What Is Americas Biggest Problem?

[tar]

iNow,

 

My premise in this thread is that the biggest problem we have is that we don't trust each other to have good judgement and legitimate reasons to hold our opposite opinions. Concern about Presidential overreach is a legitimate concern, and brought up in your link, as a reason why it was a bad move for Obama to link a program of his, with a formerly accepted program.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited December 16, 2015 by tar

[John Cuthber]

From just the video posted, I thought my objections were found to have a basis in fact.

 

I took that as enough.

My other evidence is anecdotal and obtained from conversations with a 2nd grade teacher. I will not name this source. But he/she is aware of the order in which concepts are supposed to be taught, and the punitive nature of the response to having your class not showing they have learned the concepts required. And this system does not take properly into consideration the lower quality of students that come from uneducated households, without books, nor students with behavioral issues, nor students with English as a second language.

Besides, the point of my argument, in reference to the thread, is that such a thing as education is not a Democrats are right, Republicans are obstructionist, type of area of interest. Democrats could find fault with common core and standardized testing, same as a Republican could. And a Republican does not have to object because they are obstructionist, but can object because they object.

That video isn't any official guide to what the curriculum says.

So I conclude that it doesn't say what you claimed.

[tar]

http://www.txcscopereview.com/2013/did-your-child-fail-staar/

 

John Cuthber,

 

The debate for how and what we teach our kids is not a republican/democrat debate. And if it is, it should not be. The mind is not a commodity, not political fodder, and any one size fits all policy is in my estimation, lacking.

 

The debate concerning what we teach our children and how we teach our children and who should be in charge is real and meaningful, but there are arguments for the federal government to be in charge, arguments for the state, the town school board, the superintendent, the teachers, the students, the tax payers, the parents, the students, the business community, the general public, and the universities, to be in charge.

 

It is not a republican/democrat debate. And my reasons for not liking common core are my own. My own judgement. My own common sense, my own understanding of what it means to learn, and what a test should be used for.

 

I brought up my opinion on the issue in reference to this thread, and my theme that our biggest problem is that we don't listen to each other, and treat each other with respect, as another human being with capability, trustworthiness, and intelligence.

 

My intent was not to debate common core, but to point out that I could be against it for sensible reasons, and that demonizing those against it, as bigots or idiots or obstructionists, is not reasonable, fair or realistic.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited December 16, 2015 by tar

[dimreepr]

I think, and obviously it’s from an external perspective, that America’s biggest problem is that revenge seems to be a cultural norm.

 

It’s so seductive and so easily identifiable, the bad guy does bad things because they’re bad and if we’re not bad then obviously we’re the good guys. It’s so easy to think in those terms because we’re unique, unique finger prints, unique personalities and free will, so being bad is a choice and the bad guy deserves what he/she gets, even death is too good for them if they’re bad enough.

 

What’s more difficult to understand, is that whilst every human/animal is indeed unique, a dog still acts like a dog, a penguin acts like a penguin and a human acts like a human and each are subject to its life experiences; a kind/good person had understanding parents that treated/taught them well, including the consequences of bad behaviour, whilst the bully/bad person had uncaring/abusive parents that either beat them or maybe spoilt them and failed to teach them reasonable behaviour.

 

Now I’m not suggesting the bad person should be let off without consequence but a little understanding of the above should at least allow them a little compassion and a realisation that anyone can be good or bad, add fear to the mix, without understanding you create a black/white world where revenge is the only sensible option.

Edited December 16, 2015 by dimreepr

[iNow]

I brought up my opinion on the issue in reference to this thread, and my theme that our biggest problem is that we don't listen to each other, and treat each other with respect, as another human being with capability, trustworthiness, and intelligence.

It's hard for many of us to respect (and even continue to listen to) those who consistently argue from a position of ignorance, root their views in obvious untruths, and willfully refuse to update their thinking even when corrected.

[John Cuthber]

 

John Cuthber,

 

The debate for how and what we teach our kids is not a republican/democrat debate. And if it is, it should not be.

 

Quite right.

However, that's not the issue under discussion. The point I was asking about was where (if anywhere) the curriculum actually said what you claimed it did.

Where does it say this?

All children should learn these concepts, in this order, use these books that your local schoolboard will pay for, and the children will be tested, using school time, school buildings, and salaried employees as to whether or not they have learned the concepts, according to an imposed criteria and good teachers who have not taught to the test, or teachers with below average students, will be penalized and districts will lose federal money unless they comply.

So, can you back up the claim you made?

If not, are you going to be honest enough to admit that you can't defend the assertion because it simply isn't true, and you made it up?

[tar]

John Cuthber,

 

I put it together from things I heard and read.

 

Regards, TAR

If only I had made it up, I wouldn't be worried about it.

on a further personal note my departed mom taught math and science at a private school for girls, my dad was the head of the psychology dept. at a small private college in NJ, my aunt taught literature at university, my cousin was a school principle, my second cousin teaches at a college in Viginia, a close personal friend of my dad, that I have known for scores and scores of years is the Scholar in Residence at a major U.S. university. And a relation is the 2nd grade teacher that I have spoken to on many occasions about this

 

I taught technical classes myself and am not outside the realm of education in this country. I have no reason to make up what I have said.

my step mom taught psychology at county college and my daughter teaches analytical chemistry as part of her doctoral program

so no I can't back it up

I did not record all the conversations I have had and those I have been privy to.

[John Cuthber]

John Cuthber,

 

I put it together from things I heard and read.

 

That's the problem, you seem to have put it together from nonsense you heard on Fox.

That's why I keep asking you to look for it in the real world.

And you can't (or wont).

 

Do you see the problem there.

You seem to be relying on something that's known to be more often wrong than right.

So, once again, I challenge you to actually show that you are not being misled.

Show me where the curriculum says those things you claimed.

[tar]

John Cuthber,

 

I didn't rely on Fox news at all.

 

I relied on a second grade teacher.

 

That is more real world, than going by news reports or internet articles that may or may not be spun, have omitted information, or gotten something wrong.

 

I wouldn't even begin to defend Fox, they are very bias, their spin is a given. But there are other authors on the internet, and pieces put out by various professional media people, that could spin the thing in the other direction. And just plain facts could be consistent with either a pro or against opinion. As is evident by me thinking the things posted were consistent with what I said, and you thinking that they showed me to be misled by Fox bias. You are looking for Fox to be wrong, not looking for common core to be wrong. How could you allow yourself to see any problem with common core, if that would mean that Fox was right about something?

 

We all, republican and democrat, that are not under Trump's evangelical, reactionary wing, laughed at his shut down portions of the internet statements, because we know he is wrong about so many other things, that he has to be wrong about this as well...except...

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/are-isis-hackers-trying-to-destroy-the-internet/ar-BBnEEQy?ocid=spartandhp

 

We have to work together against all things that threaten this place. Fighting each other is not notably helpful.

 

Regards, TAR

from state common core standards

http://www.corestandards.org/read-the-standards/

 

 

Key Shifts in Mathematics

 

 

Introduction

 

The Common Core State Standards for Mathematics build on the best of existing standards and reflect the skills and knowledge students will need to succeed in college, career, and life. Understanding how the standards differ from previous standards—and the necessary shifts they call for—is essential to implementing them.

 

The following are the key shifts called for by the Common Core:

1)

Greater focus on fewer topics

 

The Common Core calls for greater focus in mathematics. Rather than racing to cover many topics in a mile-wide, inch-deep curriculum, the standards ask math teachers to significantly narrow and deepen the way time and energy are spent in the classroom. This means focusing deeply on the major work of each grade as follows:

◦In grades K–2: Concepts, skills, and problem solving related to addition and subtraction

◦In grades 3–5: Concepts, skills, and problem solving related to multiplication and division of whole numbers and fractions

◦In grade 6: Ratios and proportional relationships, and early algebraic expressions and equations

◦In grade 7: Ratios and proportional relationships, and arithmetic of rational numbers

◦In grade 8: Linear algebra and linear functions

 

This focus will help students gain strong foundations, including a solid understanding of concepts, a high degree of procedural skill and fluency, and the ability to apply the math they know to solve problems inside and outside the classroom.

 

2)

Coherence: Linking topics and thinking across grades

 

Mathematics is not a list of disconnected topics, tricks, or mnemonics; it is a coherent body of knowledge made up of interconnected concepts. Therefore, the standards are designed around coherent progressions from grade to grade. Learning is carefully connected across grades so that students can build new understanding onto foundations built in previous years. For example, in 4th grade, students must “apply and extend previous understandings of multiplication to multiply a fraction by a whole number” (Standard 4.NF.4). This extends to 5th grade, when students are expected to build on that skill to “apply and extend previous understandings of multiplication to multiply a fraction or whole number by a fraction” (Standard 5.NF.4). Each standard is not a new event, but an extension of previous learning.

 

Coherence is also built into the standards in how they reinforce a major topic in a grade by utilizing supporting, complementary topics. For example, instead of presenting the topic of data displays as an end in itself, the topic is used to support grade-level word problems in which students apply mathematical skills to solve problems.

 

3)

Rigor: Pursue conceptual understanding, procedural skills and fluency, and application with equal intensity

 

Rigor refers to deep, authentic command of mathematical concepts, not making math harder or introducing topics at earlier grades. To help students meet the standards, educators will need to pursue, with equal intensity, three aspects of rigor in the major work of each grade: conceptual understanding, procedural skills and fluency, and application.

 

Conceptual understanding: The standards call for conceptual understanding of key concepts, such as place value and ratios. Students must be able to access concepts from a number of perspectives in order to see math as more than a set of mnemonics or discrete procedures.

 

Procedural skills and fluency: The standards call for speed and accuracy in calculation. Students must practice core functions, such as single-digit multiplication, in order to have access to more complex concepts and procedures. Fluency must be addressed in the classroom or through supporting materials, as some students might require more practice than others.

 

Application: The standards call for students to use math in situations that require mathematical knowledge. Correctly applying mathematical knowledge depends on students having a solid conceptual understanding and procedural fluency.

Edited December 17, 2015 by tar

[DrP]

Just a note on Fox from someone outside of the USA... I saw the interview between Bill O'Really and Obama from 2014... I was astounded at O'Really's ignorance and rudeness... he was talking to the president and kept pushing his Benghazi idiocy and the rubbish about the IRS... he was truly owned by Obama who answered everyone of points straight away and with confidence and patience... O'really's attack was reduced to 'so why does everyone keep bringing it up if your so innocent?" to which the president replied.. "Well, it's just you that keeps bringing it up Bill, perhaps that's why some people believe it, because you and Fox are telling them this rubbish".

 

The Obama interview was a disgrace... the guy should be fired.

 

.... I was amazed at his ignorance further when I saw many more interviews with him just being dumb and shouting over any argument which gives him facts that disprove his points. HOW???? How does a man like that get to run things at Fox? Unfortunately I know already - Money.

[Phi for All]

The school curriculum problem seems to, again, be exacerbated by conservative agendas. Right wing conservatives don't trust intellectuals, teachers are the epitome of intellectual pursuit, so we end up with overtesting because RWCs don't trust them to do their jobs. People who should be getting applause every time they walk into a room are being underpaid, under-appreciated, and instead of being helped to do their jobs by their governments, the focus becomes all about accountability and false metrics.

 

Religious RWCs are also pushing faith-based teaching onto the system, clearly at odds with the Constitution, while claiming to uphold it. My county is reeling from recalling our school board members, who for the last two years, were pushing a conservative agenda that was clearly aiming at voucher education and privatization, one of the final holdouts for religious RWCs to be able to slip some gospel in with the science.

 

I think America has a broad political problem with courting big business. That's an area where both sides are guilty. Corporations with the money to lobby legally to change the laws to make more types of lobbying legal are corrupting our system from within, and making it look like progress. It's pretty crazy that we know we've allowed lots of banks and other businesses to pillage our public coffers and ruin personal lives, yet far too many people agree with the RWCs that... drumroll please... we have too much regulation already!

 

But for the most part, it seems pretty clear to me that it's one side, the Right-Wing Conservative side, that is fundamentally handicapped from making rational decisions about how we're governed. Something about their general makeup clearly forces them to react emotionally to most situations, and then studiously avoid learning any facts that might disagree with that initial reaction. So we get people who think they can protect their children better if everyone has guns. Clinging to ignorance is what makes people (and politicians) do the inexplicably weird things that make us wonder if the Republican party has lost its collective mind.

 

I am SO done with the modern media tactic of making all arguments equal, to squeeze the most spotlight potential from every news story. It's dangerous to the part of the public that relies more on information, and actually being informed by the news.

[DrP]

Yes - a lot of Bill O'Reilly's views are retarded.** The problem is that when he speaks with conviction there are a lot of people that believe his crap and their world view also becomes retarded.

 

 

 

** - I use this word as factual, not as an insult. His views are based on beliefs that are thousands of years old that have been superceeded by science. Therefore, by very definition of the word, his views are retarded.

[John Cuthber]

OK, so let's see. You say "All children should learn these concepts, in this order,"

 

And the only thing that they specify any "order" for is this

 

"◦In grades K–2: Concepts, skills, and problem solving related to addition and subtraction

◦In grades 3–5: Concepts, skills, and problem solving related to multiplication and division of whole numbers and fractions
◦In grade 6: Ratios and proportional relationships, and early algebraic expressions and equations
◦In grade 7: Ratios and proportional relationships, and arithmetic of rational numbers
◦In grade 8: Linear algebra and linear functions"

 

So, logically, you have a problem with trying to learn addition and subtraction before multiplication and division ... and ... before algebra.
Well, OK, but I think most people would agree that's the sensible way to do it.

 

 

And you also say "use these books that your local schoolboard will pay for"

Well, the part of the curriculum you have cited doesn't mention any books at all (never mind who pays for them).

 

And so on.

So, as I said, where ever it is that you get your ideas about what the curriculum says; it isn't from the curriculum is it?

 

Do you realise it's as if you were saying "I don't like the Bible because it bans mobile phones".

It simply doesn't say what you claim it does.

[tar]

Well if that is the sensible order, why do you think schools were not already doing it right, without any guidance from above?

 

That is the "insulting" part.

the unfunded mandate part, I got from listening to a school board meeting where obtaining a certain math book was required to keep funding

 

like we didn't already know how to add, subtract, multiply, divide and work with ratios and such without the "world class approach"

[John Cuthber]

Well if that is the sensible order, why do you think schools were not already doing it right, without any guidance from above?

 

That is the "insulting" part.

the unfunded mandate part, I got from listening to a school board meeting where obtaining a certain math book was required to keep funding

 

like we didn't already know how to add, subtract, multiply, divide and work with ratios and such without the "world class approach"

 

OK, so now you say you object to the curriculum because it says they have to do something that's sensible.

 

Did you think this through?

 

 

Well, one reason why schools might not teach sensible things is if political interference stopped them doing so.

For example, you and I might agree that teaching critical thinking is a good idea.

we might not agree that a party that tried to stop it being taught should be closed down as more damaging to society than terrorists.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html

 

So, as you put it, it's clear that some people don't understand that we "already know how to add, subtract, multiply, divide and work with ratios and such "

They think we are doing it wrong, and should stop teaching kids to think.

Edited December 17, 2015 by John Cuthber

[tar]

Phi,

 

The voucher thing was so that people could send their kids to Catholic School or private school, and not be forced to also support the public school system.

 

I went to private school and public school. I learned how to add subtract multiply and divide, and learned about evolution. Before common core.

 

Regards, TAR

[Phi for All]

The voucher thing was so that people could send their kids to Catholic School or private school, and not be forced to also support the public school system.

 

"The voucher thing" not only pulls support from public schools, it asks that the public help fund your private schooling. You think that's right? Public education is public. The voucher system is nothing more than privatizing an asset the People should be in control of, NOT the corporations. It's unbelievable to me that people think it's a good idea to privatize things like education, law enforcement, and the prison system. We want every US citizen to have as much education as possible, and privatizing it will automatically mean at least 15-25% of the public monies will go to private profit. And teachers will be hired for their profitability, not their ability. Profit will continue to be the focus, not educating children (I'm sure at some point, like prisons, it will occur to the corporations that kids who graduate and leave are hurting the bottom line).

 

My incredulity at the sheer cumulative stupidity of fearful conservatives being manipulated by big business hasn't helped much, I will admit. I shake my head and nobody hears it rattle.

[tar]

Phi,

 

 "My incredulity at the sheer cumulative stupidity of fearful conservatives being manipulated by big business hasn't helped much, I will admit. I shake my head and nobody hears it rattle."

 

Exactly.

 

It doesn't pay to be right, if being right makes you wrong.

 

Thinking Republicans, or Tea Party member, or Texans are bad, is akin to thinking all Muslims are bad.

 

Regards, TAR

 

 

If my country votes in a government that I don't agree with, I just have to wait 'til they vote in one I like a little better.

If you are waiting for the world to get unreligious however, you might have a long wait.

 

Better I think to find the good in people. Even people you think are wrong about this or that. Read the passage about what the new standards are, and see if you find any fault with them on their own merit. Do they make sense to you, as standards? Are they better, worse or the same, as standards we went by, when we went to school?

Thread,

 

And a little vote for conservatives.

 

We have a fantastic society. The West has done great things since the Industrial revolution, the enlightenment, and the use of the scientific method, to solve our problems in food production, housing, transportation, medicine, predicting the weather, waging war, traveling to the moon, and every other progressive step we have taken since the dark ages. But progress is no good, without maintaining our gains. New ideas are not always well thought out.

 

It pays to maintain your base, while you build higher. It is OK to take over the factory, but burning it down is just plain silly.

above all, the situation has to remain workable

 

elsewise it is unworkable

war

what is it good for

absolutely nothing

say it again

[Phi for All]

Thinking Republicans, or Tea Party member, or Texans are bad, is akin to thinking all Muslims are bad.

 

I honestly despair that you're ever going to understand the difference between an observation about a political Party, and one about its members. The two shouldn't be conflated, but you consistently do so, to the detriment of any kind of nuance in discussing things with you. It's depressing when one says "The Republican party is doing some incredibly bad/stupid things", and somehow you translate that to "If you're a Republican (Tea Party member/Texan/Muslim), you're bad/stupid."

 

In six years here, you should have picked this up.

 

Exactly.

 

It doesn't pay to be right, if being right makes you wrong.

 

That's an inane thing to say (no, not you, the thing you said). It makes no sense, it doesn't look or sound clever, and it's certainly not applicable. I respect your POV, but I wish you would stop filling in the gaps in your arguments with garbage like this. Sorry, but I know I'm not alone in this.

[tar]

Phi,

 

So ignore my comment and answer the question.

 

Reading the new standards, in math, do they improve the education of our kids? Does it degrade or is it the same, in your opinion. Just reading the standards, without political considerations taken into account.

 

My comment does make sense, however, and it is the answer to many conflicts, personal, in school and business, and in politics, local, national and global.

 

If being right causes you to fight with your wife or neighbor or the guy on the highway, or in your town or state or country or on the other side of the ocean, maybe you could let the other guy be right, and have peace and work together, instead. Swallow your pride and kiss and makeup.

 

Unless you draw a red line in the sand and declare war on the other side, it does not pay to be right, if being right makes you wrong, and you wind up sleeping alone.

Phi, I realize that others feel continually that I argue from ignorance. That I overthink situations and miss the simple point.

 

Well, usually I am talking about more things than the topic, and using the topic to explore the other things. Human psychology, my own concerns, my own existence and value, language, judgement, intrinsic value, love and the collective experience of this world that all humans share. In this, I have equal standing with the brightest minds and the dullest. I rank you as a friend, as I do most everybody here. I want everybody to win, to feel good, to feel right. So I look for the ways where that might be possible. Some things I am just going to have to be wrong about, but those things are up to me to figure out, and decide upon. Where I want to make the other feel good, at my expense, is my business.

 

Where you, and the other people that are fed up with me might be right, is that I am concerned about being wrong, in your eyes. It makes a big difference to me, when I get neg reps, and when I get pluses. But I have always been genuine and if I press a point, it is because I have a point to make.

 

Regards, TAR

and it might not always be a point that you are willing to concede

Here is the thing.

 

I was up visiting some folks who have a wonderful, close, loving giving family. They run businesses, help charities, start orphanages, give people jobs, and basically make this world a better place, every day, in every way. I think they might be democrats, but they are Catholic, and one is quite rich and the others quite successful in the business ventures. In the real world, when they join hands and give thanks and I am there in the circle, it is the circle I am in. And they are my countrymen and the people that have my back as much as anybody here is and has. They are NOT the problem with America, even if one made a comment about Obama not doing it right, and another a comment about Muslim beliefs not being consistent with our constitution.

Edited December 18, 2015 by tar

[tar]

I do not agree that one should not conflate the individual with their team. The team would not exist were it not for the individuals in it.

however it is important to remember that we each are on more than one team and that we each most likely have reservations about which plays our coaches are calling from time to time

we each as individuals wear more than one hat

 

family, friends, associations, talk boards, jobs, religions, philosophies, adherents to theories, partnerships, alliances, volunteer organizations, political parties, lake association, township, county, state, region, country, continent, world, solar system, galaxy, universe...there are a number of entities that each of us is a member of.

and I daresay there is probably no two people with the exact same collection of teams that they are on, and that they need to please and side with

I don't disallow nuance Phi for All. I expect it.

Edited December 18, 2015 by tar

[Willie71]

Tar, the Republican Party has mover significantly to the right over the past 30+ years. They are flirting with fascism quite dangerously now. Most republicans who are not politically informed have no idea what their party stands for. Criticizing the party stances isn't the same as criticizing its members, unless those members endorse those policy positions. Then those individuals are deserving of the criticism.

 

You know, with your examples above regarding the good people. I worked with murderers and rapists who did a lot of good things too. One act does not define a person, but good deeds don't erase bad deeds either.

[tar]

But in your mind there are only two options. I am either flirting with fascism myself, or too stupid to see my party is.

If I were to think you are supporting an authoritarian communist agenda by supporting Hilary and "It takes a village", or too stupid to see the unworkable path you are going down, you would not have any idea what I was talking about.

 

You don't think perhaps there is a workable average we can take?

As in perhaps you are a reasonable, moral person with good judgement, and I am a reasonable, moral person with good judgment and we should both work to keep the place working in a way that suits us both?

Was reading an article yesterday about the rise in hate crimes against Muslims lately and that there have been nearly 50 cases reported nationwide of vandalism, cursing and several examples of physical violence, and a few violent crimes.

 

The picture accompanying the article was that of a white, unsigned building, with the Paris peace sign painted on it.

 

Using iNow's statistical level of when we should be afraid, I don't think we have reached the threshold. We are still being rather unfascist.

Edited December 18, 2015 by tar

[iNow]

Please don't use my name to support your fatuous posts unless you're at least referring to something I've actually said that is actually relevant to whatever ambiguous point around which you happen to be meandering.

[tar]

In Poland, a NATO office was raided in the middle of the night by members of the new government. That is fascist.