What Is Americas Biggest Problem?

[Ten oz]

@ Capayan, I mostly agree with all of your last post. I think it is a bit overstated but not inaccurate. Tribalism is real but I do not think it is a huge a piece of our phycoligical pie as you might. Even in places where everyone is the same race and speaks the same language people separate themselves into groups based entirely on superfluous things. It starts in grade school. A diverse group of kids who all enjoy a specific game/book/music will form a "tribe" and proceed to bully other students. In those cases the tribe is one totally of personal preference. Tribes that start in grade school are about egotism and alpha behavior rather than ethnocentrism and evolutionary stress hormones. Humans compete for resources, attention, power, mates, and etc, etc, etc. Any individual or group that is perceived as an obstacle is resented. That is why tribes can be racial, religious, sexual, economic, craft related, or whatever. It is often more about what we want more so than who we genetically are.

[tar]

Ten Oz,

 

In regards to this thread though, the "we" "they" behavior is evident, from both sides. I am thinking that we feel superior to the other, by taking them down a notch. They of course do not think the degrading is appropriate.

 

Regards, TAR

And in regards to the point I am trying to argue in this thread, the "other" is always a human being with judgement, family, friends, company, state, religion, sports team, craft association, club, political party, favorite charity....and it is important to view everybody else on the planet, and everybody else in your country, as a member of one or another of every team you are on, or a potential member of a team you and the other could potentially found. If on the other hand your main way to feel good and superior is to make the other feel bad and inferior, the attempt to make yourself right and the other wrong, is more likely to weaken the country and make you afraid of your fellow countrymen, than to cause a situation where everybody sees it your way, and you are in control.

 

When I was growing up, I was stronger, faster and smarter than most of my peers. I was taught however to not rub it in anybody's face and to not calculate my own advantage, but to work toward the success of the team. And to NOT take advantage of people.

 

In this country we have a large amount of people with incredible skills, and abilities. I think it better to recognize that fact, and accept everybody as team members, in making this place a place where beauty and peace and security, and the pursuit of happiness is a common priority held by all our compatriots. We do not have to fear all whites because there once was a KKK, or all blacks because a slave once killed their master for raping their sister, or all Muslims because some flew planes into the world trade.

 

I will grant that not all citizens of the U.S. are saints, and not all are geniuses and not all are law abiding reasonable people, but it is not scientifically reasonable to fear whole groups, for the actions of a few, when the large portion of the group not only did not do the action, but would not do the action.

 

The majority of us follow the rules, and look out for each other. Look at any intersection. We stop when its red and go when its green. All of us.

 

Regards, TAR

Merry Christmas everybody. Or Happy Holidays if you please. It is a time of year when we think of peace on Earth and goodwill toward men.

 

Even those daft Chinese.

Edited December 25, 2015 by tar

[Ten oz]

In this country we have a large amount of people with incredible skills, and abilities. I think it better to recognize that fact, and accept everybody as team members, in making this place a place where beauty and peace and security, and the pursuit of happiness is a common priority held by all our compatriots.

Recongnizing that skills and abilities come from cooperation and education is important. Too often I see skills (not implying you do this) attributed to god or a persons natural ability. That is total nonsense. When human started cooperating and living in larger villages more knowledge and perspectives were passed around. Collectively we became smarter and more skilled as a result. We don't need to identify specifc people with specific skills much as we to understand that their is common good in provide everyone with education and opportunity.

 

 

We do not have to fear all whites because there once was a KKK, or all blacks because a slave once killed their master for raping their sister, or all Muslims because some flew planes into the world trade.

 

I find it interesting you merely state that the KKK existed with the only modifier being once was, for blacks you step it up notch describing a behavior but still softening it with once and partially justifying the action by casting it as retaliatory, and then for Muslims you describe a specifc event and drop all softening modifiers. In fact there is still a KKK, slaves both were raped and killed throughout an era, and Muslims only every ONCE flew planes into the world trade center. It may seem silly I point that out but there does tend to be inequity in the way you discuss Muslims in your posts. I agree with the point you were making however in making it you painted a more vivid picture of the bad done by Muslims. Perhaps you are not even aware you are doing it.

[tar]

Ten Oz,

 

You are right, I have reasons to take some "other" groups down a notch.

 

I know I do this, but think it required to pick sides on some issues.

 

There are situations, like the world trade, where somebody else made me their enemy. I have told the story many times in different contexts, that I read the Koran twice after 9/11, once for the just and once for comprehension, to ascertain where such evil as happened that day, could have come from. I still think that Muslims have some issues they have to work out, to coexist with me as a kafir.

 

And I have met personally several blacks whose main way of feeling good, is to "get over" on the man. If I am the man, in this particular conflict, or if I associate with the man, in many ways, my first and lasting impression, is that blacks that feel that way, "don't get it." And they perhaps have chosen not to be on my team.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited December 25, 2015 by tar

[Ten oz]

Ten Oz,

 

You are right, I have reasons to take some "other" groups down a notch.

 

I know I do this, but think it required to pick sides on some issues.

 

There are situations, like the world trade, where somebody else made me their enemy. I have told the story many times in different contexts, that I read the Koran twice after 9/11, once for the just and once for comprehension, to ascertain where such evil as happened that day, could have come from. I still think that Muslims have some issues they have to work out, to coexist with me as a kafir.

 

And I have met personally several blacks whose main way of feeling good, is to "get over" on the man. If I am the man, in this particular conflict, or if I associate with the man, in many ways, my first and lasting impression, is that blacks that feel that way, "don't get it." And they perhaps have chosen not to be on my team.

 

Regards, TAR

I pick sides; everyone does. I pick the side that uses force as an absolute last resort rather than as an exploitable advantage usable in to resolve all matters. There are literally ISIS members that weren't even born yet, or were small children, when 9/11 happened. For how many more years will 9/11 be our battle cry? How much longer will we be able to use that past event to justify our current actions? It is worth pointing out that everyone involved in orchestrating 9/11 is dead.

 

I have read the Holy Bible several times. I have even had large portions of it read to me by pastors who worked to explain what they were reading and to this day I still do not understand Christians. I read nothing but contradictions in the Bible that I am unable to line up with the what Christians believe or how they behave. Ultimately it takes faith or at least that what I have been told. For example the majority of Christians in the U.S. are pro capitol punishment despite Jesus not only preventing a stoning but allowing himself executed. I read that at anti death penalty yet most Christians do not. There are the words written in holy books and then separate from that there is what followers of those writings believe. Reading the Koran to yourself a couple times doesn't provide any true insight. You don't believe in it and you do not live that life style.

 

What we do here and now with regards to refugees is far bigger than ISIS. Thanks to climate change the world will be dealing with refugee issues every decade for the next century. If military force, regime change, and border closures is how we plan to proceed moving for that we (human race) is in big trouble. Now is a chance to look for better solutions. Worrying about it next time is not smart. Next time it may be even worse.

[tar]

Ten Oz,

 

I saw the other day that someone in India was beaten to death for eating a calf. It was obviously an evil, unacceptable act to the group that beat him.

 

A link I posted in the Paris thread, talked about ISIS dropping gays off of tall buildings.

 

People other than those that follow the U.S. constitution, and the laws of the U.S. do things differently than here.

 

There are many contradictions in the bible, and it is a very patriarchal and slavery oriented book. Perhaps we have made some progress since we burned witches and made blacks sit in the back of the bus, and believed that women should be barefoot and pregnant.

 

The new testament was a little better than the old testament, and the Protestants were better than the Catholics (from the "my team" Presbyterian perspective.)

 

I appreciate that areas looking for a better place to be, might want to move to the U.S...but those that are currently here, have fought the Indians for place, fought to get out from under British rule, and put together a way of life that works. We have protected our way of life for a while and built our country from peoples that came from mostly Europe, but from all the continents of the world. We mostly asked people coming from other places, with other rules of behavior to drop their old way, and pledge allegiance to the U.S. and support its constitution, learn our language, and follow our rules. Make themselves Americans.

 

It is a bigger thing than just Christian, or just Jew or just European, it is a core that is the melting pot of all those things.

 

You are picking sides with just pacifists. That is part of us, but not all of us. You can't throw the rest of us out. Especially those of us who sacrificed to protect the American way of life.

 

We eat veal here.

 

Regards, TAR

[Sorcerer]

Imperialism.

 

Economic dependency on the military industrial complex.

 

There needs to be a transition, abrupt or gradual, from government spending dominated by militarism to one dominated by investment in human resources. (Education, health care and social welfare).

 

Currently America is locked in a cyclic pattern of aggression to gain and maintain access to foreign markets and resoures, which encourages foreign aggression. This fosters a dependency on militarism to maintain this advantage. The loss of production from consumed arms and labour (hours and lives) makes holding this advantage less profitable, in terms of value to the majority. When compared to using those resources to further growth by investing in their own citizens.

[Ten oz]

 

I appreciate that areas looking for a better place to be, might want to move to the U.S...but those that are currently here, have fought the Indians for place, fought to get out from under British rule, and put together a way of life that works. We have protected our way of life for a while and built our country from peoples that came from mostly Europe, but from all the continents of the world. We mostly asked people coming from other places, with other rules of behavior to drop their old way, and pledge allegiance to the U.S. and support its constitution, learn our language, and follow our rules. Make themselves Americans.T

 

It is a bigger thing than just Christian, or just Jew or just European, it is a core that is the melting pot of all those things.

"but those that are currently here"- It is completely inaccurate to imply the majority of this country are direct ancestors of those who fought British rule. Waves of immigration swelled the population of the country. The Irish waves picked up the the 1840's, then the Itilians in the 1890's, followed by the Russians in 1900. From 1800 - 1900 approximately 5 million Irish, 4 million Italians, and 2 million Russians immigrated to the United States. Just those 3 groups alone total 11 million people. There was only 4 million people in the United States in 1790. From 1800 to 1900 the population grew by an incredible average of 30% a decade thanks to immigration.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h980.html

 

You are treating all with European heritage as founding groups who are rightful inheritors of this nation. Meanwhile there are millions of Black family and millions of Hispanic families who have been in this country centuries longer than many of the Eurpeans that arrived in the early 1900's. To Proudly proclaim that we are a country of immigrants yu must accept pluralism and resist the temptation to adopt hierarchy and create social stratification.

 

 

You are picking sides with just pacifists. That is part of us, but not all of us. You can't throw the rest of us out. Especially those of us who sacrificed to protect the American way of life.

 

We eat veal here.

 

Regards, TAR

 

Wanting my government to use Military force as a last result in pacifism?

[tar]

Ten Oz,

 

The pacifist thread I detected in you, was the same as I see in Sorcerer in the desultion of the military industrial complex. One can learn judo and also use it only as a last resort, in self defense. But if you don't go to self defense class, you don't know how to defend yourself.

 

We went through a large build down of our military forces, closing of bases and shrinking of our active duty personel. Now we don't have the numbers to engage in as many theaters as may be required to protect our way of life, and to protect others around the world that may be threatened by dictators and imans. Many of our military personnel are on their second and third tour of duty around the world. At the place I used to work, one of my friends who was an engineer and reserve member had to go overseas twice for extended periods of times and be away from his wife and daughter. His wife is now dead of cancer. Not the military's fault certainly, but if we had a larger and stronger active duty force, such pulling apart of families and businesses would not be required.

 

If you have ever been to a town where a U.S. military base is near, you would know that the economy of the place is based around the people on ,the base. The car dealerships, the restaurants, the bars, the stores, the churches, the schools, the shoe makers, are all reliant on the service men and women, and their families, for income. When the base closes, the town dies. There are also large towns built up to house the workers at defense plants and ship building facilities. These parts and pieces of the military industrial complex, are part of the fabric of our society. When you take them away you put people out of work. So these things, like having missile sites to protect against ballistic missile attack from Russia or China, serve a dual purpose, one to protect, and the other to engage ourselves in industrial endeavors.

 

One of my main ideas in this thread is to see each other as fellow members of a whole. Our status in the world is a composite result of all of our decisions both personal and political. Our main problem is not that our nose is too long. Our main problem is that we tend to cut off our nose, to spite our face.

 

Regards, TAR

I don't see a problem continuing to accept vetted refugees from war torn places. We have a process already in place for that. We do that. That is part of our charter.

 

Nowhere in the contract though, does it say we have to turn over our homes and neighborhoods that we have built, by having only two kids and working for 45 years, to somebody that doesn't like our way of life.

I frame the thing like this. I wrote a letter to the editor of Stars and Stripes, the army newspaper, when I was in Germany that was published that had two ideas in it. One, that one should not mistake compassion for weakness, and the other, that we should give up a few of our rights for the benefit of others, and 250 million people will give up a few of their rights for our benefit.
Or put in terms of this thread, you lose in a few ways so that others will win, and you will win in 300 million ways. You have countrymen and women, that have your back.

[Ten oz]

Ten Oz,

 

The pacifist thread I detected in you, was the same as I see in Sorcerer in the desultion of the military industrial complex. One can learn judo and also use it only as a last resort, in self defense. But if you don't go to self defense class, you don't know how to defend yourself.

 

We went through a large build down of our military forces, closing of bases and shrinking of our active duty personel. Now we don't have the numbers to engage in as many theaters as may be required to protect our way of life, and to protect others around the world that may be threatened by dictators and imans. Many of our military personnel are on their second and third tour of duty around the world. At the place I used to work, one of my friends who was an engineer and reserve member had to go overseas twice for extended periods of times and be away from his wife and daughter. His wife is now dead of cancer. Not the military's fault certainly, but if we had a larger and stronger active duty force, such pulling apart of families and businesses would not be required.

 

If you have ever been to a town where a U.S. military base is near, you would know that the economy of the place is based around the people on ,the base. The car dealerships, the restaurants, the bars, the stores, the churches, the schools, the shoe makers, are all reliant on the service men and women, and their families, for income. When the base closes, the town dies. There are also large towns built up to house the workers at defense plants and ship building facilities. These parts and pieces of the military industrial complex, are part of the fabric of our society. When you take them away you put people out of work. So these things, like having missile sites to protect against ballistic missile attack from Russia or China, serve a dual purpose, one to protect, and the other to engage ourselves in industrial endeavors.

 

One of my main ideas in this thread is to see each other as fellow members of a whole. Our status in the world is a composite result of all of our decisions both personal and political. Our main problem is not that our nose is too long. Our main problem is that we tend to cut off our nose, to spite our face.

 

Regards, TAR

 

I will not provide you my bio but I will share with you that I am extremely familiar with our Armed Forces: member strength, tour length, budgets, and etc. I just moved from San Diego to Washington DC, so yeah TAR, I completely understand what having bases do for a local economy. San Diego in particule is nothing if not a military town. Prior to that I have lived in San Francisco and have been on the abondon bases in Alameda and in San Fran itself. You are barking up the wrong tree with your last post.

 

Our military is the strongest in the world I have never once posted that it should not remain so. However military force has limitations. It can't do everything. That is the error we have been making since 9/11. Military force can topple governments but can't build democracies.

[tar]

Ten Oz,

 

 

I don't disagree. We had some service members killed a few days ago in Afghanistan, fighting the Taliban. A suicide bomber killed 6 and wounded many more. The province's economy is based on the poppy. We can not bring democracy to an area were the economy is based on illegal drug traffic.

 

Earlier the argument was that our neglect in stemming carbon monoxide emissions was causing global warming that would cause drought and famine and produce hordes of people that would need to come to our shores to survive. That argument completely neglects the fact that we have arranged our reservoirs in such a way as to be able to sustain us through periods of drought, and we have irrigation systems all over the central and west portions of our country that pull water from aquafers to produce food. We have met the problems with dams and wells and they are part of our complex. Others around the world can do the same. Make the choices to protect and develop water supply and desalinization plants and such. The smoke we billowed out in the 60s in our area is MUCH declined with scrubbers and alternate fuel sources and such. We as the U.S. have cleaned up our act to a larger degree than the Chinese and other second and third world nations. Perhaps it is our duty to help reduce emissions, but we do not have control of other people's economies. If a guy somewhere in the world wants to take the chill off at night by throwing a piece of dead wood on a fire, I should not stop him. Not unless I provide him with another way to keep warm.

 

Regards, TAR

When I was young we burned our fall leaves in the gutter. We don't do that any more.

But taxes had to go up, to buy the equipment and manpower to suck up the leaves and take them to a composting site. We bought our cleaner air. We pay for our clean water. I don't fertilize my lawn because our run off winds up in the Monksville reservoir. I, along with all my neighbors, act as stewards of the land and water, protecting wild life, carbon sequestering trees and the clean drinking water of many in North Jersey. Because I am registered republican, I am viewed as a bigot, greedy industrialist, war mongering, fearful xenophobe, and according to one argument championed by others in this thread, I am the biggest problem in this county, along with everybody that votes republican or leads the republican party. The fear among democrats is that if republicans have their way, the place will look like Nazi Germany. In actuality, the place looks like America, and its due to the hard work and sacrifice of Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and progressives, men and women, smart and dumb, rich and poor, straight and gay. We have no reason to fear ourselves. We are doing it right.

 

We have some problems, but so does everyone. The thing to do is to solve the problems together, as if they are our problems. Not consider that the problems are caused by "them".

That is, don't be afraid that the country will be either overrun by KKK Nazis or by ISIS fighters. TAR and Ten Oz, and every other American has your back, and will not let either happen.

[Ten oz]

@ TAR, is post #333 I wrote "Thanks to climate change the world will be dealing with refugee issues every decade for the next century". I did not say anything about our carbon emmissions, droughts, or the burden being on the United States to supply refugees with homes. I clearly said "the world will be dealing with" and continued to write that we needed more solutions than military use of forces oriented ones.

Despite our infastructure large portions of this country are being hit fairly hard by drought. It has already deeply cut into the beef industry in Texas. Drought alone isn't the only issue caused by climate of course and you know that. Many countries about the world will lose real estate or areas will be pounded by storms. The United States is part of the world community and many would argue its leader so it behooves use be proactive.

 

I would like to get your thoughts on the "white male morality" thread in speculations when you get a chance.

[tar]

Ten Oz,

 

I didn't read that thread. I have a rule to not participate in a thread unless I have read the whole thing. But to the extent that I am a white male, I probably have a thought or two on my morality. I was raised not to hit girls. My older sister could hit me, but I could not hit her. Didn't seem quite fair at the time, but it is a central lesson to my morality.

 

Several years ago, I had read a study of playground games played by boys and girls. Girls tended to play cooperative games that had no winners or losers. Boys tended to play games where teams were chosen and where there were winners and losers.

 

Men have testosterone and often act like a stag during rutting season, and will stand in the road and challenge a car in the road, snorting and pawing the pavement in defiance.

 

Men have an understanding with other men, and everybody knows whose territory they are in, and whose team they are on, and who is the leader.

Crypts are not going to strut around in Blood territory.

 

I am 62 now, and several years ago I cursed at a clerk at a supermarket for expecting me to pay 8 dollars for a weighed meal I had been getting at the same store for many months for closer to 5 dollars. Low T perhaps, as I never acted that way before in my life. I am more emotional now, than I used to be. The same Testosterone that can be thought of, by a woman, as a problem causing dominant and violent behavior, might also work to moderate behavior, and allow a male to handle stress and submission in a male wa y.

 

But this idea, of submission to your own authority might be a male thing, and not easily understood by a woman. So where I might play an inferior opponent at 80% effort level, because that is all that is required to make the game interesting, I am not going to like it, when I get hamstrung to even the playing field. That is, if I disagree with my boss, I say something, or I keep my mouth shut. I have no interest in somebody else telling me to keep my mouth shut. I would rather take the heat, if its going to get hot.

 

So that is the male part. Be your brother's keeper when your brother has your back.

 

The white part is the European part. Western civilization, the enlightenment, the crusades, the industrial revolution, WWI and WWII and the lessons learned of how to be. Where to stand in front of the steel vehicle with just flesh and blood, and where to protect the weak with your horn.s.

 

In the army I had roomates both black and white. In Germany I had two black roomates, one from California and one from the South and one white Swedish guy from Minnesota. The black guys had german girlfriends that they chatted up for sex and bribed with coffee and cigarettes that the girls would sell on the black market. The white roommate stayed faithful to his girl back home, and I, having lost my girl back home to her former boyfriend fell in love with a german girl, who I lost, when I would NOT provide her with coffee and cigarettes.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited December 26, 2015 by tar

[overtone]

Sorry about the vanish - I got pissed off at the mods for their dumbassery re GMOs, took a break before getting tossed.

 

Tar: You objected to the Common Core, a while back, describing it thus:

 

Overtone,

All children should learn these concepts, in this order, use these books that your local schoolboard will pay for, and the children will be tested, using school time, school buildings, and salaried employees as to whether or not they have learned the concepts, according to an imposed criteria and good teachers who have not taught to the test, or teachers with below average students, will be penalized and districts will lose federal money unless they comply.

None of that is in the Common Core Curriculum.

 

Your sources of information are deeply, badly, corrupt.

 

I posted, way back, an account of the sources of most of that bad stuff in the Federal Educational impositions - W's No Child Left Behind, Republican intransigence and refusal to cooperate in fixing it's problems, how and why the Republican John Kline finally managed to make headway after years of struggle against his own Party's misgovernance - and notice in that account that I do not like the Federal impositions on the school systems. I'm on your side, in the sense that we would both like to get rid of them. But there is no way to cooperate with you in that matter, if you regard these impositions as Democratic or Liberal and the Republican Party as a competent and honestly motivated ally. It's like trying to push a car out of the ditch, with 27% of the help choosing to sit in it and floor the brake pedal.

 

We have some problems, but so does everyone. The thing to do is to solve the problems together, as if they are our problems. Not consider that the problems are caused by "them".

So how do we "solve" the current disastrous nature of the Republican Party, and its effects on the US? Seriously: what do we do about the Republican Party we have now? It's getting more and more difficult to get information about it on the major media news outlets, even - the money is heavy, and talking loud.

 

That is, don't be afraid that the country will be either overrun by KKK Nazis or by ISIS fighters. TAR and Ten Oz, and every other American has your back, and will not let either happen.

But you obviously will let that happen. You will vote for it. You guys voted for W twice . Trump is currently leading Clinton among white males 35 - 65 in key areas; the demographic that voted for Palin rather than a competent black guy, that voted for Romney (the original source of "Obamacare") because they didn't like Obamacare, that endorses as a group a whole slew of batshit folly because it's "conservative", is lining up behind Trump. There's the Republican Party right on TV, more or less completely taken over by the "KKK Nazis" as you name it (it's called "fascism"), running mainstream legitimate candidates for President and being treated with respect, and you don't have my back at all. Whoever that Party nominates for President, the candidate of the "KKK Nazis", will have a decent chance of gaining the office, and you are considering whether or not you would vote for him yourself.

 

 

The white part is the European part. Western civilization, the enlightenment, the crusades, the industrial revolution, WWI and WWII and the lessons learned of how to be. Where to stand in front of the steel vehicle with just flesh and blood, - - -

Like this guy? https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2014/06/03/22/pg-31-tiananmen-6-ap.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/tiananmen-square-what-happened-to-tank-man-9483398.html&h=1536&w=2048&tbnid=iubnSGUbPXI0xM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=200&docid=tiBwv_JM3OXpNM&itg=1&client=safari&usg=__UltpcNZ16r9p3AFFADCB2MSTSWg=

 

The white, European, Western, enlightenment, industrial revolution, WWI and WWII part of that picture is the row of tanks. And maybe the streetlight.

Edited January 6, 2016 by overtone

[tar]

Overtone,

 

Was getting my snows on today and waited with a guy from Albania. Life is better here for his wife and kids, and he visits his brother and sister in Albania every 3 or 4 years.

 

My mechanic got a mailing from the NRA and complained that they just wanted his money, 1200 for a "Patriot" membership.

 

My point is, that Obama started with a house and senate that was of his party and could do just about wghatever they wanted to do. The American people voted Republican house members in, and then in the next election Republican senate members. Republican governors went from 21 to 31.

 

My point is, that the voter is not happy with doing it the way we have been doing it.

 

I am not for telling my country when to be progressive and when to be conservative. I am satisfied in leaning against the pendulum and trying to dampen the violent swings to the left and right. I would rather people just continually attempt to live up to the spirit of the constitution and to work together to find the proper balance between Federal Power and state power and to find the proper balance between pursuit of happiness and giving up a few of your rights for the happiness of others.

 

 

It is however important to recognize threats to the American way of life. And it is required to stand against presidential overreach and anarchists, at the same time. We are not just Overtones, and Ten Ozes and TAR that make this country a place where Albanians can come for a good life.

 

We are also the NRA member mechanics that make this place work.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited January 6, 2016 by tar

[tar]

Ten Oz,

 

Oh...mortality...nevermind.

 

 

Regards, TAR

 

I have not read that thread either, but reading the first few posts, I am reminded of a unvoiced speculation of mine that there is a certain emasculation going on in the last half century, that empowers the state at the expense of the personal control of the individual.

 

One of my theories on why people commit suicide is that it is a response to a loss of control over one's life. A desperate last attempt to have ultimate control.

 

As I age, I am not as strong and fast and agile and virile as I was when I was younger. In both mind and body I am a little less capable. Personally I can approach these weaknesses and use strategies to overcome the lessening of one strength with the use of other facilities. I might use a digging stick as a level and lift up a rock and have my wife put dirt under it and lift it onto the surface in this fashion, now, where when I was 18 I would have just yanked the thing out of the ground.

,

But when the state makes rules to protect the weak against my strength, I personally take offense. I already made sure I did not take advantage of others with my size and strength and intelligence. The power I accrued through the purchase of tools and motors, the education in trades and processes I pursue and whatever "strength" I should amass by lifting weights or investing, or saving, or purchasing a weapon, or joining clubs and associations and having "brothers and sisters" at my back, are things that give me personal control of my life and are direct results of me exercising good judgement and delayed gratification throughout my life. It is disturbing for the rules to change and for people to take from me, what I planned to be mine, so I could always have a strong say in how my life was to be lived.

 

For instance, I never purchased a weapon, because I had two daughters and would have had to keep the ammo separate from the weapon and locked to the extent that in an emergency I would take several minutes to become operative and would probably lose in that time any advantage that a weapon would give me. Plus I could accidently kill someone that was just trying to steal some money for drugs, and whose life should not be forfeited for such behavior. Plus, I knew some people who did have weapons, and if any emergency situation, like a riot or invasion, or revolution should come about, I knew where to go. However, if the rules change, and everybody has to outfit their guns with fingerprint checkers, I would have to reevaluate, since I would no longer be able to use one of my friend's weapons, in an emergency. I have always considered my neighbors to be people with good judgement and good values. I trust. If my government makes a rule that takes control of my situation from me, because my government does not trust me to use good judgement and be a good person, and the law negates the plans and effort, that I have be executing for 50 years, I am bound to feel a bit put upon.

 

A little emasculated. Past what age alone has inflicted.

 

This loss of control might be acceptable if strategies to regain control can be constructed. But a continual erosion of personal power might be taking a toll on the male phyche.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited January 7, 2016 by tar

[overtone]

My point is, that Obama started with a house and senate that was of his party and could do just about whatever they wanted to do.

Utter bullshit. Seriously.

1) Obama needed 60 votes in the Senate to pass anything opposed by the Republicans (who did vote Party line, and did filibuster almost everything they opposed), and the most Democrats he ever had in the Senate was 58. As luck had it, both Independents caucused with the Democrats, so 58 + 2 was enough as long as the Senate Dems all backed Obama without exception,

 

so for two months in 2009 Obama could get anything done that every single Dem in the Senate and more than 85% (about 218 of about 256) in the House supported: he had 58 votes in July and August of 2009, and then in October 2009 through January of 2010, but the Senate was not in session in August, November, or December, and did no legislative business in January:

 

so this magic time you imagine as Obama running the show and doing whatever he wanted was - at most, given complete Party Line Dem support - July of 2009, and October of 2009. And that was it. The rest was struggle. Mind you, 2009 was under W's trillion dollar deficit budget and W's war fiascos and in the middle of the Republican Crash of 2008 - so he didn't have much working room that year.

 

That situation was because the Republican Party from 2008 on organized itself to prevent the nation's business from being done so they could blame Obama for ineffectiveness and win the next Presidential election (that's not me guessing - that's what they said they were doing), and among their tactics was filibustering essentially everything - the judge appointments, the ambassadors, the agency heads, any legislation that had full Democratic support,

 

at one point a Republican Senator filibustered his own bill because Obama supported it.

 

2) There is no such "they" as you imagine. Unlike the Republicans, purified and disciplined by Gingrich in the 90s, the Dems didn't block vote and refuse compromise and crash the procedure rather than lose the debate. And there were and are many extremely conservative Dems - an entire caucus of them, called the Blue Dogs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Dog_Coalition - that often joined Republican efforts in those years, when there were still a few trappings of reasonableness stuck to the shoe of the monster Gingrich had created (and even after they fell off). So anyone considering themselves a conservative should refer to those Democrats as "we", not "they".

 

 

My point is, that the voter is not happy with doing it the way we have been doing it.

So find the Republican voter a mirror, and show him the cause of his pain. The Republican core voter is responsible for the way "we" have been screwing it up, and what they don't like is largely a consequence of their own voting. Almost everything in the US government the core Republican voter bitches about all day long is a direct consequence of the behavior of someone they voted for, repeatedly. This Party they've been backing is a horrible disaster, and it's wrecking their country.

 

 

I am not for telling my country when to be progressive and when to be conservative. I am satisfied in leaning against the pendulum and trying to dampen the violent swings to the left and right.

There have been no swings to the left in the US in your adult lifetime. On the left/right axis the US paused in the mid 1960s and has been moving to the right ever since, occasionally pausing but never once swinging back.

Edited January 8, 2016 by overtone

[tar]

Overtone,

​

I have been around the last 7 years. The democrats in congress were in control of the legislative process. What bills came up and such. The Republicans blocked what they did not agree with.

 

The republicans could not stop everything they disagreed with. We closed a lot of bases and weakened our military, quite without republicans being able to stop such.

 

Maybe I overstated, that Obama could do whatever he wanted, but he did do a number of things that Republicans did not want to see get done.

 

My point is, that party line voting is stupid. Stupid when a democrat does it, and stupid when a republican does it. The mischaracterization of the other persons position is the case whether it is the president accusing the congress of blocking common sense progress, or if it is the tea party accusing the president of weakening America in the eyes of the world.

 

I find it hard to believe that adults can not sit and talk these things out, to where a bill passes with 90 percent agreeing with it. If there is a poison pill embedded in a piece of legislation, take the darn thing out.

 

Regards, TAR

And there have been swings to the left. Gay rights, government regulations, Quantitative Easing, military base closing, Obamacare, anti gun, and swelling ranks in government social service agencies and Michael Moore type activism putting FEMA and other federal agencies in charge of local affairs, is left wing type activity in my book. Issues worth talking about, but some changes in the last 7 years have been shoved down our throats, without us being asked if we think the thing is the right thing to do.

 

Big city liberal thinking is not the total picture of how we think and how we want to see things go. There has to be a way to talk it out without demonizing the people you disagree with. Those people are equal citizens of the U.S. and deserve respect and a voice. Even when your party is in power.

 

Regards, TAR

[overtone]

And there have been swings to the left. Gay rights, government regulations, Quantitative Easing, military base closing, Obamacare, anti gun, and swelling ranks in government social service agencies and Michael Moore type activism putting FEMA and other federal agencies in charge of local affairs, is left wing type activity in my book

Your book is wrong.

 

Gay rights has nothing to do with left/right politics. Libertarians are found all along that axis.

 

Government regulations can be leftwing or rightwing - Authoritarians are found all along that axis.

 

Obamacare is rightwing. Quantitative easing by the private central bank is rightwing. Military base closing is neither (unless it involves selling government property to private capitalist concerns, contracting to corporations for former government services, etc - then it's rightwing). Anti-gun is neither (there are a lot of leftwing gun libertarians, and rightwing gun confiscators)

 

Ranks in government social service agencies have not swelled, while ranks in government police and security and "intelligence" and so forth have swelled. Michael Moore is not a government official, or anything like it, and does not put FEMA in charge of things - meanwhile, FEMA's powers have been reduced from earlier years (W did that, among other incompetencies), a swing to the right.

 

And so forth.

 

 

My point is, that party line voting is stupid.

And Party line voting has been Republican Party policy, enforced and demanded by Party leaders, since 1992 when Gingrich set out to purge the moderates and create what we see today in Congress.

 

Yes, it's stupid. But it's what the core 27% that has been voting for those guys obviously wanted - why else would they keep voting for it?

 

 

I have been around the last 7 years. The democrats in congress were in control of the legislative process.

For a little while immediately after the Crash. They tried to form a coalition with the Blue Dogs and the small Lefty contingent and so forth, get some Party unity facing the disciplined Republicans. And they did get a lot done, considering, But the Republicans were devoted to making sure the legislative process could not get anything done favorable to the President, then and ever since, and they were effective. Granted they couldn't stop everything, but they could stop most things - and they did. Constant committee fights and poison bills and disruptive maneuverings. Hundreds of filibusters -literally.

 

The mischaracterization of the other persons position is the case whether it is the president accusing the congress of blocking common sense progress, or if it is the tea party accusing the president of weakening America in the eyes of the world.

Except it isn't "mischaracterization" when it's accurate. The President is saying true things, and the Republicans are saying false things. There is a difference. There is a reality. Government is not a "he said, she said" sandbox.

Edited January 9, 2016 by overtone

[Ten oz]

@ TAR, I responed to your post regarding suicide in the suicide thread.

[tar]

Overtone,

 

OK, I accept that I might have my book wrong and certain impositions might just be impositions, and authoritative in nature, but that can come from the left or the right. The most important thing here though to overcome, to make my point in this thread correct and your point incorrect, is that once we think ourselves correct and the other guy incorrect, we are likely to try and enforce our will on the other guy. Better to find the 90 ways you are on the same team as the other guy than to find the 10 ways you are not.

,

Regards, TAR

 

As I have said before, if you think corporate chiefs, stock holders, skin heads, gays, drug addicts, thiefs, liers, religious zealots, valley girls, construction workers, salesmen, and Holywood and members of the military industrial complex, and lawyers and bankers and organized crime, and gang members and NRA members and country club members and .... are wrong, there is nobody left to be right.

 

Regards, TAR

[overtone]

OK, I accept that I might have my book wrong and certain impositions might just be impositions, and authoritative in nature, but that can come from the left or the right.

Sure they can. But in the current reality, the Republican Party is the main source of bad stuff, and a source of essentially no good stuff.

 

The most important thing here though to overcome, to make my point in this thread correct and your point incorrect, is that once we think ourselves correct and the other guy incorrect, we are likely to try and enforce our will on the other guy.

The decent people and adult citizens of the US have a moral duty to enforce the will of free and civilized people on the current Republican Party. It's community self defense.

 

 

Better to find the 90 ways you are on the same team as the other guy than to find the 10 ways you are not.

The Republican Party is most definitely not on my team. My team does not incorporate such agenda and behavior, and I would abandon it immediately if it did.

 

 

As I have said before, if you think corporate chiefs, stock holders, skin heads, gays, drug addicts, thiefs, liers, religious zealots, valley girls, construction workers, salesmen, and Holywood and members of the military industrial complex, and lawyers and bankers and organized crime, and gang members and NRA members and country club members and .... are wrong, there is nobody left to be right.

As I have said before, I don't. Why do you keep posting that?

 

And what difference would it make to me, of there was nobody left to be right? I don't need any help typing these things.

Edited January 10, 2016 by overtone

[tar]

Overtone,

 

if you are the only one left to be right, the correctness of your position would be quite moot.

 

I keep saying the thing about all the people facets of human behavior you find wrong, to point out that we all have these proclivities and need to together moderate our behavior to take the other guy into account. You don't take Republicans into account, and that is the major problem in the country at the moment.

 

Regards, TAR

[overtone]

if you are the only one left to be right, the correctness of your position would be quite moot.

Fortunately for the mootitude of the correctness of my position, however irrelevant here, it is shared by many.

 

 

You don't take Republicans into account, and that is the major problem in the country at the moment.

It is you, not me, who is failing to take the Republican Party into account.

 

 

I keep saying the thing about all the people facets of human behavior you find wrong, to point out that we all have these proclivities and need to together moderate our behavior to take the other guy into account

It is the political facets of Republican Party that I find wrong. "We" don't all have the political proclivities, agenda, and tactics of the Republican Party. It is a damaging agenda, and horrible behavior, and something has to be done about it if we care about our country.

 

 

You don't take Republicans into account, and that is the major problem in the country at the moment

Nobody in the entire country has been more taken into account, catered to, granted privilege and power unearned - for forty five years now - than Republicans. Edited January 10, 2016 by overtone

[Ten oz]

It is so hilarious. People have been saying Trump has no chance because most of us assume Republican are sane. Meanwhile Republicans seem to be treating that as a challange and rallying to prove everyone wrong by nominating Trump. Better than fiction!