Trump Vs Mexico

[MigL]

Well then in the interest of communication and understanding, please explain to me what is the pertinence of their educational level ?

Sometimes like in Jazz, the words that aren't spoken are the loudest.

[CharonY]

From what I understand it seems to me that for an ideal political discourse the participants should have the information that allows them to make fact-based decisions. Thus, it would be beneficial to have access to education for as many people as possible to enable support of policies that may actually enable a given desired outcome. I.e. it would emancipate the voters from the politician's (and lobbyists) rhetoric, so to say. Of course there are also many matters that are so complex that even the best models would be at best speculative.

It does not mean that uneducated should not vote. But rather it would be in their best interest to figure out whether their vote would actually result in what they hope to achieve. Either that or I need more coffee.

[Bill Angel]

I'm 67 and my only source of income is Social Security, so these factoids about the the relationship of illegal immigrants to the Social Security system seemed worth mentioning:

The truth is that undocumented immigrants contribute more in payroll taxes than they will ever consume in public benefits.

Take Social Security. According to the Social Security Administration (SSA), unauthorized immigrants -- who are not eligible to receive Social Security benefits -- have paid an eye-popping $100 billion into the fund over the past decade.

"They are paying an estimated $15 billion a year into Social Security with no intention of ever collecting benefits," Stephen Goss, chief actuary of the SSA told CNNMoney. "Without the estimated 3.1 million undocumented immigrants paying into the system, Social Security would have entered persistent shortfall of tax revenue to cover payouts starting in 2009," he said.

As the baby boom generation ages and retires, immigrant workers are key to shoring up Social Security and counteracting the effects of the decline in U.S.-born workers paying into the system, Goss said.

Without immigrants, the Social Security Board of Trustees projects that the system will no longer be able to pay the full promised benefits by 2037.

Source http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/

[iNow]

Well then in the interest of communication and understanding, please explain to me what is the pertinence of their educational level ?

It's called an "observation." Those who support Trump seem to do so on a visceral level, not generally on a cerebral one. He appeals to their anger and discontent and disgust with the system. He's not exactly bringing people to his side with deeply-thought, well-reasoned, 17-point plans and unassailable logic. His comments are internally inconsistent, often senseless, and vapid.

 

As a general rule, those who are more intelligent and/or educated tend to see through that facade and the folks that support him appear to do so based on how well he reflects their rage as opposed to how well he lays out his plans and policies. Education frequently helps to inoculate people against such bluster and bombast, so those who find him most appealing tend to be the least educated, and it's hardly as if I'm the only one making this point (since the polls provide evidence in its favor): http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/07/27/donald-trumps-surge-is-heavily-reliant-on-less-educated-americans-heres-why/

 

Does this sufficiently clarify for you, or must we continue spinning our wheels on this tangent?

[Ten oz]

Don't misunderstand. I think D. Trump would be the biggest mistake America has ever made.

 

But its a series of very small steps from Willie saying Trump supporters are uneducated, to INow replying that they don't think ( I think he actually said do the calculus about him ), to someone else saying, well, maybe they shouldn't get a vote.

 

Even uneducated Jeds have a right to an opinion and a vote in a democratic society.

Pointing out their educational deficiencies, 'implies' that they don't know what they're talking about, and their thinking is in error.

Trump has made a 'connection' with issues that are important, maybe not to you and me, but certainly to them.

The other candidates so far, haven't. Nor have they explained why these issues may not be so important.

To say that other candidates haven't made a connection is plain wrong. Jeb Bush, Scott Walker, Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton, and etc have all held elected office. They have all proven the ability to win the support of an electorate. Trump hasn't. Donald Trump has never won an election in his life. While the other candidates you claim haven't "explained why these issues may not be so important" have. So they must have explained something to an electorate at some point.

Trump's supporters have energy and passion. That should not be confused with having numbers and electoral influence.

[Airbrush]

......Those who support Trump seem to do so on a visceral level, not generally on a cerebral one. He appeals to their anger and discontent and disgust with the system. He's not exactly bringing people to his side with deeply-thought, well-reasoned, 17-point plans and unassailable logic. His comments are internally inconsistent, often senseless, and vapid.

 

Trump is like a kinder, gentler Hitler. People such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Tojo, Saddam Hussein, grew up in vicious war times, so they learned to be ruthless and vicious. Trump is not going to practice genocide, but if he become president, which is a good possiblity, what would this country become, "great" or what? War with Iran?

Edited August 18, 2015 by Airbrush

[DrP]

Do you want to become "great" at the expense of the poor and the environment though?

You can be great anyway!

[DimaMazin]

 

Trump is like a kinder, gentler Hitler. People such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Tojo, Saddam Hussein, grew up in vicious war times, so they learned to be ruthless and vicious. Trump is not going to practice genocide, but if he become president, which is a good possiblity, what would this country become, "great" or what? War with Iran?

When people can't make changes then they want to get them.

[Phi for All]

Trump is not going to practice genocide, but if he become president, which is a good possiblity, what would this country become, "great" or what?

 

I'm going with "what?", since you had to first defend the question with an empty assurance that my future president isn't a monster.

[MigL]

You consider it 'spinning our wheels'; I consider it a valid point, iNow.

 

There are tons of reasons to attack and discredit D. Trump's ideas and possible policies.

The fact that his supporters aren't well educated is not one of them, nor should it be.

And this is just an observation.

 

Now I'm gonna join CharonY and have a cup of coffee.

[overtone]

There are tons of reasons to attack and discredit D. Trump's ideas and possible policies.

The fact that his supporters aren't well educated is not one of them, nor should it be.

It's not that uneducated people support him. It's that only uneducated people support him, and only uneducated people of a certain general type.

 

How about the fact that his supporters are uneducated, white, racially bigoted, misogynistic, violent, authoritarian, have a chip on their shoulders, and are proud of all those characteristics? Is there no point at which the nature of a politician's support, the faction they represent and claim to be planning to act in service of, has any bearing on their desirability as an office holder?

Thing is, Trump has no ideas or policies relevant to actual governance. He's not visionary, he's reactionary. So the only real issue with him is who and what he reacts against most forcefully, and what kind of backing he would have in these reactions. And this is true of Republicans generally.

We aren't trying to discredit Trump's ideas or policies. We're trying to discredit his - and his Party's, which he so well represents - fitness to govern.

Edited August 19, 2015 by overtone

[swansont]

 

Sometimes like in Jazz, the words that aren't spoken are the loudest.

 

They always have to be inferred, and when you make a mistake that's on you, not the person speaking. I mean, you said it's a few short steps from what was said to disenfranchisement, but what if you didn't say that you disagreed with that. "Obviously" that would mean you agree, and that would make you a monster. Except you never would have said anything of the sort.

 

That's the problem with focusing on things not said.

[DrP]

When you make a mistake in jazz it is best to repeat that mistake a couple of times so it sounds like you were meant to play it that way and the 'error' then just sounds like freaky impro. ;-) Somehow I do not think that this will work with politics and government though. lol.

[MigL]

That's verifiably false DrP, many politicians make the same mistakes over and over , yet keep getting re-elected.

Or were you talking about me.

( all this talk about things NOT said is getting me confsed )

 

All I'm going to say on the subject is that by saying people who agree with certain ideas are uneducated, you imply that those ideas are worthless because only unintelligent people support them.

If the ideas are worthless it should be easy enough to demonstrate ( and they certainly are with D. Trump ).

Why do you need to bring in people's station in life ( yes a lot of people can't afford higher education ).

[DrP]

I did not say that! ;-)

 

Luckily in most modern 1st world countries you can get a top education regardless of where you are from - it just depends on your grades. Just as you can get free health care if you get ill or have an accident so that you don't end up like it is in some shitty parts of the world where only the rich can afford education and medical treatment. ;-)

[swansont]

All I'm going to say on the subject is that by saying people who agree with certain ideas are uneducated, you imply that those ideas are worthless because only unintelligent people support them.

 

Again, that's your interpretation, and you risk assuming the person holds a certain position when there's no evidence of that. One might simply acknowledge that there is a correlation here — worthless ideas are supported only by uneducated and/or unintelligent people, without the causality you have invoked. An uneducated and/or unintelligent person may think it's a good idea to do something the a more intelligent and/or educated person wouldn't (insert Darwin Award action here). The idea isn't worthless because they liked it, but it is nonetheless worthless. IOW correlation ≠ causality.

[iNow]

... by saying people who agree with certain ideas are uneducated...

Just to add to the excellent replies already provided above, note that it wasn't a personal opinion regarding his supporters being largely uneducated. I shared that based on actual available evidence based on actual polling data across multiple polls. That's not to say I didn't add commentary, but the point about education levels is very much evidence based.

[Willie71]

Uneducated people may hold many ideas that more educated people hold. However, uneducated people may hold ideas that educated people have proven to be false, such as the idea that immigrants commit more crimes, and take more out of the economy than they bring in, policy would be based on erroneous information. Uneducated people don't have to be dumb, but it's harder for educated people to stay dumb, well, with all that exposure to evidence and books and stuff.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Willie71

[Airbrush]

 

I'm going with "what?", since you had to first defend the question with an empty assurance that my future president isn't a monster.

 

Trump didn't fight as a soldier in any wars, like the list of monsters I listed. He is a big, confrontational mouth, but will he go nutty on the world with a big stick?

 

Did he ever say HOW he was going to get Mexico to pay for a wall on the border? Or is that among his list of "executive" secrets he needs to keep so ISIS, Iran, Russia, China, Mexico, etc. won't know what they are in for with Trump as president?

Edited August 19, 2015 by Airbrush

[Willie71]

Trump didn't fight as a soldier in any wars, like the list of monsters I listed. He is a big, confrontational mouth, but will he go nutty on the world with a big stick?

 

Did he ever say HOW he was going to get Mexico to pay for a wall on the border? Or is that among his list of "executive" secrets he needs to keep so ISIS, Iran, Russia, China, Mexico, etc. won't know what they are in for with Trump as president?

He came up with a plan, but it's pretty much nonsense. It would result in international discord, possible sanctions against the U.S., and dismantling the positive US/Mexico trade relationship.

 

You can watch it here:

 

https://www.tytnetwork.com/2015/08/18/trump-lays-out-mexican-border-wall-plan/

[Airbrush]

Why a wall on the US/Mexico border? What about the idea of having two fences, about 20 feet high topped with barbed wire, with a road between them for the border patrol? The area just south of the border is covered with hidden sensors that tell the guards when people are approaching the fence so a patrol can be sent out to meet them. Can you install sensors along the border that can detect tunnels being dug under the boarder?

Edited August 20, 2015 by Airbrush

[Phi for All]

Why a wall on the US/Mexico border? What about the idea of having two fences, about 20 feet high topped with barbed wire, with a road between them for the border patrol? The area just south of the border is covered with hidden sensors that tell the guards when people are approaching the fence so a patrol can be sent out to meet them. Can you install sensors along the border that can detect tunnels being dug under the boarder?

 

Penn & Teller did an episode on that. It takes a fraction of the time spent building fences to circumvent them. Under, over, or through, you can't build a fence you can afford over that much land that can actually keep people out. And even with sensors, we don't have enough manpower to patrol the whole thing.

[John Cuthber]

Why a wall on the US/Mexico border? What about the idea of having two fences, about 20 feet high topped with barbed wire, with a road between them for the border patrol? The area just south of the border is covered with hidden sensors that tell the guards when people are approaching the fence so a patrol can be sent out to meet them. Can you install sensors along the border that can detect tunnels being dug under the boarder?

Shouldn't this discussion be in Tonkawa, Comanche or some such?

[MigL]

Back to D. Trump...

 

That blowhard has gone up in the polls to within 5 % points of H. Clinton the Democrat front-runner and has completely left behind his competitors for the Republican nomination such as J. Bush.

He has gone from ralleys in venues seating thousands, to venues seating tens of thousands, and is on the cover of Time magazine.

Thank goodness there are still 15 odd months to the election.

 

Maybe this thread should be rolled into the "What is America's Biggest Problem" thread.

Edited August 21, 2015 by MigL

[iNow]

Maybe this thread should be rolled into the "What is America's Biggest Problem" thread.

Lol. Well played, sir.