What Is Americas Biggest Problem?

[imatfaal]

!

Moderator Note

 

OK Guys - no more talk on conspiracy theories please.

Scary Truth - please keep posts based on reasonably accepted/checkable facts; hidden truths, secret governments, and shadowy organisations are (by their nature) not discussable in these terms. There are many sites to discuss these ideas - this forum as a whole is not one of them; even in the non-science fora we insist on members being able to back up claims with normally accessible information.

 

No need to respond to this moderation. Report the post if you think it is unfair.

 

was that ok?
I think I managed to stop the truth coming out...
Let me know if you need to bring in the black helicopters...
hail hydra!

[tar]

I quit my job back in February, without a plan. I thought my intelligence and problem solving skill and my character and bearing that had served employers well since I was eighteen would continue to be evident. I did not consider that I was over 40 and not a prime hiring candidate because of it. I am still looking for a position, and being 61 does not make employers jump at me as a candidate. Perhaps I have lost a few steps, perhaps I am not up on the latest languages and programs, perhaps I am too close to retirement for people to invest in me. What ever, it does not matter that discrimination is illegal, if based on age, it matters that I am not a prime candidate and its up to me to remove the objections. To become a prime candidate. To have the skills and desire and commitment to fill a particular job, with enough confidence that the employer will know I can do the job, that I will be a pleasure to work with, and that I will be sticking around for a good amount of time. A young black man has a leg up on me, because they are young. If a young intelligent black man, who knows their stuff and is a reliable worker, comes out of college with skills and abilities equal to or greater than mine, and goes for the same job I am going for, his youth over my age, will win out. The whiteness of my skin and the blackness of his will not be a factor.

[Delta1212]

I quit my job back in February, without a plan. I thought my intelligence and problem solving skill and my character and bearing that had served employers well since I was eighteen would continue to be evident. I did not consider that I was over 40 and not a prime hiring candidate because of it. I am still looking for a position, and being 61 does not make employers jump at me as a candidate. Perhaps I have lost a few steps, perhaps I am not up on the latest languages and programs, perhaps I am too close to retirement for people to invest in me. What ever, it does not matter that discrimination is illegal, if based on age, it matters that I am not a prime candidate and its up to me to remove the objections. To become a prime candidate. To have the skills and desire and commitment to fill a particular job, with enough confidence that the employer will know I can do the job, that I will be a pleasure to work with, and that I will be sticking around for a good amount of time. A young black man has a leg up on me, because they are young. If a young intelligent black man, who knows their stuff and is a reliable worker, comes out of college with skills and abilities equal to or greater than mine, and goes for the same job I am going for, his youth over my age, will win out. The whiteness of my skin and the blackness of his will not be a factor.

It will when the young white guy beats out both of you for the position, though.

 

Edit: Just to be clear on a few points. I work in a techy field. Through both direct experience and second hand anecdote, I've

Edited October 12, 2015 by Delta1212

[sunshaker]

Wars and invasions are waged on false pretenses, resulting in over a million civilian deaths in Iraq alone -- three million during the Vietnam war. America has become the most distrusted and hated nation on Earth.

 

There's no end in sight.

U.S. Sends Warships to South China Sea in an Apparent Attempt to Kick Off WW III

Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/u-s-russian-proxy-war-heats-syria-u-s-sending-warships-challenge-chinese-territorial-claims-s-china-sea/#GTtQOzU4s2bbIfew.99

For a Nation that took so long to enter world war 11, they certainly are trying to make up for it now. With all these wars going on around the world, are we not already in world war 111?

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/u-s-russian-proxy-war-heats-syria-u-s-sending-warships-challenge-chinese-territorial-claims-s-china-sea/

 

36,000 troops, 200 aircraft & 60 vessels: NATO launches biggest war games in 13 years

https://www.rt.com/news/317564-trident-juncture-nato-drills/

 

Russia crisis: Britain calls for NUCLEAR WAR games

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/469286/Britain-calls-for-nuclear-war-games

 

And so the "game" begins.

Edited October 12, 2015 by sunshaker

[Bill Angel]

I quit my job back in February, without a plan. I thought my intelligence and problem solving skill and my character and bearing that had served employers well since I was eighteen would continue to be evident. I did not consider that I was over 40 and not a prime hiring candidate because of it. I am still looking for a position, and being 61 does not make employers jump at me as a candidate...

My thinking and experiences are somewhat similar to yours. I'm now 67 and started to collect Social Security at 62. I had been doing computer support work as a contractor for the US Department of Defense, something I stopped doing in 2002. I can see that younger people than me have made impressive technical contributions to the defense effort, and have been well paid for it, but I'm still left with the nagging suspicion that their efforts will have turned out to be fruitless in terms of guaranteeing our security, like all those scientists and engineers who contributed their talents during the First World War. Einstein published the General Theory of Relativity in 1915, and hence had something of value to show at that time for his creative efforts, compared to his contemporaries who were struggling to make contributions to the war efforts of England and Germany.

So now I would rather spend time thinking about issues in Cosmology (for free) than get paid to do tech support work for the Department of Defense, or for ANYBODY for that matter.

[overtone]

 

 

Well that is a good nomination, but it is overdone in terms of who is at fault. You are blaming an elite for having ill will and a stupid populace for following them.

No, I am pointing to the Republican Party, its nature, behavior, media influence, and core electoral support, as being a serious and intractable problem for the country. I'm pointing to its forty year ascension as a problem and current predominance in problem mode as a major disaster, the primary cause of our current worst avoidable troubles.

 

In the course of that, I apparently have to describe the nature and behavior of that Party (despite it being publicly about as visible as the grand finale of the 4th of July fireworks), and its media influence (despite the immediate and simultaneous adoption of even the most idiotic "both side" memes by all major media - Trump and Sanders as equivalent demagogues of the "right" and "left" respectively, say), and its core electoral support (despite what we have heard coming from their favored politicians's mouths as professional pandering to them for forty years now, or the demographic and geographic outline of this support).

 

And after that, I apparently have to defend the idea that this is a problem - that this nature, behavior, media influence, and core electorate, has been and is kind of, like, bad for the country. That this situation we have been dealing with, this Party, is a problem at all.

 

At that point I retire from the field. According to that Party at the moment: Trump is first in line for the Presidency. Ben Carson would be in line for VP, second. After that, for Speaker, apparently we await the likes of Louie Gohmert and his buddies in the Freedom Caucus to figure out who they'll let us have as the leader of the Free World.

 

Y'know, I used to live in a country from which I could view the election of costumed, incompetent, strutting, bombastic, silly, obviously corrupt, demagogues to important political office with bemusement - young, new, democracies getting their feet under them, colorful people new to responsible government with entertaining proclivities toward emotional whimsy, all part of the fun of democracy around the globe. It's not as much fun when it's one's own country.

[tar]

Overtone,

 

There are however people like me, that were against the war in Viet Nam, against the military industrial complex, and for John Lennon's Imagine view of the world being better without borders and religion and any Nationalist feelings separating people from people. People like me, who were counter culture, but retained the Protestant work ethic, and the moral code to help ones neighbor, whatever their color and who realized as I grew up and was no longer 18 that other people are as good willed and possess as good judgment as I do, and are Americans or come to America to be free from oppression and to be safe and looked after by their neighbors.

 

As I told you, I was democrat in Essex county when I lived there. My house was broken into twice. I lived next door to a black woman who locked her bedroom door to keep her children from stealing her drugs. My cousin had her pocketbook taken from her on a corner, around the block, on a busy intersection in front of the empty administration building of my college, which later went bankrupt because Connecticut white families would no longer send their daughters into an area were rape and crime were rising along with the increase of blacks in the area. As she yelled at the thief, running down a street with other pedestrians on it, a black man, who could have confronted the thief, instead raised his fist in the black power position and said "right on brother". My father moved out of the area, and later I moved out of the area, in a time period that had a phrase for the moving. "White flight." I was not racist, but I had a young daughter and a pregnant wife and the area was not safe for them, and the school systems were not strong, and had drugs and crime and teen pregnancies and such as a matter of course and I wanted a safer and less crowded and ugly place to raise them. When I moved out here to the Highlands, I have trees and woods, deer and bear and hornets to worry about, and our schools were not without drugs and teen pregnancies and the like, but very little rape and theft and no gun violence. The first election I looked at, I was registered independent and in the primaries you had to vote your party. The democratic slate had no contests, whereas the republican slate had contests. I registered Republican figuring I could partake in the primaries and still vote however I wanted in the elections.

 

I was (earlier) in the Army in Germany during the Iranian crisis when Carter failed to get our people back and Reagan was elected. I remember the night he was elected and I had a panic attack in my sleeping bag when the zipper got stuck and I broke it open. Afraid, like you, of the authoritarian rule, the links to the military industrial complex, the "establishment" that tended to repress free ideas and other than mainstream behavior. But he had the hostages back in no time. Before he was even in office, as I remember, just the fact that Carter was no longer the one Iran would be dealing with, was enough to get them released. I took a train, by myself to Lanstuhl and greeted the hostages upon their return to "freedom".

 

And Reagan helped bring down the Berlin wall.

 

The last 40 years have seen changes that do not sit comfortably with everybody. Some of us, me included did not like to watch our military get reduced and bases closed, that reduced our ability to stand against actors we find are acting contrary to human rights, peace and rule of law.

 

Its odd to me that a Democrat could lob cruise missiles into the Balkans for instance and not be linked to the military industrial complex that built the things.

 

America does not operate from the left or from the right, we operate from the center. We keep each other honest. I can not throw the whole republican party under the bus, as the problem with America, when republicans stand for things I believe in and that I support wholeheartedly. I don't mean the KKK and wife beating, and killing children with Tomahawk missiles, by the way. Its all the good things, you might find on a farm in Virginia, or a house in the suburbs. A father and mother coming home, eating supper with the family and helping the kids with the homework type of scene. The American Dream type of scene that actually exists all over the country. If there are some people who feel that there are challenges to that dream, like drugs in the school, or illegal workers taking their jobs, or ISIL killing Christians on a beach in front of cameras, and they vote for someone who says they want to do something about those threats, it is real protection of our way of life that those people are after. You characterize the situation as the media causing fear and hatred. I for instance came upon some of those same desires without the media's help. My own judgment of how to protect my way of life brought me to hold the values and take the actions, and vote for the people that I do.

 

And for you to say I have been going in the wrong direction for 40 years, because of being a Republican and living in the suburbs, is completely untrue.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. And I would like to know, if you are against the republicans and against the Clintons, and against me, whose side do you figure you are on? Which part of America do you figure supports your way of life?

 

Regards, TAR

Bill Angel,

 

Yeah, but I don't want to be "done" yet. My grandfather worked into his late eighties and worked up until the week that he died. I still have something to contribute and I think for instance that my tendency to rely on human judgment over the decisions of the computerized "system", is a philosophy that should not yet be discarded.

 

In the sixties we didn't trust anybody over 30. Now that I am way past 30 I like to tell the Mark Twain story, how when he was 18 he thought his father was the stupidest wrong minded person in the world, and when Mark Twain was 21 he could not believe how much his father had learned in 3 years.

 

In terms of this thread, I think that men should listen to women and vice-a-versa, democrats to republicans, young to old, rich to poor and so on. The problem with America is not that the other is wrong minded. The problem is that you are wrong minded in the other's eye, and neither party is listening to, or caring about, or realizing how important the other's welfare and happiness is, to their own welfare and happiness.

 

Regards, TAR

Overtone,

 

I was talking to a young man, in the rain, at a tailgate party before the VT vs Pitt game the other week. My daughter is at VT in her fourth of five years toward a PhD working with nano particles toward some advances in diagnostics and drug delivery. She is registered democrat. We had just watched the VT Regimental Band the Highty-Tighties http://www.band.vtcc.vt.edu/ marching in the rain and the ROTC cadets, march by. He, the young man, was Republican, but we agreed that we did not want to see either Trump or Hilary as president. The republican field is weak, but the democratic choice worse.

 

The quote in the link has a president, reviewing the band, in 1902 saying "there goes the Nation's strength".

 

Would you, seeing the band go by, figure now, that they were the Nation's biggest problem? Just wondering.

 

Regards, TAR

Overtone,

 

I am interested, as a thought experiment, to imagine the people, the actual individuals that were marching by Teddy in 1902, and trace their lives imaginarily though. How they registered, how they voted, how they conducted their lives, the sacrifices they made, the things they built, the role they played in making America the place it is. This, to exchange their places with the current cadets marching by. I do not know how those young men and women are registered. I know they are black and white, male and female and care about protecting the American way of life however. And IF some are republicans, I do not consider them as a problem for the country because of their party affiliation. I would instead consider you as being short sighted if you railed against the same folk that are liable to be laying down their lives in the coming years in a foreign desert, to protect our way of life, and their family's way of life,here at home. The business owners and leaders of our future. Democrats of course are vital. My dad is one, my sister, my daughter, but vital too are the republicans. They have been maintaining the place as surely as they have been blocking "progress" in unworkable directions.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited October 13, 2015 by tar

[Bill Angel]

Bill Angel,

 

Yeah, but I don't want to be "done" yet. My grandfather worked into his late eighties and worked up until the week that he died. I still have something to contribute and I think for instance that my tendency to rely on human judgment over the decisions of the computerized "system", is a philosophy that should not yet be discarded.

 

Regards, TAR

 

I would agree with you on that point. As you state it is the perspective and judgment of us oldsters that is our greatest asset. I recognize that people like Steve Jobs make important contributions as very young men, but most young men don't have the abilities that he had. One ability that Steve Jobs had as young man that I did not have was prescience, the ability to envision how microprocessor based personal computers could revolutionize society. I did some projects with microprocessors back in the 1970s, and the projects were successful as far as they went, but I did not get as fired up about their potential to transform society as he did. As a consequence his net worth when he died was 11 billion dollars, while I'm just getting by on my Social Security. Edited October 13, 2015 by Bill Angel

[overtone]

Its odd to me that a Democrat could lob cruise missiles into the Balkans for instance and not be linked to the military industrial complex that built the things.

It is completely deluded of you to think that "link" did not happen.

 

What did you think was meant by the standard, frequently repeated, ordinary and common, reference to Bill Clinton as the "best Republican President of the 20th Century" ?

 

Some of us, me included did not like to watch our military get reduced and bases closed, that reduced our ability to stand against actors we find are acting contrary to human rights, peace and rule of law.

More delusion, this time about the actual role played by US military power as well as the actual "reduction" of the US military, its causes and motives.

 

What percentage of the time, for example, were the people the US military was "standing against" the ones "contrary to human rights"? How many times, and how frequently, has the US backed the bad guy with military force - since WWII, say?

 

 

America does not operate from the left or from the right, we operate from the center.

No, it doesn't. America operates from the right.

 

 

He, the young man, was Republican, but we agreed that we did not want to see either Trump or Hilary as president. The republican field is weak, but the democratic choice worse.

And so all your fine talk about conservative family values and hard work and yadda yadda yadda goes right out the window.

 

Because you haven't got a Republican candidate who represents any of that, and the Party makes it impossible anyway; but you have two or three Democratic candidates who do fairly well represent your supposed values, and they are backed by a Party that does allow them to act accordingly. And instead you sit around debating whether or not to vote Donald Trump into the Presidency of the United States. That is a legitimate possibility - you might actually vote for that guy. For President.

 

I mean, you already voted for W&Cheney - twice, once after seeing the Iraq War launched - , so what the hell, right? You have no credibility to lose, as an adult with political responsibilities.

 

The problem with America is not that the other is wrong minded. The problem is that you are wrong minded in the other's eye,

At this point, a basic reality check: Some opinions about the real world and how it is working are wrong. Not just contrary to somebody's opinion, but contrary to fact. True or false?

 

It is possible for a political Party to be a bad agent, to be representing factions and agendas that are in real life very bad for the country it is in. We have seen this in other countries. It is possible in the US. Possible. True or false?

 

 

And for you to say I have been going in the wrong direction for 40 years, because of being a Republican and living in the suburbs, is completely untrue.

 

Why do you do that?

I am done posting my perfectly clear description of what I think is America's biggest problem. Four times, directly to you, is enough.

 

The business owners and leaders of our future. Democrats of course are vital. My dad is one, my sister, my daughter, but vital too are the republicans. They have been maintaining the place as surely as they have been blocking "progress" in unworkable directions.

The Republican Party has not been "maintaining the place". It has done nothing of benefit for the country as a whole, on its on recognizance, as a Party, since 1978. It has been doing actual vandalism - tearing down the good built by others - since 1992. It has currently brought itself to a state in which it is incapable of governing the country - incapable of doing that maintenance even if it wanted to. Yet it controls much of the US government, including such matters as the budget.

 

Is there a bigger problem in this country?

Edited October 13, 2015 by overtone

[OptimisticCynic]

The problem with America is that there is a good portion of people who are detached from reality.

 

 

It has long been my litmus test of the truthfulness of my own worldview, and model of reality, that I should consider how many things would have to change, in order for my take to be right. If a large amount of things would have to change in order for me to be right, then I am probably imagining things.

 

Regards, TAR

 

So let's change ONE thing; teach everyone HOW TO deal with their own reality. Most people are detached from "reality" because they do not know how to deal with it. The technique that works has been learned from people who succeeded in figuring it out on their own. It is now being taught to more and more people around the world. It would be nice if it spread faster. Commercial website removed per rule 2.7

Edited October 13, 2015 by Phi for All
advertising removed by mod

[tar]

Overtone,

 

Well I am glad four times is enough. I certainly have listened to your delusions enough. Your take is not realistic. It does not allow for the wills and desires and judgment of the people I interact with every day.

 

I have walked down the street, I have gone to college, I have gone to football games, I have served in the military, I have worked in corporate America for a Japanese firm. I have been to Japan, I have been to Germany, I have been to the Yucatan.

 

I see wealth, I see poverty, I see things that work and things that do not.

 

You seem to be operating from an objective viewpoint that does not take into consideration the humans that surround you, that live next door and down the street and in the next town and in the next state. The people that go to church and serve their communities, the business owners that keep their businesses alive and support many families with their efforts.

 

I have repeatedly asked you who you are for, who you are with, who you support, who you align yourself with, and you answer by saying that Clinton is a Republican. Your "side" is non existent. There is nobody but you on it. So you are magnificently intelligent, and think you see the real truth behind everybody's thoughts and actions. Does not matter if you have nobody at your back. Does not matter if you do not have the voices and the votes and the money and the power to have things go your way.

 

There are very good democrats and there are very good Republicans. I know this, because the place works, and I can walk outside and enjoy the place and people smile and nod at me. We are in this together. I am not against anybody but the criminals and the people of bad will. I certainly do no go by your divisions of good and evil. Your divisions put me on the bad side. And I am one of the good guys.

Regards, TAR

Thread,

 

Take a complicated situation like Syria. We want the people to not live under the thumb of a dictator king. We want people to not live under the Russian empire. We want people to no not live under the thumb of the IS. We support certain rebel factions in Syria that then get attacked by ISIL and now bombed by Russia. Do we leave the people we supported hanging?

 

It is not a democratic decision or a republican decision. It is an American decision. We want our president to do the right thing. Because he is our president, and the commander of our armed forces. What is America's will? What should we do? The president is not the leader of a portion of our country, he is the leader of all of it. What he does, is what we do.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited October 14, 2015 by tar

[overtone]

Your take is not realistic. It does not allow for the wills and desires and judgment of the people I interact with every day.

Yes, it does. It directly addresses their political behavior, the manner in which they handle their political responsibilities as adult Americans, their judgment in the arena of politics. In particular, it insists on public recognition of the consequences of this political behavior - what happened, and why. In fact.

 

 

 

There are very good democrats and there are very good Republicans.

There are no very good Republicans running for President, or in the upper echelons of leadership in Congress, or in positions of power within the Republican Party itself. There are few - if any - in the upper echelons of the media.

 

 

Take a complicated situation like Syria. - - - Do we leave the people we supported hanging?

After what the US did to the people of Syria over the past 75 years, maybe "we" ought to consider giving them a break from our "support". Just a thought.

 

 

We are in this together. I am not against anybody but the criminals and the people of bad will. I certainly do no go by your divisions of good and evil.

What is it, exactly, that we are "in together"? Your fantasy world in which the Republican Party represents the conservative values of decent Americans? Your fantasy world in which racism did not drive white flight, moving drug addicts into speculator-targeted blocks of racist middle class white housing was "liberalism", and people who don't notice the absence of hardworking middle class black people are not racist?

 

And I am one of the good guys.

Well, you "good guys" voted W&Cheney into the White House. Twice. And you handed the country over to the Republican Congress we see in all its glory today. Do you even remember why you did that? Because I'm not seeing much of this supposed personal accountability and responsibility and honest character I've been hearing about. I'm seeing amnesia, and denial, and excuses.

 

I do remember. And racism was a very big part of it. Lying about "liberals" was a big part of it. Lying about US foreign policy and actions in other countries was a big part of it. Utter foolishness about taxation and business and trade and financial regulation was a big part of it. Paranoia and panic about never-ending lists of nonsense was a big part of it. In general, appealing to the worst aspects of human nature and the carefully cultivated ignorance of a core faction of the American electorate was the (very successful) strategy - it even had a name: the "Southern Strategy".

 

And so we have this problem: the Republican Party. Have a look, square at it: Is there a bigger problem in this country?

Edited October 14, 2015 by overtone

[tar]

Overtone,

 

I associate myself with Republicans. I associate myself with Democrats.

 

I don't hate Republicans like you do. I don't think they are a problem like you do. You can't point to things that the republican party, or America or the democratic party, or the press or Hollywood or the media has done in the last forty years, and say that is the doing of the Republican Party. It simply is not true. We all did what the nation has done in the last 40 years. We are all responsible. For voting, or not voting, for voicing our opinions or not voicing them, for standing against evil or for letting it stand.

 

Get off your high horse and take responsibility for being an American.

 

I stand with you against evil. I am not evil.

 

Regards, TAR

Overtone,

 

I was not an early white flighter. I hung in there until staying seemed stupid. It is amazing, the infrastructure, the buildings and factories, houses and apartment buildings, trains and roads and highways that were in Newark and East Orange in the middle of the 20th century. And it hurt me to see it fall into disrepair and neglect. I did not make it up. I did not burn half of Newark down during the 68 riots. I did miss a few days of 10th grade at Orange High because of the boycotts and walkouts, but I never had any problems or fights or anything with any black people. My best friend was a young black woman in my class, and the only time I remember getting near being in a fight was when I wore orange on St. Patrick's day, and that was with a white Irish guy.

 

It is my opinion, that social services are a disservice to black people. Makes them dependent and subservient. A view no different than a black buddy of mine in the Army in Germany had. He did not call be bro but called me cuz.

 

I am not so sure you have racism and "southern strategy" properly linked in your mind. In my experience, blacks in Virginia are "more equal" to whites than blacks in Newark are. Treated with more respect and give more respect. I believe life to be a two way street. As you mentioned about women having a "right" to their own life and the disposition of their sexual organs, so does a black person have a right to make their own life, the way they want it to be. There are blacks that call other blacks that have good grammar and speak well and do well at school and work, "uncle Toms". I would tend to call them good students and workers.

 

I will repeat, that I do not judge a man or woman based on the color of their skin, I judge them based on the content of their character, and on their behavior, as I do Republicans, and Democrats, women and men, Christians and Muslims.

 

9/11, at Port Imperial, as I watched the plume of black smoke rise from the other side of the river, after both towers had fallen, I knew there was evil in the world. A world that was being brought together by the internet, people talking with people across borders, still had a great evil in it, that sought to tear it apart. I did not know that day who had brought the towers down, and the plane into the Pentagon, and who had hijacked flight 83, but I knew we had an enemy. I knew I had an enemy. That my way of life was being threatened. In the aftermath I had to be screened to enter buildings in NYC and wait in long lines at the security in airports. My way of life was changed. I had to start not trusting my fellow man, keeping my eyes out for someone that was going to hurt us. Put chemicals in our water (we live near the water supply of half the population of the state), derail our trains, blow up events. I reserve the right to be glad we got bin laden and to seek to cut the head off of any other similar snake that raises its ugly head. I do not apologize for being American, nor for being registered Republican, not for looking for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and removing Sadam from power, nor for protecting the rights of women to be schooled in Afghanistan. America did those things on my behalf. And at my bequest.

 

Perhaps we would be doing Syria a favor by staying out of the mix. Perhaps if we were out of it Russia would take over, or Iran, or the Saudis, or Assad would regain control of the country he is president of. Maybe we should just let ISIL take over the middle East and North Africa and reestablish a Caliphate run by sharia law. That would sure help (sarcastic) your (with your permission, our) human rights and women's right agenda.

 

You speak as if some media trickster has stirred up hatred and fear. You ignore the reality of the situation. These problems are real.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited October 14, 2015 by tar

[overtone]

You can't point to things that the republican party, or America or the democratic party, or the press or Hollywood or the media has done in the last forty years, and say that is the doing of the Republican Party.

Like I said: amnesia, denial, and a complete abdication of personal responsibility. And then long speeches about conservative values and the personal responsibility they involve.

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

 

Get off your high horse and take responsibility for being an American.

That would include doing something about America's biggest problem, which so far sits unchallenged by argument or evidence as

 

the Republican Party, its nature, behavior, media influence, and core electoral support,

 

 

I'm open to suggestions, as to what a responsible American would do about that toxic pile. Seriously - the sane and informed have been fighting that creeping sludge of a "Party" since 1978, and overall losing. We only got 135 Congressmen to vote against even something as horribly deranged as the Iraq War. We could use some help.

Edited October 14, 2015 by overtone

[John Cuthber]

 

I don't hate Republicans like you do. I don't think they are a problem like you do. You can't point to things that the republican party, or America or the democratic party, or the press or Hollywood or the media has done in the last forty years, and say that is the doing of the Republican Party. It simply is not true. We all did what the nation has done in the last 40 years. We are all responsible. For voting, or not voting, for voicing our opinions or not voicing them, for standing against evil or for letting it stand.

 

OK, I'm not American, but let's pretend for a minute that I am and that, in spite of that I still hold my political views that are viewed as Left wing, even in the UK so they would be thought very Left wing in the US.

Now, you tell me that I'm responsible for what the Republican party has done.

Well, I think that's obviously nonsense.

Tell me, what could I have done to stop them (and don't say "vote against them" because 1 vote wouldn't have made any difference.).

 

If, as I contend, there would have been absolutely nothing i could have done to change them, then you can not say I am responsible for them.

[tar]

John,

 

Well then lets talk Tory, or whatever the equivalent of the Republican Party is in England.

 

I do not know if there is a equivalent to the Tea Party or the KKK in England, but if there is, I doubt that they would be associated with the entire Tory party for the last 40 years. For instance, if a group of people thought it was not a good idea to float 1000s of Syrian refugees into Manchester, it would not make everything the Tory party did for 40 years evil.

 

I do not like much of what the tea party says and does, but I come to my judgments quite unimpressed by Fox news.

 

My view of the Iraq war is not the same as Overtone's. I quite thought we were right to kick Sadam out of Kuwait and to push him back to Bagdad and remove him from power. He was not very nice to his southern Shite population, nor to his norther Kurdish population. We did not find weapons of mass destruction, but that does not mean he did not have them. We know he had them, because he used them. My own personal theory is that many were destroyed when he built the trench around Baghdad and filled it with oil and lit it on fire, "as a defense". I think he threw a few things he did not want the world to find in there as well. Also there is a chance that some large stocks of WMDs were buried in the sands of Syria, which is another theory of mine. Now possibly under the control of ISIL, if true. So I do not share Overtone's opinion, that Iraq was a silly mistake. So such can not be brought up to me as a problem with U.S. behavior in the last 40 years. I was all for it. I heard today that Hilary voted to go into Iraq, and I don't think she would be happy with Overtone's suggestion that she is part of the evil Republican conspiracy to destroy the country.

 

When the towers came down, people all over the world, probably even John Cuthber, felt an evil was done to them. It was, after all the World Trade Center. You stood with us in Iraq and supported us in our fight against the Taliban in Afghanistan. Obama spoke often about our ally England and our shared values of human rights and rule of law. You cannot say that you had nothing to do with the coalition that defeated Saddam. Nor can you say that you had nothing to do with receiving cotton picked by slaves in Southern Plantations into your ports and textile industry in the distant past, nor reject your role as Imperialist Great Britain in slicing up the middle east into kingdoms.

 

One of the things that I have realized about life, having been both young and democrat, and old and republican, is that we have many to thank for the position we are in. Technology and science and math and law and religion all are woven into the fabric of our existence and many that came before us laid the groundwork, built and maintained the institutions and the civilizations that make up our history and hence our present situation. None of it is "other" than us. We are responsible. For the good and the bad. We are offspring, as a country of Great Britain. We fought a war of independence. But the Tory never was purged from the system. We were still on the same side against Hitler and Saddam and likely will be on the same side against the Taliban and ISIL. House of Commons and House of Lords, both.

 

Regards, TAR

John Cuthber,

 

That evil person that killed those 9 out in our NorthWest the other week, was a conservative republican. He also was impressed with the Nazi iron cross, and was enamored with the uniforms and weapons of the IRA. What was your personal role is creating the IRA? Do you support it, or are you a detractor? Do you take any personal responsibility for the role the IRA played in the mindset of the crazy white Nazi conservative republican that shot those students?

 

I personally am not responsible for his actions nor his craziness. But it is my country and what goes on in it affects me dearly. I do not want such evil things occurring, but neither do I want the American population disarmed, nor the IRA disbanded nor the Republican Party painted as the devil.

 

After 9/11 I read the Koran twice, once for the idea, and once for comprehension. I was looking for what in the book would make me the devil, and cause someone to fly airplanes full of people into beautiful buildings full of people. I found some questionable ideas. That the jews were in error because of their money lending, and the Christians were in error because they though Allah had associates (father son and holy ghost) and that the idol worshippers were in error, with their graven images. And that one should fight until all the world is for allah and believes in the prophet mohammed. I personally do not want to live under sharia law. I don't want my daughters subjected to it. I don't want to see great works of art and religious icons destroyed because of it. I think it is wrong to merge religion and the state and believe it to be very undemocratic, unsecular, ugly and unreasonable, and would not like my way of life, disturbed by such. It is against the values that I call my own, and against the values I was taught as a young child, and against the values and the judgment of a great majority of the U.S. population, and I would guess the great majority of your British population, being on the Christian side of the Crusades, might have similar feelings on the matter.

 

If sharia law was enforced in American cities, I would find that a problem. I do not find it a problem for a Republican to say that sharia law and our constitution are incompatible.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited October 14, 2015 by tar

[waitforufo]

In general, appealing to the worst aspects of human nature and the carefully cultivated ignorance of a core faction of the American electorate was the (very successful) strategy - it even had a name: the "Southern Strategy".

 

Overtone is just obsessed with the "Southern Strategy." He thinks the "Southern Strategy" somehow absolves the Democratic party of 200 years of active promotion of racism. It does not.

 

Both the civil rights act and the voting rights act were approved by bipartisan votes. A significant majority of Democratic party members in both the house and the senate voted in favor of both acts. So did Republicans. In fact, in keeping with the Republican founding principals on civil rights, Republicans did so with larger majorities than Democrats within there voting members. Both of these bills and many other similar bills since the end of the Civil War had always been supported if not initiated by Republicans. As a reward to Republicans for finally getting these bills passed in congress, 90% of black Americans registered as Democrats. So long time Democratic voters, racists, felt betrayed by the majority vote of their own Democratic party members in congress. This feeling of betrayal was supported by the 90% black registration as Democrats. In an act of revenge, Democratic voters, racists, then voted for Republicans. Somehow, in overtone's eyes, this makes Republicans evil. Would this have happened if black Americans had registered as Republicans? I doubt it.

[overtone]

He thinks the "Southern Strategy" somehow absolves the Democratic party of 200 years of active promotion of racism.

Nothing I have posted absolves the Democratic Party of anything. But the last forty five years of calculated Republican racism, launched with the Southern Strategy which has been employed in every national campaign since Nixon won with it, is on record. Republican national strategists took the bigot vote from the Dems in 1968, and they've kept it ever since, with that strategy.

 

 

Both the civil rights act and the voting rights act were approved by bipartisan votes.

And both have been attacked, and partially revoked, by Republican Party initiatives in the past forty years. Party line votes, Republican endorsement, Republican governors and State legislators, Republican appointed Supreme Court justices in a newly partisan Court - there's nothing subtle about it. It's in everyone's face.

 

 

As a reward to Republicans for finally getting these bills passed in congress, 90% of black Americans registered as Democrats. So long time Democratic voters, racists, felt betrayed by the majority vote of their own Democratic party members in congress.

And we see that there is absolutely nothing the current Republican voter is too embarrassed to blame on black people and their ingratitude, laziness, welfare dependency, etc.

 

The bigoted Dem voters were not betrayed by their Congressmen (many of their Congressmen switched Parties, became Republican, in order to better defy the Civil Rights and Voting Rights acts, and keep their bigot vote) but by their President, Kennedy and then especially Lyndon Johnson. And Nixon figured out how to take advantage of that.

Edited October 14, 2015 by overtone

[tar]

Overtone,

 

I have seen the bigotry expressed by some Obama haters and find it sickening.

 

I have also seen Obama lead the country as if everybody that disagrees with his politics is a bigot. And feel he sometimes leads only half the country and degrades the other half.

 

You also are guilty of this transferal of bigotry onto the Republican party. You see everything republican through that lens and if somebody voted for Bush he/she is automatically a bigot.

 

Some people, including myself question unworkable programs and unfunded mandates because they are unworkable programs and unfunded mandates.

 

For instance I heard some snips from the latest debate, and two of the democratic candidates were saying how they were listening to the American people, and what they wanted was loan free college? How do they figure colleges are going to run their campus and pay their professors and have fine equipment to work with, if nobody is paying tuition? How can we give such a thing as a college education away for free? We can not. Unless the quality of the education the student is getting is worth 0. So if a person thinks about the increase in taxes that would have to go along with such a promise, one might object to it, since it would also mean that all sorts of rules in terms of courses and professor's and so on would come into play, with the promise. Universities could not operate as they do now. The game would change. It would be objected to based on its unworkability and its lack of funding, yet if Republicans made the objection, you, Overtone would be sure its because they are bigots and want to keep black folk, uneducated, and in the ghetto.

 

Or so I would guess, based on your general reluctance to consider Republican voters equal human beings with quality minds and good judgment and good hearts.

 

Which is my point on this thread. Republicans are people too, and have reasons, to believe what they believe and be the way they are and support the candidates they support. Everybody does not think like me, everybody does not think like you. The less bigotry the better. The more we try and understand why the other feels the way they feel the better chance we have of attacking issues together, and the less chance there will be that the issue is the other person, or the other party, or the other race, or the other income level.

 

You say the biggest problem is the republican party. I say the biggest problem is that you don't consider the republican party fellow Americans.

 

Regards, TAR

We had Pell grants, and many blacks got out of the ghetto because of it. But it did not end structural racism or poverty. And whatever program should not be structured to help the disadvantaged become advantaged if it takes the advantage away from people who have worked to gain it.

 

I wondered again when listening to one of the candidates talk about increasing the percentage of income tax again on the wealthiest Americans. He said they are doing well, they can afford it. The rich guys money is not ours for the taking, any more than a poor guys money would be ours for the taking.

 

Just for fun, I would wonder what percentage of the top 1 percent of income earners are republican. Just for fun I would wonder why those people would think they did not already pay more than their share of taxes and would vote for representatives who were for smaller, not larger government. Must be bigots, huh? Can't be incapable of earning big money, can't be stupid, can't be untrustworthy, must be heartless and cruel and bigots, otherwise there would be no poverty in this country, right?

Was talking today about the caste system in India, where there is amazing poverty. I think we have managed to do a little better here in the states.

[overtone]

I have also seen Obama lead the country as if everybody that disagrees with his politics is a bigot.

No, you haven't seen anything like that, not even close.

 

 

 

and two of the democratic candidates were saying how they were listening to the American people, and what they wanted was loan free college? How do they figure colleges are going to run their campus and pay their professors and have fine equipment to work with, if nobody is paying tuition? How can we give such a thing as a college education away for free? We can not

There are five or six ways standard ways to pay for college educations for the citizenry of a competently governed industrial power;

such as the GI Bill, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.I._Bill (that put an entire US generation through college "for free", even paying a minimal stipend for living expenses, despite the huge overhanging debt from WWII) or the standard procedural method of tacking a percentage unto the income tax of everyone who takes a government paid degree, and so forth.

 

Many countries provide free or minimal cost college educations to those willing to do the work. Most of them are nowhere near as wealthy as the US. They don't do it from charity. They do it out of self-interest. It pays off.

 

This is standard stuff. The US reaped huge benefits from their debt-free educated citizenry in the years after the GI Bill - the 50s and 60s and 70s. Why don't you know this?

 

And what do you expect people who do know this basic stuff to think, when you say:

 

 

Some people, including myself question unworkable programs and unfunded mandates because they are unworkable programs and unfunded mandates.

You obviously have no idea what programs are workable, and which mandates are unfunded.

 

Or so I would guess, based on your general reluctance to consider Republican voters equal human beings with quality minds and good judgment and good hearts.

Their hearts I don't know anything about. Their minds and judgment had them voting for W&Cheney in 2000 and 2004, both. The only way to restore credibility after that would be for them to demonstrate some kind of comprehension of what they had done to their country, and some kind of evidence of having rethought their political stances and support - including, for example, abandoning the Republican Party until it has cleaned house. Instead, I see denial and amnesia and excuses - dozens and dozens of excuses. Dog ate my homework level excuses. Are you children, that we should tolerate that, cut you slack, pat you on the head and credit you with a good heart?

 

 

Republicans are people too, and have reasons, to believe what they believe and be the way they are and support the candidates they support. Everybody does not think like me, everybody does not think like you. The less bigotry the better. The more we try and understand why the other feels the way they feel the better chance we have of attacking issues together

Why do you think I don't know how you "feel", or why the core Republicans vote as they do? Try this idea on: I do know. I've watched them do it, listened to their "explanations", seen the whole charade play out, dozens of times now. I just don't like it. It's been forty years of unforgivable and incredible bullshit, and it's absolutely familiar. The 27% Republican voter has been screwed up and dangerous my entire adult life, and right out in public. I am sick and tired of the manipulated "feelings" of the ignorant and deluded enabling this Party to wreck my country.

 

I want you to take responsibility for the consequences of your past political behavior, and learn from them.

 

And when you have a clue, when you are not sitting around with your halfwit Republican buddies contemplating actually voting for one of those depraved incompetents for the Presidency of the United States - for any reason whatsoever - you can join a conversation among adults about "attacking issues together".

Edited October 15, 2015 by overtone

[John Cuthber]

 

John Cuthber,

 

That evil person that killed those 9 out in our NorthWest the other week, was a conservative republican. He also was impressed with the Nazi iron cross, and was enamored with the uniforms and weapons of the IRA. What was your personal role is creating the IRA? Do you support it, or are you a detractor? Do you take any personal responsibility for the role the IRA played in the mindset of the crazy white Nazi conservative republican that shot those students?

 

I personally am not responsible for his actions nor his craziness. But it is my country and what goes on in it affects me dearly. I do not want such evil things occurring, but neither do I want the American population disarmed, nor the IRA disbanded nor the Republican Party painted as the devil.

 

The republican party was doing the wrong thing by proclaiming, in essence, that "greed is good" long before 9/11 and before that IRA loving nut shot people.

So, perhaps you would like to address the problem.

They are a bunch of power crazed money loving selfish bastards.

The problem isn't, as you seem to try to paint it, some small number of nutters- any party will have them.

The issue is that they lie about the nature of government- i.e. that to be useful, it has to cost money.

[tar]

Overtone,

 

Did you watch Hilary talk about who her enemies were. The drug companies the insurance companies, the Iranians, the republicans. And then in the same speech talked about "making" the wealthy pay for college for everyone. That is "adult"?

 

Get a life.

 

Regards, TAR

[DrP]

we used to have free tuition here... but now you need a small loan to get you through.. I am a big fan of taxes to pay for college (for those that qualify through merit at schools, not just 'everyone'). Why should only the rich get an education? It should go to those that deserve/are capable of it regardless of their families wealth.

[tar]

DrP,

 

On the other hand, how come I am helping pay off my daughter's college, AND am expected to pay more taxes so somebody else's daughter can go to the same school and compete with my daughter for a job?

 

Merit is already considered, as many schools offer scholarships and fellowships. My daughter partook in a research fellowship last year. I took a course last year on an upSkill grant, offered by virtue of my service to the country and by the country's interest in giving the unemployed help in obtaining needed skills in the STEM field. We are already doing these things. Hilary is running on the principle that we should have free education on the backs of the wealthy. Its not the way the prospective leader of ALL the people, should be talking.

 

Regards, TAR

[DrP]

Well have to differ - of course taxes should pay for it otherwise those from lesser background will suffer... but fine, keep your elitist views and screw the poor over then, who cares!