Greece 2015+...

[DimaMazin]

Greeks have chosen problems therefore they should live (some time) with them.

[michel123456]

Continuing on the same trend

 

Italian representative mr Gianni Pittela also says something is going wrong with mr Schauble. No translation needed.

Il Ministro Schauble è un irresponsabile.

 

 

[imatfaal]

Greeks have chosen problems therefore they should live (some time) with them.

 

In 2008 Greece has about 20pct youth unemployment - it now has around 50pct and has been as high as 60pct youth unemployment. They have lived with them - they have suffered because of them.

 

Ideas that no-one thinks will actually cause a pick up in GDP etc are being imposed mainly due to political dogma and a completely unsuitable and rather repellent desire to punish

[MigL]

"Governments alter the quantity/value of money" ???

 

Not the Greek government !

They lost that ability when they decided to us a common currency with the rest of the European collective.

 

My opinion has always been that a government that doesn't live within its means soon finds that it can't support its social services/programs because the costs associated with servicing the debt ( benefitting foreign banks and the extremely wealthy ) spirals out of control.

 

iNow has now found a solution to this problem.

Just don't repay the debt.

( but then what happens next time you need help ??? )

 

Greece is at the point, right now, where the associated costs and problems of not lending them more money outweigh the loan involved. If the Greek economy fails totally it would be major problems for the Eurozone, so I think a bailout will happen.

 

If Greece doesn't get its house in order, however, who in their right mind, will bail them out the next time ?

[John Cuthber]

.

 

it says a lot that a cartoon like that is put forward as a spoof.

Governments can give people free stuff forever; they just have to tax people to pay for it.

In the short term they can do it by borrowing. you might say that's not "forever", but when was the last time all the countries in Europe were all out of debt?

If a few corrupt individuals screw things up at just the same time that a world-wide crisis hits the money markets you get a problem.

 

It is interesting to note that, in the last hundred years, Germany has defaulted on debt as often as Greece has.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default#List_of_sovereign_debt_defaults_or_debt_restructuring

[overtone]

The moneylenders who colluded with the corrupt Greek capitalists to evade taxes on an extraordinary scale (and conceal their profits offshore to this day), colluded with corrupt Greek politicians to rig the tax systems and falsify the government's accounting and budget so as to obtain unpayable loans, and then used their influence to ensure that the inevitable losses would be suffered by the taxpayers of various countries, were based in Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands, England, France, and - significantly, Goldman Sachs prominent among them - the US. Et al.

 

The Greek people have been mugged and robbed. Now the robbers are making them pay for the damages and loss.

[Delbert]

Greeks have chosen problems therefore they should live (some time) with them.

If I've understood that correctly, I would agree wholeheartedly.

 

If seems we are forgetting we live in a democracy. If the people elect a government that takes them to purgatory then, I'm sorry, but they can't complain.

 

If you are so wedded to your continual confusion of government budgets funded by taxation and personal budgets funded by labor or investment of capital,

Don't know what you're taking about. Sounds like gobbledygook to me.

 

I'm wedded to the principle that money has to be earned.

 

why are you so opposed to extending to these governments the ordinary protections of bankruptcy enjoyed by persons in all industrial economies?

If I've understood what you mean by 'ordinary protection of bankruptcy', presumably the answer would be to write-off part if not all the debt because they are unlikely to repay, and lend them a further shedload? Like I understand has happened previously, and sure to happen again and again, as sure as night follows day should the EU acquiesce.

 

Clearly ludicrous. There has to be a halt. In other words there is no protection from bankruptcy - and rightly so.

 

But to return to democracy. The Greeks had a referendum a week or so back which said NO. So I presume the Greek politicians will adhere to that result. No! Do you mean they won't keep a promise?

[dimreepr]

If seems we are forgetting we live in a democracy. If the people elect a government that takes them to purgatory then, I'm sorry, but they can't complain.

 

 

But to return to democracy. The Greeks had a referendum a week or so back which said NO. So I presume the Greek politicians will adhere to that result. No! Do you mean they won't keep a promise?

 

 

You can’t have it both ways:

 

The Greeks should be held to account because they voted for the gov that buggered things up.

 

If the Greeks were lied to why should they be made to suffer?

 

So which is it?

 

Besides why should those that didn’t vote for the gov be made to suffer?

[overtone]

 

 

If the people elect a government that takes them to purgatory then, I'm sorry, but they can't complain.

People who have been cheated and robbed by international moneylenders can't complain?

 

 

I'm wedded to the principle that money has to be earned.

By whom?

The Greek people have earned their money - they are some of the hardest working people in Europe, and not among the highest paid. But they've been robbed.

 

If I've understood what you mean by 'ordinary protection of bankruptcy', presumably the answer would be to write-off part if not all the debt because they are unlikely to repay, and lend them a further shedload? Usually in bankruptcy there is no further loaning for some time, and creditors obtain their collateral and write off their debts. Why would you presume further lending to Greece? The main result of the lending so far has been to pay the interest on the overall debt to foreign bank accounts beyond the taxman's reach. .

 

 

Clearly ludicrous. There has to be a halt. In other words there is no protection from bankruptcy - and rightly so. Then let's have no more yak about family budgets and so forth.

 

And recognize that bankruptcy is inevitable, for Greece - the only question is when, and how big will it have grown, and who will take the loss. And since there are no protections like families get, there is no reason for Greece to cooperate at all, necessarily.

[Delbert]

 

You can’t have it both ways:

 

The Greeks should be held to account because they voted for the gov that buggered things up.

 

If the Greeks were lied to why should they be made to suffer?

 

So which is it?

Both. I'm sorry, but they voted for a liar (your word). If we vote a lunatic into power and the lunatic makes a complete Horlicks of everything, who is to blame? I say the voters.

 

That is the power of democracy.

 

Voting is a serious business. We get what we vote for.

 

On a side issue. I believe some say we (UK) had a warmonger as PM a while ago. But he was voted in with a significant majority three times, two of which while he was doing his - what I believe has been called - warmongering!!

[dimreepr]

Both. I'm sorry, but they voted for a liar (your word). If we vote a lunatic into power and the lunatic makes a complete Horlicks of everything, who is to blame? I say the voters.

 

 

So if you voted for a liar or idiot (not that they advertise that information) and he/she bugger things up, you’d be happy to starve?

 

 

Voting is a serious business. We get what we vote for.

 

 

 

Not everyone does.

[Delbert]

 

So if you voted for a liar or idiot (not that they advertise that information) and he/she bugger things up, you’d be happy to starve?

Well, of course I wouldn't be happy to starve - who would. But the fault would still be mine for not being astute enough to spot that the person was an idiot and or a liar.

 

I'm sorry, but that is, and must be, the facts. That's called taking responsibility for decisions we make.

 

I'm sorry, but we cannot divorce ourselves from the consequences of what we do. Although and in contrast, from what I seem to see and read in the media, divorcing ourselves from the consequences of what we do seems fashionable these days.

[michel123456]

 

I'm wedded to the principle that money has to be earned.

 

That's the way it should be, but it's not.

Do the bankers "earn" their money? Do the loaner "earn" his money? Do the gambler-investor in the stock market "earn" his money. And so many others.

[dimreepr]

Well, of course I wouldn't be happy to starve - who would. But the fault would still be mine for not being astute enough to spot that the person was an idiot and or a liar.

 

I'm sorry, but that is, and must be, the facts. That's called taking responsibility for decisions we make.

 

I'm sorry, but we cannot divorce ourselves from the consequences of what we do. Although and in contrast, from what I seem to see and read in the media, divorcing ourselves from the consequences of what we do seems fashionable these days.

 

 

 

So the average citizen must be blamed for not being bright enough to spot a professional Politian’s lies?

 

Given your monochromic view of the world I have serious doubts of your abilities in that area.

 

Of course we are responsible for our actions but when those actions are by another, who may have deceived/coerced to gain your approval, they cease to be our actions.

Edited July 13, 2015 by dimreepr

[michel123456]

Example of what happened in Greece at the last 2015 legislatives elections.

 

Info taken from Wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece#cite_note-ELSTAT-187

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_legislative_election,_2015

 

According to the official statistical body of Greece, the Hellenic Statistical Authority (ELSTAT), the country's total population in 2011 was 10,815,197

 

 

9,808,760 registered voters were called up to vote

 

 

From those voters 6,330,356 came to vote.

 

6,180,872 were valid

 

From these last voters, 36,34% voted for the left wing Syriza. That is 2,245,978 voters

 

IOW 2,245,978 / 10,815,197 = 20% of the Greek population (including new borns & others) voted for Mr Tsipras. That is how democracy works, OK no problem with that, but don't blindly shoot at the 80% who didn't vote for being ill, teenager or new born or those who voted otherwise.

 

BUT I agree with you that you can shoot freely the ones who were bored and didn't go voting.

 

At this moment we are all "The Greeks" and the others are all "The Germans". I don't like that.

[overtone]

The Greeks should be held to account because they voted for the gov that buggered things up

The Greeks did not vote for the Greek industrialists or predatory international moneylenders and financiers that buggered things up.

 

 

 

 

IOW 2,245,978 / 10,815,197 = 20% of the Greek population (including new borns & others) voted for Mr Tsipras. That is how democracy works, OK no problem with that, but don't blindly shoot at the 80% who didn't vote for being ill, teenager or new born or those who voted otherwise.

Tsipras did not bugger things up.

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-03-06/goldman-secret-greece-loan-shows-two-sinners-as-client-unravels scroll down for update comparisons.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/goldman-sachs-shorted-greek-debt-after-it-arranged-those-shady-swaps-2010-2

Note Goldman's continuing involvement through 2005 and beyond, not merely the fraudulent debt-rigging of 2001.

 

Note that this latest deal does not include, as a normal person would expect in these circumstances, German and Swiss and French and American cooperation in getting some of the money back from Goldman Sachs. "Clawback" is standard and normal in bankruptcies. Where is it?

Edited July 14, 2015 by overtone

[Delbert]

 

Do the bankers "earn" their money? Do the loaner "earn" his money? Do the gambler-investor in the stock market "earn" his money. And so many others.

I terms of making physical things (which I presume is what you mean), clearly not. But although they are apparently vilified by various elements of the populous (presumably the reason for your question), I suggest they do noting more than those that criticize. For example: hands up anyone that doesn't expect interest from a saving account, play the lottery, buy shares, enter competitions for a prize, anything similar or simply buy and sell anything for profit whereby the building or construction of said anything is not involved; in other words, expect to obtain money without physical labour (except that in filling out forms, walking and shoe leather).

 

The Greeks did not vote for the Greek industrialists or predatory international moneylenders and financiers that buggered things up.

This is all very interesting. Perhaps you've overlooked the fact that for every lender there has to be a borrower. What do I hear regularly in the news about people complaining about banks and the like restricting lending? You know, I can't get a mortgage; the business owner complaining about he can't get a loan; it's the nasty banks not opening up and lending they seem to say. Indeed, they should be lending more to boost the recovery, is something I seem to have heard.

 

And to obtain the money to lend they have to somehow obtain the stuff. Indeed, a recent socialist government here in the UK relaxed the banking regulations, which was clearly intended to encourage what is apparently now referred to as risky practice - furthermore, referred to as 'predatory international moneylenders and financiers that buggered things up' by your good self. It's the oldest story in the word, and is enacted day-after-day, when whatever appears to be working, it's considered to be wonderful; but when it eventually fails, it's those nasty people in control.

 

Anyway, to return to Greece. It now appears from reports that EU countries are to cough-up cash (apparently, 1billion for my fellow citizens here in the UK), before the Greek government have even voted to accept it or not! And apparently the Greek government have to vote on something that reportedly is worse than the NO vote a week or so back!

 

So, we are to cough-up. Now, that will have an undoubted effect on us with some of our hard-earned taxes not going on our hospitals, pensions and all the other things. And we don't have a vote on all this! All before the Greeks have voted to abide by the agreement. And even if they do, hands up all those who'll place money on them continuing so to do for more than a year?

 

I'm sorry, I just can't get my head around any of it.

[overtone]

This is all very interesting. Perhaps you've overlooked the fact that for every lender there has to be a borrower. What do I hear regularly in the news about people complaining about banks and the like restricting lending? You know, I can't get a mortgage; the business owner complaining about he can't get a loan; it's the nasty banks not opening up and lending they seem to say. Indeed, they should be lending more to boost the recovery, is something I seem to have heard.

It's a question of fact - what actually happened. In this case, a cabal of international financial players - Goldman, Morgan, the IMF, a few others - took advantage of the ignorance, naivety, desperation, and greed of a few Greeks (some conned or corrupted politicians, a few colluding and profiteering tycoons), and arranged the robbery of the regular citizens of Greece and the taxpayers of the Eurozone.

 

They walked away with hundreds of millions of dollars, in many cases not even paying taxes on their profits.

 

There is no realistic way any ordinary voter in Greece - let alone a majority of them - could have monitored and forestalled the situation.

 

 

 

So, we are to cough-up. Now, that will have an undoubted effect on us with some of our hard-earned taxes not going on our hospitals, pensions and all the other things

Tough. Regulate your financial markets and bankers, cooperate with other countries in stepping on tax evasion and currency manipulations and international financial predation, or pay the price. There are ten million people in Greece, the population of London, and they have had a rough history - protect them and others like them, put a leash on your bankers, or everyone is going to get bitten sooner or later.

 

Why aren't clawbacks and tax evader confiscations and similar options part of this deal with the Greeks?

Edited July 14, 2015 by overtone

[MigL]

Oh come on, overtone.

You need to stop looking at the world with a blinder over your 'right' eye.

 

There is plenty of blame to go around, here for everybody.

They all let the situation get out of control.

You say there should be more controls yet when Germany tries to impose controls, it is the Greek people, you know the poor innocent people who were scammed by the big bad banks, who vote against it in a referendum.

they still want the government provided benefits, even though the government has no money.

 

There will always be people ( or money lenders ) who try to take advantage of other people, but it is the greed of the latter which enables this.

[dimreepr]

There will always be people ( or money lenders ) who try to take advantage of other people, but it is the greed of the latter which enables this.

 

 

This sentence is a little ambiguous given the tone of the post.

 

Do you mean the greed of people who want to live a comfortable life (who wouldn’t) is the enablers (your choice given the context)?

 

Or

 

Do you mean the money lenders, who prey on the vulnerable and week willed (my choice)?

[Delbert]

IIn this case, a cabal of international financial players - Goldman, Morgan, the IMF, a few others - took advantage of the ignorance, naivety, desperation, and greed of a few Greeks (some conned or corrupted politicians, a few colluding and profiteering tycoons), and arranged the robbery of the regular citizens of Greece and the taxpayers of the Eurozone.

Again, I think you're missing the point. It was allowed, encouraged or whatever word one prefers, by the politicians - you know, the ones we vote for.

 

Indeed, among the ones you mention you suggest a few others, another like Lehman mayhap? You know that bank where our socialist chancellor opened a London branch and reportedly praised it to the extent that he would like to be able to run the UK economy like they run their bank!

 

As I said, it's the age old story, when it appears to be running okay it's wonderful - clearly a view a previous UK socialist government took. But when it eventually goes wrong, it's the nasty whatever.

 

But this topic is about Greece.

 

So, we've thrown another load of money at the problem, which as sure as eggs are eggs, won't be repaid. Something, which, I for one, is not happy about, because it will take money from my county's budget. You know, money that could be spent on the things people keep complaining the government aren't spending enough on. So the UK for one will be experiencing the consequences.

 

And does anyone seriously believe they will adhere to the terms of the agreement? And of course, if the situation reoccurs (nay I'm placing money on it that it will), it will be even more difficult for the EU to do the right thing and pull the plug. Again, it's the age old story whereby if you owe the bank a hundred pounds, you're in trouble. But should you owe the bank a million pounds the bank's in trouble. No sorry, that should be: if you owe the bank a several hundred billion pounds a whole continent is in a deep, dark, slippery sided cesspit without climbing equipment.

[dimreepr]

Come on delbert, play the game, your flat denial at every turn and no supportive evidence, doesn’t further the argument; what it does do, is show you as ignorant of, not only, the economics but also a deep ignorance of your fellow man in terms of empathy and understanding.

 

Basically “put up or shut up”.

[Roamer]

Both. I'm sorry, but they voted for a liar (your word). If we vote a lunatic into power and the lunatic makes a complete Horlicks of everything, who is to blame? I say the voters.

 

That is the power of democracy.

 

Voting is a serious business. We get what we vote for.

 

On a side issue. I believe some say we (UK) had a warmonger as PM a while ago. But he was voted in with a significant majority three times, two of which while he was doing his - what I believe has been called - warmongering!!

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I just can't get my head around any of it.

We(the EU) live in a autocracy with a people's representation, not in a democracy.

In a democracy people vote on the laws governing them, not on the people making the laws.

Switzerland can be considered a democracy, but in most of the EU, referendums are held but only respected by politicians if the people voted as they wanted them to.

A lot of the institutions(paid for by tax money) are able to operate more-or-less autonomous.

Large companies(private money) are making it necessary for governments to "stand together" to not be played out against each other tax/rules-wise.

(about the last point, i suppose the EU is at least partly responsible for this, due to open borders, but it is also a way of standing together,

it's one of the many examples how the EU makes itself necessary.)

[michel123456]

There is another problem.

Europe has rules.

That appear to be above the laws of the countries. In such a way that countries must change the laws in order to comply with the rules. IOW the process for law making doesn't come from the basis but come from the summit.

It is a paternalist procedure, so far. But it is not the way it was intended to work I think.

Here, it appears evident that some europeans are "riding the reed" (καβαλάνε το καλάμι)- meaning that they believe being very superior. Those people impose their point of view to entire nations. They dare to tell a chief of state what to do and what not to do. They tell a Parliament what to vote and what not to vote.That is not Democracy. That is very dangerous.

[dimreepr]

Not just a European problem.