What Is Americas Biggest Problem?

[overtone]

Therefore if universal health care would be unaffordable for the government to take on, as a single payer, you completely ignore the reality of the situation, the dollars and cents, and say instead that the drug companies are greedy and the insurance companies are greedy and the republicans are stupid and cruel for saying the thing simply will not work.

There is a reality. There is not just two sides, ok, but also a physical reality involved here.

 

In that reality, 34 governments are already running universal health care setups that they can afford, despite being much poorer countries than the US.

 

In that reality, the US government is already running a huge single payer insurance program, easily capable of incorporating every citizen, that is much cheaper and slightly better performing than the private ones - Medicare. And that is in spite of Medicare being forbidden, by law, to drive costs down lower than the inefficient and high cost private insurance companies can follow.

 

In that reality, the drug companies are greedy and the insurance company executives are greedy and the Republican Party officials and media folks are stupid and cruel for lying about the situation.

 

 

 

Then when the country votes in people campaigning for congress on the basis of repealing Obamacare, you say they want to make Obama look bad because they are bigots.

Well, yes. Don't you agree? Why else would they be working so hard to repeal something that was their idea in the first place?

 

 

 

Anyway I have on many occasions addressed the behavior of the party and their standing in the way of what you would call progress. You however do not allow that the status quo might be such because it works.

The new status quo, the one introduced in 1980 by Ronald Reagan, is not working. Seriously not working.

 

 

, then vote for Hilary or Sanders. If they win then we will do it your way for 4 years.

Please. That's not a promise your Republican Party will, or even can, keep. What the Republican Party will do if a Dem wins is the same thing it's been doing for eight years now - lie, slander, cheat, steal, thieve, encourage violence, vandalize the machinery of government, damage the United States in its domestic and foreign efforts for their own political advantage and - especially - provide tax and regulatory advantages for their corporate backers.

Edited January 27, 2016 by overtone

[tar]

Overtone,

 

I understand your desire to have an enemy to vilify. I believe it to be a human nature type of situation. I have in many threads based my thinking around what Pinker says about language and how we frame things such that the first person is good the second person neutral and the third person bad. As in I am exploring my sexuality, you are loose, and she is a slut. All talking about the same thing but framing it differently when it involves the self, or an addressee, or an outside party.

 

But let's take a real example of a horrible thing, and frame it in our minds as if it is us, or a friend, or a fellow citizen who has been responsible for the thing to have happened.

 

We were talking earlier about the occupation out West of Federal lands by Ranchers. About the guy with successful children and a gun in his lap who would rather die than live in prison. He is now dead.

 

Did "WE" kill him?

 

Was he a fellow citizen, to where he was one of "us"?

 

My argument in this thread is that when you consider for whom the bell tolls you should understand it tolls for thee.

 

Your argument is that since Reagan we have been doing it wrong, and since the Tea Party we have been doing it really wrong. But you do not allow as that "we" have bee n doing anything right during my entire adult life.

 

Right now the country is split really badly and huge populace movements are lining up behind Trump and Sanders. Both of those individuals are not who I would like to see as president. Bernie way too socialist, talking about revolution and the destruction of the billionaire class, and Donald way too full of himself and unthoughtful, like a petulant child, who I would be very uncomfortable giving the nuclear codes to.

 

But we put the birds over the rancher.

 

This is our country, our world, we should take care of each other and take care of it, together. We can not do it without the rancher or the banker or the billionaire or the army. We cannot do it without you, Overtone, and we can not do it without me.

 

Perhaps we can do without ISIS and without the KKK. But we cannot do without progressives and we cannot do without those who maintain the status quo.

 

My most important theme over the last two years, in understanding language, and people and the objective world and subjetctive human existence in the world we are of and in, is that other people matter and that human judgement matters and other people, other than me are already doing it right. Most times, as right, if not more right, than I am doing it myself.

 

I make a conscious effort to put myself in the other person's shoes and try to understand where they are coming from. What they are doing, and why. Where they get their "wins", and what can I do to support those things that are wins for me and wins for them too.

 

People already do this. I am not the first to think of it...but the idea does not wash if you don't allow bankers and oil executives and all the people Hilary and Sanders and you want to defeat, to be equal citizens and fellow humans, fellow Americans who want to win just as badly as you and I do, and who already are on our side.

 

.

.

 

 

 

 

Regards, TAR

[Ten oz]

Phi for All,

 

I have been telling you the craziness and unworkability of the progressive stances, but you, being a progressive don't hear it.

 

For instance, you already believe that universal healthcare is a human right. Therefore if universal health care would be unaffordable for the government to take on, as a single payer, you completely ignore the reality of the situation, the dollars and cents, and say instead that the drug companies are greedy and the insurance companies are greedy and the republicans are stupid and cruel for saying the thing simply will not work.

You are complaining here about what you believe Phi for All would do "if" and not addressing the reality of what is. It is an empty self serving extrapolation. Predicting how Phi for All would feel about something "if" it were tried and then failed as a justification to not try in the first place is absurd.

 

Then when the country votes in people campaigning for congress on the basis of repealing Obamacare, you say they want to make Obama look bad because they are bigots. Never once would you think we don't have the money for it, unless we raise taxes. You say its fine to raise taxes because you are going to just tax multimillionaires, who are already the people providing jobs and capital for the country's growth. You say it is doable and you point to social democracies that have done it and say anybody who is not a socialist is anti-American and anti poor and cruel and stupid and greedy and obstructionist.

 

A heck of a lot more people voted in the two national elections ran on enacting Obamacare (ACA) than voted during the mid season elections campaigned on repeal. Ultimately the House voted on it, Senate voted on it (super majority to break fillibuster), Presidented signed it, and the Supreme Court upheld it. On top of that States opt in. That is it!!! That is every level of our governement TAR. Approved at every level. At what point do opponents have an obligation to give an ounce of their energy towards helping it work?

 

You completely don't hear me, or do not believe me, when I say I don't think universal health care will work. When Greece goes into austerity measures, that does not slow you down. When Marketplaces go bankrupt and the strategy doesn't work, you say its because the Republicans got the insurance companies all involved, and the actuaries kept raising the fees and deductibles and you forget that the higher costs are to cover more people for more things. And you ignore the fact that we are not a socialist country and we are more capitalist then communist. All of our medical institutions have grown to the situations they are in, organically. People responding to government rules and proscriptions, appropriately to make health care better for everybody. We already do the thing, and its not good enough for you, unless we go to a single payer system.

 

We do not have Greece's system so they are meaningless to the point you are making. Just an empty attempt to say that socialist system do work. More over Greece is hardly the standard. The rest of this is free of specifics or contexts. "When market places go bankrupt", which market places, where, and when? Surely you don't mean all and everywhere? "kept raining raising fees and deductibles and you forget the high costs", this statement is all past tense; did this already happen TAR? Did we already move to a single payer system that raised fees and we all ignored it? Is this a projection of your worst fears are something yu are trying to say has happened?

 

If the country wanted and single payer system and would be happy to pay for a single payer system, and happy to live with the government telling us when and which health care to have, and the thing looked workable and fair and affordable...we would have it. But there are people that do not like the government to tell them what to do and when to do it when it comes to personal business. I don't want anybody telling me not to smoke, or to get sterilized, or to loose weight, or to get psychological help because a yell at someone, or any number of things that might be proscribed by a system, that reduces my ability to exercise my own judgement. I don't want to live in a communist country.

 

If the country wants it indeed. That is why it is on the table for discussion. The fact that we don't currently have it is not a legitimate reason to shelve it from consideration.

 

And if I have a status quo mentality, you call me ignorant. If a crazy guy shoots up a school or church you say its my fault, for voting for republicans. Banning automatic weapons is a good idea, banning assault style weapons is potentially a good idea, but is only the next step after banning assault weapons. The craziness is when some liberal suggests that hunters should pay a high fee for their gun license to pay for gang gun violence. It is not fair and reasonable and misses the point. If drugs and guns are a problem then the drugs that are a problem should be targeted and the guns that are a problem should be targeted, and that is mostly gang guns, illegal guns. Legal guns get into the hands of drug lords and gangs, but these things are not caused by the hunter, or even the libertarian out in the woods with his abissault style weapon, waiting for helter skelter. If though, I think it correct to ban handgrenades and artillery pieces and automatic weapons, but think it fine to trust my neighbor with a firearm, without special government tests on....

WTF......? If guns are a problem target gangs, if drugs are a problem target gangs, if gangs are a problem yu trust your nieghbors with guns. This is rant isn't even circular logic. Have no idea what you are trying to say here.

 

Anyway I have on many occasions addressed the behavior of the party and their standing in the way of what you would call progress. You however do not allow that the status quo might be such because it works. And you completely disallow the possibility that you might be wrong to attempt to change something that is already working. And you forget that the world is not going to change to suit you. You have to behave as if you wish to continue to help the world work.

What is already working? Above you have mentioned a theoretical single payer system that doesn't actually exist, guns, gangs, Capitalist Communists, and Greece. Which bit are you specifically referencing here as a status qou that is working which Phi for All is ignoring?

 

 

 

If on the other hand you persist in telling me my way of life and my ideology is bankrupt and I either don't know what I am doing, or I am being on purpose an asshole, in either case you are saying that how I have lived, what I have accomplished, what evil I have stood against, and what people I have supported has been for naught.

 

I flat out reject that notion, and say instead that if you are embarrassed by my behavior and my ideals and my hopes for America and for my fellows and the direction I would like to see the country take, then vote for Hilary or Sanders. If they win then we will do it your way for 4 years. If someone else wins, like Bloomberg, or Bush. or Trump (god forbid), or Paul then we will do it their way for 4 years.

No one is passing judgement on your life; just lamenting about your posting style.

 

 

 

Regards, TAR

It would be better if we talked it through, listened to each other and did it the way that 90 percent of us thought would be a good idea. That includes respecting the opinions, hopes and desires of bankers, drug companies and religious folk. They are equal Americans.

 

That is what we attempt to do. However some people confuse respecting an opinion with compromising for the sake of appeasement. At work when I lend a suggestion that isn't incorporated into the plan I move on. The world doesn't stop for everything everyone has to say.

[Phi for All]

It would be better if we talked it through, listened to each other and did it the way that 90 percent of us thought would be a good idea. That includes respecting the opinions, hopes and desires of bankers, drug companies and religious folk. They are equal Americans.

 

I don't respect the religious folks who try to mix their Church in with my State. I don't respect bankers who support predatory lending, looser regulation in finance, and continuing to do what they do with impunity and apparent immunity. I don't respect drug companies who do what bankers do. To me, these people aren't equal Americans either in spirit or deed. They've shown no respect for the country that gives them their corporate charters, and demand respect as a job-giver. They have no allegiance to America, as they've shown repeatedly by their actions. Business is a one-way, take-only street these days, where the corporations make sure the representative government of the People they're about to pillage has no teeth at the bargaining table.

 

To me, your arguments are like insisting we have to keep everything we've ever bought. You would argue that medical insurers have a right to their profits even though it's been shown to you that we can have a great healthcare system without them. You argue that's not fair, like we should still be riding horses or traveling by balloon because cars and jets are unfair. Progress terrifies you so much you horde systems and behaviors that have become less than adequate. Why don't you let private healthcare insurance go the way of the dodo, Blockbuster, and the Edsel? Isn't that how capitalism should work?

 

Also, your arguments against a government sponsored healthcare system similar to what so many successful countries have are so bizarre, I have to try one more time to make you understand. You keep talking about the cost, and how we'll pay for it, and when people show you it will be cheaper (no question about it if we follow an established model), and more effective and efficient, you keep yammering about how we'll pay for it. GODDAMMIT, what is your problem with math?! You'll pay less in increased taxes than what you'd pay to an employer for coverage, so you actually save money, SO WILL YOU PLEASE STOP QUESTIONING HOW WE'LL PAY FOR IT?!?!

 

It's like you let your distrust of change block all your reasoning skills.

[Willie71]

This is worth a watch. The well researched book by Jane Mayer explains the takeover of the government by a few hundred oligarchs. She is interviewed by Tom Hartman.

 

 

 

Tar, tell me how this is good enough.

 

 

Your arguments that you claim people don't believe, aren't believed because these arguments have been fact checked and proven to be lies. There is ample evidence showing how inaccurate the claims of the Republican Party are. You regurgitate them as if they should still be taken seriously. They are proven lies.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Willie71

[tar]

Willie71,

 

I don't have Koch type wealth. They did not pay me anything to have the opinions I have. I don't side with them or against them. They have wealth and power and they wield it. Nothing new in this country. When I drive on the highway I am happy that someone built it. The money it took to build it and put together the construction companies and the money it takes to do any big project is not the kind of money I deal in.

 

There are rich and powerful families in this country. Old money, new money, people that own the studios and radio stations, people that own the sports teams, people that own the factories and the land and the mines and what ever. We have private ownership in this country. The state does not have the right, under normal circumstances to nationalize industry. As such, if we are fighting a war, like WWII, and we need to mobilize industry, we go to a few industrial leaders to get the job done. These people are not my enemy, just because they are rich.

 

Regards, TAR

[Ten oz]

@ TAR, I try to empathize with you; I tuly do. I try imagine your feeling abscent of my own personal judgement and see the world through your eyes. Doing so I see similar tendecies in myself. When I read about people demanding $15 a hour as a minimum wage for entry level work part of me reflects on the time I spent making less than a third as much and how many year I spent working my way up just to see $10 a hour much less $15. I see kids taking on incredible amounts of debt attending college and part of me feels they should be working full time, attending a 2yrs school first, saving money, and then transfering to a University. I see a world that is changing and by direct comparison to my idealized youth it simple doesn't messure up in terms of hard work, self reliance, and etc.

 

Thing is that is all just noise. I am sure when Upton Sinclair's The Jungle came out there were people who had done hard labor as kids felt the upcoming generation simply didn't know hard work the way they had. The attitude goes all the way back to when fire was first used. All the humans who had spent winters without fire thought those who grew up with fire were soft...haha. That is no way for a government to manage policy though. Constantly looking to ensure everyone has it bad as everyone who came before them.

 

I also see the mortality you feel. You won't be here forever and that is more immediate today than it was 40yrs ago. I see in my own life the way places I use to go are torn down and gone. Once great people or institutions are no more. There is a tangible feeling that my world is slipping away. Then I step back and remember that it isn't my world. It doesn't belong to me.There are billions on this rock. That thing that I once treasured which was torn done and replaced by something else whcih is now someones else memorable thing. Everyones little girl will become someone else wife and their kids will become anothers grand parents. The feeling that my world is slipping is egocentric and fleeting. I own no one and nothing. There is no my world; never was. I am part of the world and not its owner.

 

This is just a chat on the internet. You lose nothing by entertaining the thoughts of others. There is nothig to be won or lost. So why be stubburn? Why not step back for a few posts and try to play devil's advocate against yourself? Try to look at the ways evil socialist medical systems have worked Try be part of this discussion rather than just stakig out a position and owning it.

[Willie71]

Willie71,

 

I don't have Koch type wealth. They did not pay me anything to have the opinions I have. I don't side with them or against them. They have wealth and power and they wield it. Nothing new in this country. When I drive on the highway I am happy that someone built it. The money it took to build it and put together the construction companies and the money it takes to do any big project is not the kind of money I deal in.

 

There are rich and powerful families in this country. Old money, new money, people that own the studios and radio stations, people that own the sports teams, people that own the factories and the land and the mines and what ever. We have private ownership in this country. The state does not have the right, under normal circumstances to nationalize industry. As such, if we are fighting a war, like WWII, and we need to mobilize industry, we go to a few industrial leaders to get the job done. These people are not my enemy, just because they are rich.

 

Regards, TAR

Rich is not the issue. Buying the government to give them the advantage at the expense of everyone else is. Getting government contracts that amount to monopolies, or getting laws that put competitive products at an unfair, unnatural disadvantage, is a problem. You think these guys got wealthy through hard work? Sure, there was hard work, but getting in bed with Stalin and Hitler isn't something to brag about. The rules were set to make sure you would never be able to take much of the pie. This is a good system to you? Edited January 28, 2016 by Willie71

[tar]

Ten Oz,

 

I am all for yielding the world to my kids, but the underlying issue here, in terms of my place in the chain, is did I appreciate what was given to me, did I maintain it and make it better and am I leaving behind some contribution to humanity. I have not yet done that thing. Maybe I have in the sense that both my kids are honest, kind hardworking people. And perhaps my daughter, one year from a PhD in chemical research will add a little something to the world or my other daughter one mod away from medical assistant. Maybe I added a little something in my role of helping to bring the copying industry into the digital age. But we work with what we are given and put the next layer on the cake. In terms of the discussion of socialized medicine, I am still remembering when health benefits were a perk that a corporation offered to attract and keep great employees. Somewhere along the line that morphed into businesses owing healthcare to their workers and now that has morphed into healthcare being a human right.

 

My thought here is that food is not even a human right. You have to work for your bread.

 

We. as the U.S. owe trillions of dollars to bond holders and holders of treasury notes. Some old ladies who saved and invested all their lives, some old men that saved and invested all their lives, some rich spoiled kids that inherited the wealth from their daddies and the governments and bankers all around the world that view the credit of the U.S. as a good bet. We are borrowing for our kids to pay back. Someone needs to pay the piper. It is fine to say, "we are a rich country, we can afford universal health care", but the current system is bloated and whacky and tacking bigger numbers on to our children's tab is not fair to them.

 

Phi's main argument is that other countries manage to do it, so the numbers will work out, we just need to give it a chance, but we are bigger and more diverse than some smaller, homogeneous nation in Europe. It well could go a foul around here, because people like me don't feel it fair to make me pay insurance premiums, and deductables and higher taxes and see the debt burden on my daughters grow, so somebody on welfare, who needs an operation, can get it for free. Plus private property is a standard idea in the U.S.. You don't walk on somebody else's lawn and you don't take fruit off their fruit trees and you don't pick flowers and tomatoes from their garden.

 

My paycheck should get the same respect from Phi. And being that I am currently unemployed, my savings should be respected, and not taxed for the public good, as if I came upon the wealth by accident of birth. If we are privileged in this country it is because our forefathers and the people around us, build the place. Built the systems, built the infrastructure, built the internet, built the parks, built the factories, built the ports, built the hospitals. They did not just spring out of the ground, ready to go.

 

I heard today on the radio, that millennials were demanding affordable housing within walking distance of the workplace???????????

 

Everybody wants prime real estate. That is why it costs so much. There is only a finite supply and a large demand.

 

Regards, TAR

 

.

I was at Morristown Hospital last year visiting my dad in ICU and leaving, I ran into a group of obviously rich donors in the lobby that were coming through to view the art put up on the walls by some local artists, Rich people already care about supporting hospitals and helping doctors and nurses and staff bring quality care to sick and injured folk. We have already been doing this. It is not a new idea. Health care is not a thing that is being withheld from the masses by the elite. It is one of the many perks of living in a prosperous society...already. I do not think it is me who can't add.

and as a follow up to the single payer medicaid example, I noted today that hearing tests and hearing aides are not covered by medicaid because a large number of older people have hearing loss, and it would cost too much to provide everybody with a hearing aide

Edited January 28, 2016 by tar

[overtone]

I understand your desire to have an enemy to vilify

You're "understanding" (when you can't even get my posts straight) is irrelevant. The Republican Party is America's biggest problem right now no matter what role my supposed human nature had in identifying it.

 

 

We. as the U.S. owe trillions of dollars to bond holders and holders of treasury notes. Some old ladies who saved and invested all their lives, some old men that saved and invested all their lives, some rich spoiled kids that inherited the wealth from their daddies and the governments and bankers all around the world that view the credit of the U.S. as a good bet. We are borrowing for our kids to pay back. Someone needs to pay the piper.

Thank you Republican Party Reaganomics and Republican Party warmongering. Another little gift from America's biggest problem.

 

That Party will keep on enabling profiteers by ballooning the US debt, public and private, until they are stopped or they create another crash.

It is fine to say, "we are a rich country, we can afford universal health care", but the current system is bloated and whacky and tacking bigger numbers on to our children's tab is not fair to them.

Dude, for the umpteenth time: good and timely medical care for everybody is cheaper. Everywhere it's been tried, every time it's been tried, it's been cheaper. In the other 33 First World setups it's cheaper. Medical care, like roads and sewers, is something that pays off, saves you money in the long run.

 

And "Our current system is bloated and whacky" does not mean we should stick with it. It means our current system should be changed. It should be changed to something that's cheaper and works better, like other people have.

 

 

but we are bigger and more diverse than some smaller, homogeneous nation in Europe.

Most of the countries of Europe are bigger and more diverse than most of the States of the US.

 

The Republican Party is currently losing its marbles over 11 million immigrants into a country of 300 million people. And most of them speak English. They have jobs. They pay taxes. They aren't even Muslim.

Edited January 28, 2016 by overtone

[tar]

Overtone​,

 

​​I am a republican. I don't like the idea of a wall, at all. I think personally we should simply enforce the laws we have and accept people legally into the country, consistent with our immigration policies. The border states should be supported in preventing undocumented workers from taking advantage of our good hearts. Mexico should get a better handle on their drug lords and we should not encourage children to come to the US to be protected. They have families and a country and their families and countries should have primary responsibility for their well being. I am not losing my marbles over the thing.

 

You may feel I misread your posts, and blame you for hating republicans when you just hate the Koch brothers and the military industrial complex and Bush and Cheney and Reagan and Fox and the purchased press and lobbyists, but if I would associate with the Koch brothers and be impressed by their wealth and power or have been a soldier and part of the military industrial complex, and have voted for Bush and watched Fox and read newspapers and known people with long guns behind their front door, and known people exploring the nation for gas and oil and part of the fracking industry and such...then I am your enemy and the guy you constantly rail against for ruining the county and being the biggest problem in America. But while you are right, you are also wrong, because I am also the guy that lets you in on the highway, and stops and picks up your garbage can when it has blown into the street, made your copier work, made your fax work, made your scanner work, keep the Soviet Union from invading West Germany with tanks, lived next door to a drug addict who locked her bedroom door to keep her kids from stealing her drugs, wanted to rid Iraq of Saddam, wanted to rid the world of Bin Laden, wants to rid the world of ISIS, and would like to see people not be enabled to be leeches on my society, not be enabled to disrespect the law, and would like to more that all maintain my peaceful, beautiful house in the suburbs and live free of fear and ugliness, repression and hatred. I want to love and respect my neighbors and I want to extend a hand to anyone in trouble. I do not owe the world any more than I have been giving for the last half century. I take offense at you vilifying me and my desires, and your ideals of a better way, are not realistic. They are in your mind alone and do not take into account that the majority of Americans are not as smart as you, and it would be better for you to help them when they need it, than to construct an enemy in your mind, that in actuality are not the great satin you make us out to be.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited January 28, 2016 by tar

[DrP]

QUOTE TAR: "keep the Soviet Union from invading West Germany with tanks"

 

Impressive feat Tar! - well done.

 

QUOTE:"maintain my beautiful house....etc."

 

nothing stopping you there..

 

Quote: "want to extend a hand to anyone in trouble"

 

OK - except those that can't find a job or can't afford to pay for their own health care?

 

 

I understand you want your daughter to do well and finish her Ph.D. I hope she does excellently. some still struggle to feed their daughters and keep then out of the kind of trouble that the depression from being in their situation can lead too. Shame others just think "I'm alright Jack" and do not care (usually from a lack of understanding) about the plight of the lower classes, the people you want to keep from having hospital care and food, you know, the people in the ghettos. You see drug users and pushers and hores and scum where others see human beings in trouble, neglected by the system that ensures they stay where they are regardless of their intelligence or skill or aptitude.

[tar]

democrat

republican

independent

trump supporter

[Ten oz]

Ten Oz,

 

In terms of the discussion of socialized medicine, I am still remembering when health benefits were a perk that a corporation offered to attract and keep great employees. Somewhere along the line that morphed into businesses owing healthcare to their workers and now that has morphed into healthcare being a human right.

Go back far enough and fruits and vegetables use to be seasonal perks humans only got to eat specific times of the years when they were lucky enough to come across them. First couple jobs I had didn't offer healthcare and I had to build up my resume to earn a job that did, so what. Providing people access to healthcare in the long run is cheaper than using our very expensive police force and legal system to deal with mental disorders and addictions on our streets. Better than the damage caused to family structures as they struggle amongst themselves to figure how and who should help pay for and take care of grandpa. And of course there are young hardworking people out there who prior to getting up the ladder of success take a spill of some ice while heading to work and wind up needing a hospital visit. Treating healthcare like a perk is sort of like playing monopoly with people's lives. If they land on the wrong square too bad so sad for them. That isn't healthy for society. In monopoly there can only ever be a lone victor. We should strive to help make the most people win that we can.

 

 

My thought here is that food is not even a human right. You have to work for your bread.

There was a day when you were solely depended upon others. You did not step out the whom earning all your received. I spent at least the first several years of my life just being given food, shelter, an education, love, etc without being asked to do a single thing for it. And the day will come when you and I are too old to contribute will again need to efforts of other to feed, house, and protect us. You say even food isn't a right yet I bet you would climbed the tallest mountain and slayed the biggest dragon to ensure your family had food without expecting anything from them in return. We are a communal species. We need each other. Corperation is how we evolved. It is important that we care about each other. Mutual trust within a society is a huge part of where our sense of safety and security comes from. Team work grew the first crops that made bread possible. He would all still be hunter gathers if everyone throughout history had the attitude you are prescribing.

 

We. as the U.S. owe trillions of dollars to bond holders and holders of treasury notes.

All money is debt. That is how our system works. Our system can only grow and create new money through debt.

 

 

 

Phi's main argument is that other countries manage to do it, so the numbers will work out, we just need to give it a chance, but we are bigger and more diverse than some smaller, homogeneous nation in Europe.

What does being diverse have to do with anything? Why exactly is being more racially diverse be a road block?

 

 

It well could go a foul around here, because people like me don't feel it fair to make me pay insurance premiums, and deductables and higher taxes and see the debt burden on my daughters grow, so somebody on welfare, who needs an operation, can get it for free.

and I don't think any of my tax dollars should go towards military operations I oppose, police enforcement of drug laws I disagree with, and etc. That isn't how it works. A person doesn't only contribute to public education if they have school age children whom will receive the benefit. Moreover the safety net programs are cost effective. They stimulate more revenue than they use.

 

 

our forefathers and the people around us, build the place. Built the systems, built the infrastructure, built the internet, built the parks, built the factories, built the ports, built the hospitals. They did not just spring out of the ground, ready to go.

Where did that money come from; to build the infrastructure you reference? No taxation, just donations from salt of the earth patriots?

 

 

I heard today on the radio, that millennials were demanding affordable housing within walking distance of the workplace???????????

 

Everybody wants prime real estate. That is why it costs so much. There is only a finite supply and a large demand.

 

This is how progress begins. You start with a goal than work to achieve it. Cities control how they zone. Perhaps areas currently zoned for business can be change to residential, perhaps new public transportation is needed, but whatever the solution outright dismissal is only a hindrance. We are far more populated today than we were 60yrs ago. Only make sense that we would need to change a few things. We have many cities in this country like Detroit and Oakland that have struggle over the last couple decades do to sprawl and white flight. Millennials desire to live in the city rather than commute an hour to a suburb may help rebuild many of those cities. It also help lighten traffic on our roads. Why do you view the mere desire to be closer to work as a negative?

[tar]

DrP,

 

What in your mind makes a good neighborhood? Is it not the neighbors?

What makes a good family? Is it not the family members?

What makes a good school? Is it not the teachers and the students?

 

What makes a good country? Is it not the people that make up the country?

 

What makes a strong country?

Strengthening the weakest link.

 

Not fostering dependence.

 

Your argument might have been good 50 years ago, and it caused us to develop welfare programs and social safety nets, and anti-discrimination laws, Pell grants and affirmative action. But you need a new argument 50 years later.

 

There are not enough police to enforce the laws, we have to police ourselves.

There are not enough houses to fit us all we have to build them ourselves, feed ourselves...fulfill all of Maslow's hierarchy of needs for ourselves and our families and the people we are teamed up with.

 

I asked before that we stay out of the big city ghetto and talk about the hills and hollows of West Virginia when we talk about drugs and dependence and squalor and people acting inappropriately and being weak links.

 

My nephew just made fireman after years of trying. He and my sister and brother in law support his two wonderful children.

 

Talk about what is different between his behavior and the behavior of the meth/welfare/disability dependency that took his wife away...so that you understand what I am talking about, when I suggest that dependency is a bad thing, that does not help the recipient of the drug or the transfer payment to become a stronger link. It is not my nephew who took the drug. And his former wife is white.

 

Regards, TAR

[Willie71]

Overtone​,

 

​​I am a republican. I don't like the idea of a wall, at all. I think personally we should simply enforce the laws we have and accept people legally into the country, consistent with our immigration policies. The border states should be supported in preventing undocumented workers from taking advantage of our good hearts. Mexico should get a better handle on their drug lords and we should not encourage children to come to the US to be protected. They have families and a country and their families and countries should have primary responsibility for their well being. I am not losing my marbles over the thing.

 

You may feel I misread your posts, and blame you for hating republicans when you just hate the Koch brothers and the military industrial complex and Bush and Cheney and Reagan and Fox and the purchased press and lobbyists, but if I would associate with the Koch brothers and be impressed by their wealth and power or have been a soldier and part of the military industrial complex, and have voted for Bush and watched Fox and read newspapers and known people with long guns behind their front door, and known people exploring the nation for gas and oil and part of the fracking industry and such...then I am your enemy and the guy you constantly rail against for ruining the county and being the biggest problem in America. But while you are right, you are also wrong, because I am also the guy that lets you in on the highway, and stops and picks up your garbage can when it has blown into the street, made your copier work, made your fax work, made your scanner work, keep the Soviet Union from invading West Germany with tanks, lived next door to a drug addict who locked her bedroom door to keep her kids from stealing her drugs, wanted to rid Iraq of Saddam, wanted to rid the world of Bin Laden, wants to rid the world of ISIS, and would like to see people not be enabled to be leeches on my society, not be enabled to disrespect the law, and would like to more that all maintain my peaceful, beautiful house in the suburbs and live free of fear and ugliness, repression and hatred. I want to love and respect my neighbors and I want to extend a hand to anyone in trouble. I do not owe the world any more than I have been giving for the last half century. I take offense at you vilifying me and my desires, and your ideals of a better way, are not realistic. They are in your mind alone and do not take into account that the majority of Americans are not as smart as you, and it would be better for you to help them when they need it, than to construct an enemy in your mind, that in actuality are not the great satin you make us out to be.

 

Regards, TAR

Tar, there seems to be a disconnect between what you believe the Republican Party stands for, and what they actually stand for. It's hard to follow your posts, since they have a mish mash idea salad that is incongruent, and contradicts itself. It's like trying to make sense of Sarah Palin. The talking points are there, but not in any structured form.

 

Can you post a list, say 10 points, outlining what you think the Republican Party stands for? Try to fact check them please. I think you are holding on to an idea of what the Republican Party is that is no longer true.

[tar]

Ten Oz,

 

Being diverse makes a difference, because you are more likely to trust the other guy or gal to have your back, if they are like you.

 

I saw the headline today that Sweden was expelling half the refugees they allowed in from Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq. Their hearts were bigger than their stomachs.

 

Like the sexual assaults in Germany at New Years, there are differences, cultural differences to where the outsiders just don't get it.

 

Tolerance and understanding is one thing, but just being a part of the human family is not enough. You have to get with the program. If our program is based on the Protestant work ethic and personal responsibility, and everybody is doing their best to be strong links and we help those that struggle, that is one thing. If on the other hand someone expects to be part of the club, without paying their dues, that is something else entirely.

 

In a homogeneous society you know everybody is pulling their weight and playing by the rules and having your same ideals and attitude. In a diverse society, where there is an opportunity for cultural clashes and distrust, it is not as easy to cobble together a consensus of which way to pull the chain and who should provide the muscle.

 

Regards, TAR

[Willie71]

DrP,

 

What in your mind makes a good neighborhood? Is it not the neighbors?

What makes a good family? Is it not the family members?

What makes a good school? Is it not the teachers and the students?

 

What makes a good country? Is it not the people that make up the country?

 

What makes a strong country?

Strengthening the weakest link.

 

Not fostering dependence.

 

Your argument might have been good 50 years ago, and it caused us to develop welfare programs and social safety nets, and anti-discrimination laws, Pell grants and affirmative action. But you need a new argument 50 years later.

 

There are not enough police to enforce the laws, we have to police ourselves.

There are not enough houses to fit us all we have to build them ourselves, feed ourselves...fulfill all of Maslow's hierarchy of needs for ourselves and our families and the people we are teamed up with.

 

I asked before that we stay out of the big city ghetto and talk about the hills and hollows of West Virginia when we talk about drugs and dependence and squalor and people acting inappropriately and being weak links.

 

My nephew just made fireman after years of trying. He and my sister and brother in law support his two wonderful children.

 

Talk about what is different between his behavior and the behavior of the meth/welfare/disability dependency that took his wife away...so that you understand what I am talking about, when I suggest that dependency is a bad thing, that does not help the recipient of the drug or the transfer payment to become a stronger link. It is not my nephew who took the drug. And his former wife is white.

 

Regards, TAR

The first half supports democratic principles, so another mixed message.

 

Dependence in a code word for lazy minority. If you did a bit of fact spchecking, you would realize most welfare recipients are temporary users. Drug addiction? Public provided early treatment is the most economical option. Early childhood programs like hot breakfast at school pay for themselves by a factor of 100. Yet you think that fosters dependency. Addictions aren't character flaws, they are medical conditions that require treatment.

 

Why the desire to not include the inner city? You want to ignore the very real issue of the social/genetic lottery? Just because you have white privilege doesn't mean everyone has the same opportunities.

Ten Oz,

 

Being diverse makes a difference, because you are more likely to trust the other guy or gal to have your back, if they are like you.

 

I saw the headline today that Sweden was expelling half the refugees they allowed in from Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq. Their hearts were bigger than their stomachs.

 

Like the sexual assaults in Germany at New Years, there are differences, cultural differences to where the outsiders just don't get it.

 

Tolerance and understanding is one thing, but just being a part of the human family is not enough. You have to get with the program. If our program is based on the Protestant work ethic and personal responsibility, and everybody is doing their best to be strong links and we help those that struggle, that is one thing. If on the other hand someone expects to be part of the club, without paying their dues, that is something else entirely.

 

In a homogeneous society you know everybody is pulling their weight and playing by the rules and having your same ideals and attitude. In a diverse society, where there is an opportunity for cultural clashes and distrust, it is not as easy to cobble together a consensus of which way to pull the chain and who should provide the muscle.

 

Regards, TAR

The Republican Party expects to be part of the club without paying their dues. It's a hypocritical position.

[tar]

Willie71,

 

Your request is difficult for me to fulfill because the planks of the party platform are not set. Neither is such set for the democrats.

 

But without citation, I would say

 

Personal responsibility.

Strong military.

Christian values.

Smaller Government.

Private insurance.

Less government interference in private business.

Free market operation.

The right to bear arms.

Fight against Global terrorism.

Private property and protection of personal wealth.

[Ten oz]

Ten Oz,

 

Being diverse makes a difference, because you are more likely to trust the other guy or gal to have your back, if they are like you.

 

 

And yet here the USA stand as both the most powerful and most diverse. If what you say we're true wouldn't we be weak? Moreover explain to me how it is that within the United States the most diverse State are also the leading producers of everything. California, Texas, New York, and etc lead to way. They produce the overwhelming majority of our food, technology, media, and etc. The more "homogeneous" states like Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, and so on aren't the ones carrying this country. How could that be if diversity was sometype of blurrier?

[tar]

Where have I, as a republican, not paid my dues?

Ten Oz,

 

Diversity has already made us strong. It has however not made us socialist.

 

 

Regards, TAR

[Ten oz]

Personal responsibility - I think we all agree

 

Strong military :

what steps have Democrats taken to weaken the Military? There is a difference between strength and use.

 

Christian values :

is that would religious freedom means to you?

 

Smaller Government :

which Republican President shrunk the size of governement ??????

 

Private insurance :

Eisenhower and Nixon both pushed for Government provided healthcare. When did opposing it become a Republican value?

 

Less government interference in private business :

which republican administration did this across the board without picking and choosing favorites?

 

Free market operation :

you mean like no bid contracts?

 

The right to bear arms :

has either party sent agents out to collect guns?

 

Fight against Global terrorism :

only Republcans do that?

 

Private property and protection of personal wealth.

Where have I, as a republican, not paid my dues?

Ten Oz,

 

Diversity has already made us strong. It has however not made us socialist.

 

 

Regards, TAR

Medicare, Medicaid, Soc Sec, employment, food stamps, military tricare, public education, the highway system, and etc weren't around during slavery. We have become stronger and have more safety nets than we did when we were less diverse and more segregated. Edited January 28, 2016 by Ten oz

[tar]

There is a backward argument underlying liberal strawman aguments, that conservatives are bigoted and bias against blacks and inhumane because they are privileged and won't share their wealth.

 

That is the assumption that a black person could not possibly carry their own weight and be a strong link in the chain, without the help of a white person.

 

If Flint Michigan is mostly black and has bad water, why is the first assumption that white people don't care about black lives. Why can't we hold the citizens of Flint responsible for their own water. Water filters and water testing kits have existed.

[Willie71]

Willie71,

 

Your request is difficult for me to fulfill because the planks of the party platform are not set. Neither is such set for the democrats.

 

But without citation, I would say

 

Personal responsibility.

Strong military.

Christian values.

Smaller Government.

Private insurance.

Less government interference in private business.

Free market operation.

The right to bear arms.

Fight against Global terrorism.

Private property and protection of personal wealth.

Ok, it's a start.

 

Personal responsibility. Everyone agrees here.

 

Strong military: how strong, and can you afford it? Is what you have financially sustainable?

 

Christian values: violation of the constitution. This is a problem.

 

Smaller government: talking point. Reagan grew government more than anyone else in recent history. Bush degree the military, and gave the patriot act, an obscene growth of government power.

 

Private insurance. This is code for crony capitalism and corporate profits (I think you are referring to health care.)

 

Less government interference with private business: this resulted in numerous health and environmental catastrophes. Without government regulations, we would still have leaded paint and gas, asbestos insulation, and currently, water quality and geologic stability from fracking are unknowns. When corporate profits are the only goal, us peasants are expendable.

 

Free market operation: no such thing. The republican plan results in monopolies, and crony advantages. It's a nice idea, but has never really existed, and it is not what the republicans actually support in policy.

 

The right to bear arms: you ignored the well regulated militia part. Is this practical? Look at the buddy fiasco. They were taken down by cops, not even the military. Time to lose the fantasy. I support guns as tools, and sporting items, but self protection, and government overthrow are myths,

 

Fight against global terrorism: start with American terrorism, removing the fuel for the other terrorists.

 

Private property and protection of personal wealth: you need banking reforms to protect your investments, and protect you from property value abnormalities through the bubbles the bankers create. The republicans are actually supporting less stability for your respurces.

There is a backward argument underlying liberal strawman aguments, that conservatives are bigoted and bias against blacks and inhumane because they are privileged and won't share their wealth.

 

That is the assumption that a black person could not possibly carry their own weight and be a strong link in the chain, without the help of a white person.

 

If Flint Michigan is mostly black and has bad water, why is the first assumption that white people don't care about black lives. Why can't we hold the citizens of Flint responsible for their own water. Water filters and water testing kits have existed.

 

This is either uninformed, or psychopathic. Wtf?

[Phi for All]

 

Private insurance.

 

Be honest here. Private medical insurance is what you want to keep, despite its proven higher costs and mortality rate. Everyone please note that tar supports paying more for getting less, and the destruction of our country's bargaining power.

 

Nobody ever, EVER, talked about getting rid of other types of insurance. More conservative bs.