specific in mind?
Commander Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 When he replaces an amputees severed arm/leg then I'll believe, otherwise it's just coincidence or medicine. He can do anything but will do it in the Scientific way ! He makes you and me and every Scientist to think logically and create a new product. In fact God creates that product as we are His Creation. Even if we create a new Life Form and Species which can survive with a different set of ingredients instead of Water, Oxygen etc MAN can not claim Creating it as he himself has been created to create his invention. We are all Instruments in God's Hands and we execute His Powers. If there is a Wound He can let it HEAL or FESTER ON according to his decision though we give credit to the facilitating doctor / medicine. He decides on us WHETHER WE BELIEVE IN HIM OR NOT ! Therefore, He is capable of listening to our requests and responding to it !
Strange Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 He can do anything but will do it in the Scientific way ! He makes you and me and every Scientist to think logically and create a new product. In fact God creates that product as we are His Creation. Even if we create a new Life Form and Species which can survive with a different set of ingredients instead of Water, Oxygen etc MAN can not claim Creating it as he himself has been created to create his invention. We are all Instruments in God's Hands and we execute His Powers. If there is a Wound He can let it HEAL or FESTER ON according to his decision though we give credit to the facilitating doctor / medicine. So it is exactly the same as if he doesn't exist. He decides on us WHETHER WE BELIEVE IN HIM OR NOT ! So it is his fault I don't believe in him. Shame on him.
Commander Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 So it is exactly the same as if he doesn't exist. So it is his fault I don't believe in him. Shame on him. No, it will not exist or be so unless HE allows that. Will the Robot I created need to believe in me ?
Strange Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 No, it will not exist or be so unless HE allows that. How do we know that? Will the Robot I created need to believe in me ? Only if you are very insecure, I suppose.
36grit Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 for me, Religion is the spiritual truth. It is ancient, deep, and poetic. Science is the physical truth, It is logical, statistical, and literal. To ask, Is God real? Is to ponder, Am I a beast?
Lyudmilascience Posted April 5, 2016 Posted April 5, 2016 I think that science and religion are not comparable therfore there should be no fight. i dont believe in any religion i dint believe it tries to seek the truth it just tries to satisfy peoples wants to become better or get help from god. it makes them feel better thats all it does otherwise so many more people would not believe in the bible and write an updated version of it. i am only talking about the fundamentalists that believe this word for word, im not talking about anyone who believes in the bible.
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