Classes this Summer

[budullewraagh]

i was accepted by harvard to take summer classes awhile back and i've been considering which class to take;

 

CHEM S-1ab General Chemistry (30877)

James E. Davis and Gregg Tucci

(8 units: UN) M-F 10:45 am-1 pm. Three required 2-hour laboratories, two 1.5-hour discussion sections, and two 2-hour review sessions per week to be arranged.

 

or

 

CHEM S-20ab Organic Chemistry (30609)

Garry Procter

(8 units: UN) M-F 8:30-10:30 am. Required sections T, W, Th, F 10:45 am-12:15 pm, one laboratory session 1-6 pm and one laboratory session 6-11 pm on different days (except Friday). Weekly review sessions F 2-4 pm.

Harvard College students see additional information.

 

This course is an intensive, comprehensive introduction to the chemistry of carbon and its importance to biological molecules. Topics include current ideas of bonding and structure, major reaction mechanisms and pathways, a discussion of the analytical tools used to determine the structure and stereochemistry of organic compounds (such as infrared and NMR spectroscopy), and some of the chemistry of amino acids, peptides, carbohydrates, and nucleic acids. This course fulfills the requirement of two semesters of organic chemistry for entrance to medical school. Prerequisite: Two semesters of general chemistry or equivalent, with satisfactory grades. Students without adequate background may not be able to keep up with the course. Not recommended for high school students.

 

This is a comprehensive survey of chemistry for the general student that emphasizes the principles underlying the formation and interaction of chemical substances: stoichiometry, states of matter, thermochemistry, atomic and molecular structure, intermolecular forces, solutions, thermodynamics, kinetics, chemical equilibrium, acids and bases, electrochemistry, and environmental chemistry. This course fulfills the requirement of two semesters of inorganic chemistry for entrance to medical school. Prerequisites: High school algebra and chemistry.

 

i am currently a junior in high school and wanted to take AP chem this year, but couldn't due to scheduling difficulties. so instead i'm taking AP biology and AP physics and studying for the AP chem exam, to be taken this may. next year i'll actually take the class. i took a practice AP chem exam and comfortably scored a 5 before reviewing, so i think it's safe to say that i have enough credits to place out of any freshman university chem class.

 

i want to get as much of an advanced knowledge of chemistry as possible, as soon as possible, but i also don't want to set myself up for failure. i emailed the professor who teaches this class and he said:

 

Hi Clark,

 

The class, Chem S- 20ab is an extremely intensive (absolute minimum of 50 hours per week) organic chemistry course that covers all the material that would normally be covered in two semesters here at Harvard. Primarily it is taken by premed students, who require (at least) two semesters of organic chemistry to apply to medical school. It assumes a thorough knowledge of and familiarity with the topics that would be covered in a college level general chemistry course, and some quantum mechanics too. It really could not be further from a class that is suitable for high school students - which is why all such students are advised so strongly against taking it.

 

While the material is challenging, the most challenging aspect of the course is the sheer pace. There is absolutely no chance to take a little time to get the more complex topics and concepts (or indeed to follow some "interesting side-topics". Being a few days behind is not an option (if you want a reasonable grade in the course). This particularly demanding as organic chemistry is highly "cumulative". You need constantly to apply concepts and facts that were covered previously, in order to understand new material. Missing a bit and covering it later is just not possible.

 

Also, to be honest, I would not really recommend the course to someone who is genuinely interested in chemistry. It goes too fast. For example, myself, I would not have liked to take it! I would (and did) much prefer to spend some time studying the subject - taking the opportunity to follow up on those "interesting side-topics".

 

Finally, we do get the occasional high school students on the course, who all come with excellent track records, and a burning desire to take the course. It is our experience that they either do pretty well, or totally bomb out.

 

One last thought - if you are considering taking the course and using it for credit at a college (or colleges) of your choice it would be wise to check with the college(s) that the course would be accepted for credit.

 

I have attached the syllabus from last year - it will be pretty much the same this year!

 

Hope all this helps you with your decision.

 

Regards,

 

Garry Procter

 

 

 

i want to challenge myself and experience a more advanced class, but i don't want to set myself up for a hellish summer. can anyone provide insight?

S20ab-2004-syllabusWWW.pdf

[jdurg]

The only advice I can give about college is that you should do what is most economically affordable. I know this probably won't be of much help to you in this instance, but when going to college don't take out a ton of loans to afford the place when you can get an equal education at a MUCH cheaper school. I turned down a nearly full scholarship to my state's school here to go to a VERY expensive, small private college. It screwed me up severely and I'm still in debt because of it. I'll probably be in debt for the rest of my life due to that stupid decision.

[blike]

Congrats on getting a seat in those classes at Harvard. Will it give you a leg up in admission to the university when you apply?

 

Organic Chemistry is the class that separates the men from the boys, in my experience. Even as a two semester course it was very intensive. It's the class that premeds dread taking, because it can make or break you. It might be different for you. You come from a strong chemistry background, and so it might be easier for you to understand. Chemistry has never been my strongpoint, and although I did well in both classes, it was a lot of work. Lots of studying through the weekend, late night studying, and outside resources. The labs were not as hard, but they required a lot of outside class time to prepare and to write lab reports.

 

I can't imagine both organic 1 and organic 2 compacted into one summer. It will definitely require a lot of your time. It's very different from General Chemistry. You definitely don't want to set yourself up for failure. However, you understand general chemistry better now than I did when I entered organic chemistry, and thus I think you have the capacity to succeed. The question is whether you have the drive and the will, at this point. It's not a bad thing if you don't; you're still a high school student. Nonetheless, you will have to work hard.

[dan19_83]

that looks like one of the most intensive courses i've ever seen!

The professor that wrote back to you is right though, there is lots of work ahead of you. I think your nearly going to have to treat it like a full time job.

 

However the amount of topics that he says he is going to cover in a short space of time seems to mean that he won't be going into one specific organic chemistry topic in great detail so the course should be passable. Only with some blood sweat and tears though!!

[blike]

However the amount of topics that he says he is going to cover in a short space of time seems to mean that he won't be going into one specific organic chemistry topic in great detail so the course should be passable.

True. But since it counts as a medical school prerequisite, he probably won't leave much out.

[Skye]

Should be fine, just keep up with the work and don't get distracted by the older women

[budullewraagh]

thanks for your input; i really appreciate it.

 

to answer your question, blike, this class probably won't help me that much with admissions unless i get a recommendation from the professor, which i believe i can do.

 

anyway, i guess i have quite a bunch of reading to do.

[BenSon]

Mate, that syllabus looks awsome...I would say go for it If your worried you might "crash and burn" which would suck...It would be a waste but what do you stand to lose? It might be tough couple of weeks if your up to it I say do it. Good luck

Also what are AP classes? Im not very familiar with the American school system.

 

~Scott

[budullewraagh]

AP classes are like university classes, but you can take them in high school. to get university credit, you take the AP (advanced placement) exam. if you get a 5 (highest score possible), you should receive credit anywhere. most schools give you credit if you get a 4. the only schools that give you credit with a 3 (lowest passing grade) are the poorer schools.

 

what i have to lose is a few thousand dollars:\

but i'm going to email the professor again. i think i'll take the class, as i already have a good understanding of at the very least half of the topics covered

[dan19_83]

True. But since it counts as a medical school prerequisite, he probably won't leave much out.

 

 

I agree with you there blike but I think this professor is going to have to talk 5 words a second to get the whole thing covered!!

 

definitly e-mail him again and be sure of what your getting yourself into! You don't want to come out of the place thinking you've wasted your time and money. However I don't think that will happen.

 

Anyway you'll have no problems passing the module with SFN here to help you! da da da daaaa, scienceforums to the rescue!!

[budullewraagh]

haha it's good to know i have the lot of you on call

[blike]

i think i'll take the class, as i already have a good understanding of at the very least half of the topics covered

I think you'll enjoy it, and I really think you'll excel in it. The best advice I can give you is to not let yourself fall behind in the class, especially in a summer class. Make a study schedule and stick to it. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Looks like they have a weekly review session, which is what my university does. Those are really helpful if you go to them. Also, do as many problems as you can get your hands on. I went to the book store and did practice problems in other organic textbooks. There's a book out that claims it has every time of organic problem you'll ever see in an undergraduate course. Definitely look into that. I didn't buy it, but I did some problems out of it at the bookstore. Good luck!

[budullewraagh]

interesting. do you have any information about this book? (title, author, publisher maybe?)

[BenSon]

what i have to lose is a few thousand dollars:\

 

Yeah that would suck Your school system seems to make more sense then ours They let you excell in the subjects you want. Here i can't take more then 2 units of chem and physics and forget about biology three sciences not at my shithouse schol

 

~Scott

[budullewraagh]

well, this has nothing to do with public education. not so many people take college classes before they graduate from high school anyway. anyway, im sure you could do the same, either in australia or abroad

[BenSon]

There are some universtity courses available but science is very limited. Universities and schools seem very reluctant to help organise it they are pretty much of the mindset just put all your time and effort into getting a good UAI then go to Uni...This is alright for people who have diverse skills as I said before there are not many choices at my school and if you do one subject you can't do several others. So you have to have a mix of many different subjects in you can't lets say just focus on science or just on History subjects, but a mix of all of them. So for people like me I have to do well in science subjects (which i can handle) and others that im not very good at this makes getting into Uni more dificult even though I could handle a science based course and not a economics one for example.

 

~Scott

[jdurg]

With the sciences, I think a lot of that is because you really need to work in the lab as well as in the lecture hall to get the full grasp of the material. If the student is under 18, then the University has to go through a lot more effort to get all of the liability release forms and permissions to allow the "minor" to work in the labs with all those chemicals. It's basically a CYA maneuver from the college. They don't have to worry about someone getting hurt in a literature class, but in an organic chemistry lab they sure do. (Even when you're 18+ you have to sign a bunch of forms before taking your chem labs.)