Gardens On The Moon

[CharonY]

Actually, the whole discussion has ignored the point that photosynthesis does not happen in a vacuum. You require a living organism to be able to conduct PS. Thus, you do not only need water and CO2, but also all the other macro and micro-nutrients. Some may be a available on the moon (though I am not sure about bioavailability) but you would have to transport significant amounts of nitrogen and other unavailable compounds to the moon, too. This further renders the whole idea even less feasible. What again, is the goal/benefit of this project? Terraforming the moon?

[Harold Squared]

 

"To date, no nuclear thermal rocket has flown"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_thermal_rocket

Thank you for the link, sir. As said link reveals, various models of such devices have been not only been designed, but built and tested, something which cannot be said for more speculative space drives such as antimatter rockets.

[Endy0816]

You could probably pull photosynthesis off artificially. Has to be catalyst based considering the temperatures that would be otherwise involved.

 

...searching...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_photosynthesis#Current_research

 

yeah, looks like research is moving along at a decent enough rate.

[Harold Squared]

Actually, the whole discussion has ignored the point that photosynthesis does not happen in a vacuum. You require a living organism to be able to conduct PS. Thus, you do not only need water and CO2, but also all the other macro and micro-nutrients. Some may be a available on the moon (though I am not sure about bioavailability) but you would have to transport significant amounts of nitrogen and other unavailable compounds to the moon, too. This further renders the whole idea even less feasible. What again, is the goal/benefit of this project? Terraforming the moon?

Eventually terraforming the Moon may be a possibility, but to begin with it might be more modest to construct a biosphere, more or less self sustaining, as a refuge and recreational facility for persons working on the Lunar surface. All food raised in space represents a cost savings versus transporting an equivalent mass of food off Earth, as well. Astronauts have documented the morale benefits of being in the presence of living plants on various missions. You are quite correct that nitrogen and other elements will be necessary, but at least in the case of nitrogen some can be spared from Earth as it is our most abundant atmospheric gas.

 

Thank you both for responding, gentlemen.

 

I think in the beginning it would be best to start with common terrestrial food plants of a perishable nature, lettuce, raspberries, that sort of thing, plus the soil bacteria needed to enable them to thrive. Eventually pollination will become a problem and a strain of stingless bees will need to be introduced as the number and variety of plants introduced progresses. Certain modifications to the plant genomes will suggest themselves in time, leading to a distinct Lunar biota.

You could probably pull photosynthesis off artificially. Has to be catalyst based considering the temperatures that would be otherwise involved.

 

...searching...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_photosynthesis#Current_research

 

yeah, looks like research is moving along at a decent enough rate.

A most interesting link, thank you. Such research may very well help us anticipate the presence of life elsewhere in space.

[swansont]

Thank you for the link, sir. As said link reveals, various models of such devices have been not only been designed, but built and tested, something which cannot be said for more speculative space drives such as antimatter rockets.

 

I said one has not flown. There's a lot of ground (as it were) between testing and flying.

 

You made a claim that one could make the trip in a day, and yet there is no analysis to back this up. The rockets described in the link produce less thrust than their counterparts in the Saturn V rocket, so how is it that you'd get there 3x faster?

[CharonY]

So the scope is just having a small sustainable biodome on the Moon? This seems to be quite a different scope than outlined in OP (especially as carbon sequestration will be negligible).

Even so, this is going to be tricky, as failed attempts on Earth have demonstrated, assuming that self-sustainability is the goal. If not, it will still be dependent on steady (and costly) supply from Earth.

[Harold Squared]

 

I said one has not flown. There's a lot of ground (as it were) between testing and flying.

 

You made a claim that one could make the trip in a day, and yet there is no analysis to back this up. The rockets described in the link produce less thrust than their counterparts in the Saturn V rocket, so how is it that you'd get there 3x faster?

Agreed, sir. It will be of great interest to us both to see such devices operating as designed, I am sure.

 

To answer your most intelligent and topical question, I hope you will bear with me as I direct you to the ResearchGate article "Nuclear Thermal Rocket(NTR) Propulsion With a Kick: The LOX Augmented NTR Concept" by S.K. Borowski

 

A reusable vehicle with such capabilities would be a tremendous asset to Lunar exploration and development, I should think. As usual, the toughest bit is getting into Earth orbit.

So the scope is just having a small sustainable biodome on the Moon? This seems to be quite a different scope than outlined in OP (especially as carbon sequestration will be negligible).

Even so, this is going to be tricky, as failed attempts on Earth have demonstrated, assuming that self-sustainability is the goal. If not, it will still be dependent on steady (and costly) supply from Earth.

Indeed. Total volume of carbon would be small, but very effectively sequestered from Earth. In order to develop space resources, such biospheres must be well understood. As the Moon is convenient for evacuation purposes it would make an excellent laboratory site.

 

Perhaps a small installation tended by teleoperated machinery would be a good start. Obviously food plants would be a top priority but many such plants are pleasing to the eye as well as the palate, such as ginger and nasturtiums.

[Moontanman]

Take off your shoes and you will have another ten digits at your service. Back in the sixties chemical rockets went to the Moon and nuclear rocket engines were built and proven to work. Why they were not put to good use is a political rather than a technical question.

 

How have you been, it is nice to see you again, my most acerbic friend.

Last time I checked, two oxygen atoms outweighed one carbon atom. And there's that word again, "significant". What would you define it as?

 

Again, your interest is most welcome.

 

 

Significant:

 

sig·nif·i·cant

siɡˈnifikənt/

adjective

1. 1.

   sufficiently great or important to be worthy of attention; noteworthy.

   "a significant increase in sales"

   synonyms: notable, noteworthy, worthy of attention, remarkable, important, of importance, of consequence, signal; More
2. 2.

   having a particular meaning; indicative of something.

   "in times of stress her dreams seemed to her especially significant"

[Harold Squared]

I had that coming. What I SHOULD have asked was "what quantity would you consider significant?"

 

Since we are going to establish life on a barren world, one could argue that a few grams of pond scum are tremendously significant.

 

What I have in mind is more sort of a kitchen garden crossed with a park. The Moon's proximity means that it is likely to be a major destination for space tourism and this could be a contributing attraction, plus a welcome amenity for Lunar workers.

[Moontanman]

I had that coming. What I SHOULD have asked was "what quantity would you consider significant?"

 

Since we are going to establish life on a barren world, one could argue that a few grams of pond scum are tremendously significant.

 

What I have in mind is more sort of a kitchen garden crossed with a park. The Moon's proximity means that it is likely to be a major destination for space tourism and this could be a contributing attraction, plus a welcome amenity for Lunar workers.

I thin posts #8 and #12 pretty much sums it up...

[Acme]

I see a problem inasmuch as terrestrial plants are accustomed to circadian light/darkness and the Moon's light/darkness is monthly. Not insurmountable using shades to darken and electric light to lighten, but a significant addition of resources.

[Harold Squared]

I see a problem inasmuch as terrestrial plants are accustomed to circadian light/darkness and the Moon's light/darkness is monthly. Not insurmountable using shades to darken and electric light to lighten, but a significant addition of resources.

Yes, but a simple reflector correctly placed would be all we needed. The idea is a "statite", so called because instead of orbiting in the customary fashion it hovers over the pole, where light pressure balances gravitational attraction. An induced wobble would cause the reflected rays to illuminate the poles in any pattern desired. The poles of the Moon appear to be relatively rich in water ice, another good reason to select this region.

 

Thank you for the feedback.

 

 

I'd be willing to bet that there is not enough uranium in the Earth's crust to move a significant amount of CO2 to the moon...

This is an interesting thought experiment and the question of isotopes immediately becomes relevant. Obviously the mass of carbon isotopes should be minimized.

[Harold Squared]

Really, the subject of how much uranium exists on the planet and what use it would best be put to is a separate topic.