Is it the Universe created alone? Yes or not? Only Yes or Not.

[Strange]

What are quarks then

 

 

They are the fundamental particles that make up protons and neutrons.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_particle#/media/File:Standard_Model_of_Elementary_Particles.svg

[Memammal]

Yes the universe was created by God and hell no it isn't the only universe its part of a multiverse which is part of a megaverse and so on it can go infinitely down and up and each level is infinite and has infiniteevs and so on so kniw not even close to all that exists

I suggest that you resist making such sweeping statements as above...

...only to be followed by:

Hey I am not having a scientific argument I just think it does and out of curiosity does anyone know what levels are below subatomic particles or aren't there any discovered

[disarray]

Memammal: Having been informed that the great chain of being goes infinitely up to megaverses and infinitely down (to miniverses?), I am tempted to drink a little sacramental wine myself, just to see what other wisdom flows from the vineyards. One question though: Aren't all particles smaller than subatomic ones still subatomic?

[Memammal]

I suppose they decrease further down the ladder of subatomicness into infiniteevs

[tar]

Ultimate Infinity,

 

I think perhaps the world is big enough, and fine enough, even it it was finitely so.

 

In your muses, as you change grain size up, or change grain size down, consider how the things, that must exist on all levels, change character, and therefore do not lend themselves to creating a reality exactly like the larger, only smaller, or exactly like the smaller only larger.

 

Two or three thoughts to bring with you on your grain size travels. Light speed. Orbits. and Brownian motion.

 

A couple times ten down you start getting into a different situation where electric and magnetic waves transit across the scene so rapidly as that what light or gravity would mean to you, as this tiny observer, would change character, from what it means to you as a human size observer. For instance how do you evolve sensors that differentiate between red wavelengths and blue wavelengths, if your sensor is smaller than a wavelength of either? And what light "means" on the subatomic level, is a different thing than what it "means" on a galactic scale, where the same impulse that flashed across the scene below will take a million years to transit the scene above.

 

And Brownian motion. What is the analog at this level? What is the analog at the galactic level. How long does it take to shake a planet? What the energy of a photon does to a star is a different thing than what it does to a microbe.

 

And orbits. It has been suggested that atoms are like little solar systems, only the analogues all do not work. And from human scale the orbits of an electron are more of a probabilistic endeavor, than the plotting of a repeating ellipse that will help account for the seasons. So what time scale and distance from the atom do you imagine to assess its reality.

 

So you can't take you with you, when you go on these trips. When scale changes, everything changes.

 

We are thusly insulated from the smallest that there is, and the largest that there is, by the time scale set by our lifetimes and the time it takes a neural pulse to travel to and from the tips of our toes, and by the size scale set by the reach of our arms and the size of our stride, the wavelengths of light and sound we can sense and the periods that are discernable between the lifetime of our universe, and the spin of a quark.

 

To suggest there must be more in every direction, ignores the fact that there already is more, more than we can handle, more than we can ever know, and more than we will ever need.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited June 29, 2016 by tar

[Memammal]

TAR, I am trying to discern the purpose of your post but please first confirm that you intended to direct it at me and if so, what would be the relevance?

[tar]

Forgive me Memammal. Let me plead temporary insanity. It was directed at ultimate infinity, and his claim that things go forever up and forever down, forever out and forever in, or what ever it was he was claiming. I edited the post, to address the proper addressee

[Ultimate Infinity]

 

 

They are the fundamental particles that make up protons and neutrons.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_particle#/media/File:Standard_Model_of_Elementary_Particles.svg

Thanks

Look folks I am going to be dead honest with you- I am not smart enough to contend with your brilliant minds but I do enjoy reading and learning from all of you so please forgive me if my posts are below your level- but that said - TAR don't you think it would be awesome if everything were infinite I mean we could study the smallest of scales forever right

And are you getting at the fact that everything is different such as energy light etc at each level

[tar]

Ultimate Infinity,

 

I suppose it could be awesome, in theory, but in practice it would rather fleeting.

 

That is suppose you found a civilization living on an electron. You couldn't talk to it, one vibration of one wavelength of the Bflat note you spoke the h in hello with, would span perhaps 30 generations or whatever, and the situation you saw one microsecond would be gone before the light announcing the situation to you reached your equipment and was processed and sent to your computer screen and to your eye and to your brain. That is, whole lifetimes of the tiny folk would go by in an moment of your existence. So awesome? I don't think so. More frustrating, as you could not ever do anything for or to or with anything you discovered.

 

Perhaps it is already awesome to be the giant god scale being, relative to any entity occurring at the subatomic scale. Except as distant as we are from such a tiny world, because of scale, we are additionally distant to a similar tiny entity on a fingenail on a person on the other side of the world. That is, how you going to keep all these tiny enities in mind? They really don't matter much to us, only the macro sum total of their activity would make a ripple in our world, or make any difference to us.

 

So basically I think we already have a pretty awesome situation, already immense and long lived, beyond belief, and already quicker and tinier, more numerous and intricate than we can imagine. What could be better than that? What difference would it make if infinities were true?

 

Regards, TAR

Edited June 30, 2016 by tar

[tar]

Ultimate Infinity,

 

Perhaps you are just finding the idea of infinity neat. Like I say a number, the biggest I can imagine, and you say that number, plus one. Like in this discussion, the idea of multiverses, trumps the idea of just one, created alone. Like there always is a before, always an after, always the next bigger entity, and always the entities that make up an entity. I claim the whole universe, and you imagine it a grain on a beach of universes. Well perhaps this is true, perhaps we just like to think that way. Either way, there comes a time where we are sufficiently insulated from the beginning and end of the universe, and sufficiently insulated from the other side of even a finite universe, and sufficiently insolated in time and space from the activities of a quark, that having areas of reality from which we are even more insulated, is not only awesome, but also depressing as we can never "get there" to witness it.

 

For instance, let's say I am going to say a number, and you plan to then say the number, and add one, to trump me, but it takes me 50 years to say my biggest number. What are you going to do, take the following 50 years of your life, to pronounce the number I just pronounced, so you can add one syllable to the end? Or worse yet, what if it is going to take me an infinite amount of time to pronounce my infinitely large number. You will never get the chance to pronounce it again, and add one syllable to it, because that would take two infinities to accomplish.

 

So by claiming there is always something smaller, and always something larger, I think you have forced an answer to the thread question. And I think the answer is the universe absolutely is created alone. For if it is, it is. If it is not, we can never get there to verify, so it might just as well be considered as having been created alone.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited June 30, 2016 by tar

[Ultimate Infinity]

Tar

I agree with you on many things I do enjoy discussing with you because you bring up many valid points your right the universe is freaking amazing itself but I just feel as though there is much much more do I have evidence not really but does that bother me not really I am not saying I am right I thought it was just an interesting idea to put out there

[disarray]

Tar...You say, "For if it is, it is. If it is not, we can never get there to verify, so it might just as well be considered as having been created alone".

 

Is this your way of saying "we don't know and we can't know, so it doesn't matter" ?

 

If we don't know, why should we assume that we are alone any more than we should assume that we are not alone?

 

Perhaps you mean, "We feel as if we are alone, and we don't have any reason to believe that we aren't, so we might as well accept it." This is, I think, an existentialist approach.

 

A religious approach is something like, "We feel as if we are alone, but let's be positive, and assume that the universe has meaning, and that in one way or another, we are not alone."

 

Perhaps the existentialist approach is more scientific, or at least more "realistic" given the lack of evidence that we aren't alone, as you say.

The religious approach is more susceptible to self-delusion, but hey, they say that religious people tend to be healthier, perhaps, in part, because they are more optimistic.

Edited June 30, 2016 by disarray

[Ultimate Infinity]

I believe that they are probably infinite other sentient beings like us throughout existence

[tar]

disarray,

 

Well yes, if we can't know, it is not pertinent. That is, if it ever was or ever will be pertinent then we should be able to witness it or imagine its existence as being required, or evident in some manner, or discern that things should later be a certain way, or something. In all those cases one could easily assign the entity or process or situation or arrangement of matter and energy as being belonging to this universe. Either it exists now in this universe, is the cause or effect of this universe, or is the fundamental framework upon which this universe is built, or the basic stage upon which universes happen, which all carry with them a "belonging to" as in any way that reality IS arranged, is the way THIS reality is arranged, and is therefore "my" reality. My universe, my Cosmos, my existence, and nothing related to it, shadowed by it or casting a shadow on it, is "other" than "our" universe. If there is an existence that has nothing to do with this one, then it has nothing to do with this one, and we have no need to care about it.

 

As far as other sentient beings, I would guess there are. Same as there are people on some Pacific island that have not contacted the rest of the world in 20 years, there could easily be other places in the galaxy that have spawned life...and some entity or another aware of it's own existence. And given the number of galaxies out there, the number of these entities is probably large. But infinite...this is not required. Perhaps the case. It seems reasonable, that whatever is came from whatever was before, and with no starting point being required...always existing, would translate to infinite.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited June 30, 2016 by tar

[Moontanman]

I believe that they are probably infinite other sentient beings like us throughout existence

 

 

Could be, in fact it's quite probable!

[Strange]

 

 

Could be, in fact it's quite probable!

 

See. Anyone can believe things with no evidence! (I will run and hide now )

[Ultimate Infinity]

 

See. Anyone can believe things with no evidence! (I will run and hide now )

Ya I am new to this site but I can tell mootanmann is evidence driven( which isn't insult by an means)

[Moontanman]

 

See. Anyone can believe things with no evidence! (I will run and hide now )

 

 

I can be nice

[Ultimate Infinity]

 

 

I can be nice

I will not believe that until I have evidence😂😜

[Moontanman]

I will not believe that until I have evidence

 

 

You are smarter than i thought...

[Ultimate Infinity]

Thanks man I try to match up to you adult physicists

[Enric]

Well, some people think that the Universe, and its enormous and mastodontic weight, appeared alone. And other people think that something it's responsible.

[tar]

Enric,

 

Although the universe is a rather extensive, non singular type of thing, that goes on in quite a few directions and ways. Alone perhaps, in that there is nothing other than, but I have always had a problem with requiring there to be something responsible for existence. The problem is then, once you posit this responsible party, who or what is responsible for the existence of this responsible party?

 

Regards, TAR

[Enric]

With all modesty. I think there's no rational answer for us. We have in front of us only something absurd and irrational. It's hard to live with this, but... After infinite questions, infinite doubts and answers. Maybe we have not enough brain (yet), perhaps the complete knowledge is forbidden for us.

 

Or, more simply, the infinite essence and the infinite mechanism and processes of the Universe make impossible for our limited brains to understand all. Maybe we need an infinite brain to know everything about end and start of it.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Enric

[Enric]

Another possibility not so, so irrational (only a very little less) is science fiction, or absurd, or stupid... I don't know how to describe it... Perhaps, in a far future, and maybe not us, the intelligence in the Universe can alterate the past and create the Universe itself, in a Loop, or in a paradox. It exists because is created by itself, and it's created because exists and reach a degree of intelligence that can self-create. Another infinite loop. Well, it's completely science fiction, but it does not sound worse.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Enric