Greece 2015+...

[michel123456]

And finally, there was a hidden agenda.

Minister Varoufakis didn't really want to avoid the Grexit (as it appears now).

And Minister Schauble wanted a Grexit. And still wants. That is why the measures are so harsh. His crocodile jaws are still in the Greek flesh. It is not finished.

[dimreepr]

Indeed, I'd be furious if I we're a Greek that voted "oxi".

[overtone]

You need to stop looking at the world with a blinder over your 'right' eye.

There is plenty of blame to go around, here for everybody.

I'm the only one here distributing blame to the people who negotiated the bad deals, profited from them, and have so far escaped any consequences whatsoever.

Goldman Sachs shorted the Greek debt they themselves arranged, for example. Not hedged - shorted.

 

They all let the situation get out of control.

They were lied to, about the situation. Conned.

 

You say there should be more controls yet when Germany tries to impose controls, it is the Greek people, you know the poor innocent people who were scammed by the big bad banks, who vote against it in a referendum.

The Greek people have never voted against regulating international finance. Germany has yet to make the first step toward clawbacks from the predators, or the necessary regulation of the derivative industry, or the legal prosecution of those who have failed to skirt the law with sufficient care. They have never yet, for example, sought extradition (or even testimony under oath) for any official of an English or American financial institution.

In fact, some of the people who robbed the Greeks are currently lined up to be paid yet more money at Greek and Eurozone citizen expense.

 

There will always be people ( or money lenders ) who try to take advantage of other people, but it is the greed of the latter which enables this

1) So you think we don't need to regulate, restrict, or prosecute, the Bernie Madoffs and Lloyd Blankfeins of this world - their victims (pension funds, retired old people, city governments and community organizations in distant places, etc) are to blame.

2) Whose greed, exactly, do you find responsible? Whose greed, exactly, is responsible for the wholesale tax evasion and corruption of Greek government by domestic and outside finance? Whose greed, exactly, was involved in the Greek deals involving Goldman Sachs? Whose greed crashed the international financial markets via huge dishonest schemes concealed from oversight, and thereby pushed Greece into the current hole? Hint: the ordinary Greek citizens were bystanders in all those deals - most of them innocent bystanders, some of them trying to prevent the abuses - and ended up victims, while those who knew what was they were doing and lying about it made big money they still have, some of it set up in hidden accounts in Eurozone and offshore banks with money they paid no taxes on, etc.

 

And does anyone seriously believe they will adhere to the terms of the agreement? And of course, if the situation reoccurs (nay I'm placing money on it that it will), it will be even more difficult for the EU to do the right thing and pull the plug.

Yes. If this goes according to all historical precedent, until most of the Greek debt is written off and accepted as lost the crisis will continue and the Greek economy will founder. No austerity measures will create a vibrant and growing Greek economy capable of paying off this bubbled, derivative inflated debt. The longer the delay, the deeper the hole and the worse the pain will be. (In 2010 the whole thing could have been written off for less than 50 billion - and even that was far higher than the original shortfall. http://www.talkmarkets.com/content/global-markets/thrilling-thursday--the-greek-tragedy-continues?post=58216 ).

You were robbed. Your fellow robbery victims are not capable of making good their losses, let alone your losses. If you want your money back, you have to get it from where it went. And next time don't hand your credit card to known swindlers with your password written on the back.

Edited July 14, 2015 by overtone

[Delbert]

Come on delbert, play the game, your flat denial at every turn and no supportive evidence, doesn’t further the argument; what it does do, is show you as ignorant of, not only, the economics but also a deep ignorance of your fellow man in terms of empathy and understanding.

 

Basically “put up or shut up”.

No supportive evidence eh! Have you?

 

My dictionary says: data on which to base proof or to establish truth or falsehood. So, unless you're in there at the sharp end, I suggest the sure and certain likelihood is you haven't data other than what we all read and hear in the media either. As for you considered and reasoned response of shutting up, it sounds more like I've touched and twanged a nerve!

 

Anyway, returning to Greece. According to reports the IMF think this 'agreement' is all fudged fairyland economics.

 

I'm still banking on one of my two options in my reply #65.

[swansont]

 

So, we've thrown another load of money at the problem, which as sure as eggs are eggs, won't be repaid. Something, which, I for one, is not happy about, because it will take money from my county's budget. You know, money that could be spent on the things people keep complaining the government aren't spending enough on. So the UK for one will be experiencing the consequences.

 

Which, if I understand your position, is your fault, because you live in a democracy and the politicians that were elected chose to do this. If you are not happy you should have elected different officials.

[Endy0816]

and IMF's position is much the same as here, that additional debt relief is necessary rather than 'just' another loan.

 

 

The dramatic deterioration in debt sustainability points to the need for debt relief on a scale that would need to go well beyond what has been under consideration to date—and what has been proposed by the ESM.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2015/cr15186.pdf?hootPostID=2cd94f17236d717acd9949448d794045

 

At some point you have to talk about forgiveness or you could well face a total loss. Restructuring gives the best chances for repayment. Even at the consumer level this is often utilized.

 

Note that the UK government is already taking action in regards to the usage of ESM funds. May or may not be an issue.

[MigL]

You misunderstood me overtone, I don't blame just the Greek people, but neither do I absolve them from blame.

As I said there's plenty of that to go around.

 

Every scam or con depends on two things, the greed or desperation of the victim.

Greece is not a third world country. They have a vibrant economy and are much like southern Italy or Spain. Heck, just tourism would keep them afloat. Yet just like southern Italy ( I was born there and am very familiar with it ), they have a disdain for industry and advancement beyond simple rural and small village life. Pay very little taxes ( I own a home 60 km east of Naples and only recently started paying $200 /yr in property taxes ) yet expect full benefits of social services.

 

So if someone comes along and offers you junk bonds with astronomical rates of return, and you take them because of your greed, you've been conned. And at least some of the blame is on you

[Delbert]

 

Which, if I understand your position, is your fault, because you live in a democracy and the politicians that were elected chose to do this. If you are not happy you should have elected different officials.

That maybe one view, but in contrast I'd say the Euro is undoubtedly undemocratic. My government didn't join, but the dictators of the EU want us to cough-up for this mess, to which our government states they won't pay for something that they have no jurisdiction over. No jurisdiction, therefore I have no voting power over it, which I think makes your suggestion incorrect.

 

Democracy, I believe, requires that things have to be variable, adjustable or even possible to be thrown into the dustbin should the people so decide through their voting voice. It appears that that can't happen with the Euro. In other words the Euro is profoundly undemocratic. I'd go further and suggest what we're seeing with this Greek situation is what can - nay does - happen when there's no democracy - even with just one factor! As we see, what happens is politicians one minute saying No, then a week later, totally ignoring the will of the people expressed just a week prior, by saying Yes! Running about like headless chickens. In other words, chaos and all that follows. That's what happens when one takes or denies - even just one aspect of - democracy from the people. Democracy is a precious fragile golden egg which needs protection. Something the EU leaders in Brussels, it appears, have yet to learn.

[swansont]

That maybe one view, but in contrast I'd say the Euro is undoubtedly undemocratic. My government didn't join, but the dictators of the EU want us to cough-up for this mess, to which our government states they won't pay for something that they have no jurisdiction over. No jurisdiction, therefore I have no voting power over it, which I think makes your suggestion incorrect.

 

Wasn't that the view you were espousing?

"If the people elect a government that takes them to purgatory then, I'm sorry, but they can't complain."

"If we vote a lunatic into power and the lunatic makes a complete Horlicks of everything, who is to blame? I say the voters."

 

You government didn't join the EU? Did they take you over?

[Delbert]

 

Wasn't that the view you were espousing?

Well, I thought I just explained that in my reply #108.

 

What part of: "something that they have no jurisdiction over. No jurisdiction, therefore I have no voting power over it, which I think makes your suggestion incorrect." don't you understand?

 

Okay, I'll try and express it differently: It is a decision made by a different fiscal authority (different country, as far as I'm concerned) of which my country, and therefore I, do not have any voting control over.

 

Indeed, I understand this suggested invoicing to a different country with it's own totally separate sovereign currency, is so far outside credibility it could only be from a tin-pot loony-tune bank of the madhouse. But as has been suggested in the media, they are making it up as they go along. Typical approach of a dictatorship.

[swansont]

Well, I thought I just explained that in my reply #108.

 

What part of: "something that they have no jurisdiction over. No jurisdiction, therefore I have no voting power over it, which I think makes your suggestion incorrect." don't you understand?

 

Okay, I'll try and express it differently: It is a decision made by a different fiscal authority (different country, as far as I'm concerned) of which my country, and therefore I, do not have any voting control over.

 

Indeed, I understand this suggested invoicing to a different country with it's own totally separate sovereign currency, is so far outside credibility it could only be from a tin-pot loony-tune bank of the madhouse. But as has been suggested in the media, they are making it up as they go along. Typical approach of a dictatorship.

 

 

The decision to join the EU was made by your elected officials. Your position seems to be that the voters are responsible for all bad decisions made as a result of actions of elected officials. Ergo, you got yourself into this mess and are to blame, according to your logic. Sure, it seemed like a good idea at the time and made economic sense, but getting conned because of greed isn't an excuse, right?

[imatfaal]

The decision to join the EU was made by your elected officials. Your position seems to be that the voters are responsible for all bad decisions made as a result of actions of elected officials. Ergo, you got yourself into this mess and are to blame, according to your logic. Sure, it seemed like a good idea at the time and made economic sense, but getting conned because of greed isn't an excuse, right?

 

Not that I agree with any of the views that Delbert (who I believe is UK based) has displayed but to support to an extent; the UK and other non-Eurozone members of the European Union were asked (very gently iirc) if they would like to support the bailouts of EUROZONE states necessitated by the collapse of the banking system and the long term fallout that created. As the UK has virtually no political control over the EURO this could have been the situation Delbert was raving about a few posts back.

 

These states declined - notably with the UK PM making it sound like he had to fight a battalion rather than just say no thank you. The UK has a tiny exposure through our (very) limited funds making up the capital of the ECB and of course about 10 billion bucks worth that our banks have lent. But for a while when this started the Central Powers (pun intended) of the EU wanted the EUROZONE bail-out to be by all of the EU not just by the EUROZONE. It is easy to confuse the old EC (the open market for capital goods and labour), the EU (the burgeoning political union) , and the EUROZONE (the single currency member countries); especially when the lines are deliberately blurred by the institutions that serve all three, the local politicians who wish to score cheap points, and the journos who just want another ukip-friendly story.

[Delbert]

 

 

Ergo, you got yourself into this mess and are to blame, according to your logic. Sure, it seemed like a good idea at the time and made economic sense, but getting conned because of greed isn't an excuse, right?

Au contraire, I voted against it. Anyway and again, I think you're missing the point, if not the whole concept of democracy. Which party enters the corridors of power is as a consequence of the voice of the collective organism formed by the people - not by the particular individual desires of any one person like you or me. We all have to go along with the crowd.

 

Anyway, according to reports there's a slight element of sanity has emerged, with countries not in the Euro not being invoiced for bailout cash. But it's early days yet.

 

These states declined - notably with the UK PM making it sound like he had to fight a battalion rather than just say no thank you.

Declined! If I was in power I wouldn't use such a word - rather something from Prince Phillip's dictionary.

 

So, thrown some more money at the situation. And according to reports I understand the IMF are saying they'll need an awful lot more and unlikely to pay any of it back. What lesson is that for others? I'm inclined to place money on others saying, nay demanding: where's mine? A madhouse developing nicely.

[swansont]

Au contraire, I voted against it.

 

Not a criterion in your stated position: All voters are responsible for the outcome, because democracy.

[iNow]

For those of you who are curious to learn more about the points Overtone has been making about a large underlying component of Greece's current situation being due to influence from the banking industry, here are two good primers / summaries:

 

http://robertreich.org/post/124342268010

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/07/greece-crisis-banks-greedy/398603/

Edited July 17, 2015 by iNow

[overtone]

 

 

Every scam or con depends on two things, the greed or desperation of the victim.

That is false. The victims of embezzlement by people they were conned into trusting, for example, or the victims of identity theft, or the pension fund dependents whose fund managers were deceived by credentials and dishonest ratings agencies, are neither greedy or desperate.

 

So if someone comes along and offers you junk bonds with astronomical rates of return, and you take them because of your greed, you've been conned. And at least some of the blame is on you

Very few Greek citizens made any such decision, or any decision resembling that. They were instead victimized by sophisticated financiers engaging in calculated and deliberate deception, corruption of their government, etc.

And these moneylenders and capitalist profiteers are currently lined up to receive yet more money, from Eurozone and Greek taxpayers.

Edited July 20, 2015 by overtone

[Delbert]

 

Not a criterion in your stated position: All voters are responsible for the outcome, because democracy.

Sorry, don't understand the logic. How can those who didn't vote for a lunatic voted into office be held responsible for the actions of said lunatic?

[swansont]

Sorry, don't understand the logic. How can those who didn't vote for a lunatic voted into office be held responsible for the actions of said lunatic?

Yes, indeed. Your previous statements do lack in logic.

[Delbert]

Yes, indeed. Your previous statements do lack in logic.

Au contraire once again. It seems to me it's you that do not understand the logical or fundamental difference between the collective action of an organism (referred to as the 'voice of the people' in my analogy), and the action or view of an individual within it.

 

The action or direction of an organism is the result of the collective motions of individuals within it. Some maybe pulling one way with others the other way. For you to suggest that a particular individual is responsible for what such an organism does as the result of the actions of others pulling in the opposite direction, I can only describe as ludicrous logic.

 

To take an example: It's like saying those in parliament that vote against a particular bill are responsible for the consequences if the bill is passed because others voted for it! In that case those who voted against the Iraq war are responsible for that war because others voted for the war! Obsoletely ludicrous.

[dimreepr]

Au contraire once again. It seems to me it's you that do not understand the logical or fundamental difference between the collective action of an organism (referred to as the 'voice of the people' in my analogy), and the action or view of an individual within it.

 

 

That very much depends on the intelligence of the individual.

[MigL]

You aren't grasping swansont's argument Delbert.

He's assigning blame to you for the actions of your elected officials just like you blamed all Greeks for the actions of their elected officials.

Even those that voted agains or didn't vote.

[swansont]

Au contraire once again. It seems to me it's you that do not understand the logical or fundamental difference between the collective action of an organism (referred to as the 'voice of the people' in my analogy), and the action or view of an individual within it.

 

The action or direction of an organism is the result of the collective motions of individuals within it. Some maybe pulling one way with others the other way. For you to suggest that a particular individual is responsible for what such an organism does as the result of the actions of others pulling in the opposite direction, I can only describe as ludicrous logic.

 

To take an example: It's like saying those in parliament that vote against a particular bill are responsible for the consequences if the bill is passed because others voted for it! In that case those who voted against the Iraq war are responsible for that war because others voted for the war! Obsoletely ludicrous.

So why are all Greeks responsible for the actions of their government? (And thereby made to suffer the consequences) Surely the politicians were not elected unanimously.

[Delbert]

So why are all Greeks responsible for the actions of their government? (And thereby made to suffer the consequences) Surely the politicians were not elected unanimously.

All Greeks? I'm not sure I said anything of the sort. Without looking back I recall I said 'the voters' in my description of who were to blame. Well, I clearly made the mistake of assuming it was obvious that it's the ones that voted 'for' or 'yes' to whatever, were the ones to blame.

 

It's the poor sods I feel sorry for who voted 'against' whatever that suffer the consequences of the larger number that voted 'for' (or whichever way around, just in case someone forensically examines my 'for' and 'against'!). But baring the pain of the majority's voting preference is the price we have to bare for democracy; democracy's a diabolical way to run a country I know, but as I think someone once said: better than all the others.

 

I'm sorry, but this whole forensic examination by plainly ignoring what I would've thought to be the blindingly obvious aspect of my comments, I find quite interesting. Off topic, but interesting nonetheless.

 

I'll have to be so much more circumspect and aware of minutiae in commenting and try to avoid such oversight in future.