Michael Jackson

[Hellbender]

What do you think? Is he guilty? Why do you think so?

[Bettina]

GUILTY

 

Call it a hunch.

 

Bettina

[Coral Rhedd]

Smoke once? Could just be someone smoking a cigarette. Smoke twice? There's fire. Guess he's lucky I'm not on the jury.

[Mokele]

I'm actually not sure. On one hand, a lot of what he's done and does would be interpreted as indicative of pedophilia in a normal person. But he is most definitely *not* a normal person, and his particular oddity leads to the possibility that all of these "warning signs" are merely being mis-interpreted because we're looking at them in the wrong light.

 

Normally, I'd say these signs point to guilty, but he's such a collosally weird person that it's hard to say. I wouldn't be suprised if he slept with kids but in a totally non-sexual sense (as in sharing a bed while unconscious). It's such a weird context and world he lives in that we can't infer based on normal patterns of behavior.

 

Mokele

[Phi for All]

It's such a weird context and world he lives in that we can't infer based on normal patterns of behavior.

Alcoholic: "Hey, you can't hold me accountable, I was drunk!"

 

Bush: "Hey, you can't hold me accountable, I say things wrong all the time!"

 

Michael Jackson: "Hey you can't hold me accountable, I'm weird!"

 

Ugly pattern.

[ffsjoe]

I think he is guilty and I totally agree with Phi.

He said somthing like sharing a bed with a young person is a beatiful thing, but that he didn't do anything illegal. He is an adult and you just dont do that. I reckon that he is crazy, he acts like a child, he thinks he is one, with all that plastic surgery. He built an amusment park for himself so little boys would come to his place and play. I say he should go to gaol.

[Coral Rhedd]

I think he is guilty and I totally agree with Phi.

He said somthing like sharing a bed with a young person is a beatiful thing' date=' but that he didn't do anything illegal. He is an adult and you just dont do that. I reckon that he is crazy, he acts like a child, he thinks he is one, with all that plastic surgery. He built an amusment park for himself so little boys would come to his place and play. I say he should go to gaol.[/quote']

 

Emotional immaturity is one of the hallmarks of pedophiles. One of the reasons he's weird is that he is rich and an entertainer. He thinks that from his position he in less vulnerable. Pedophiles without these advantages take considerably more trouble to fit in. Standing out from others is not generally an advantage for people who want to babysit your kids.

 

Generally, look for the guy who is the nicest fella in the neighborhood. The one who will do you favors. Agree with all your opinions. Reflect how you think and feel. You know, the guy you trust.

[mustang292]

I think it's too hard to decide unless I was on the jury. I know of too many people who were convicted of crimes and then later released after being found truly innocent.

 

The guy is definitely not mainstream, but Lisa Presley was on Oprah the other day and said they had regular sex just like a regular married couple. So, what was that all about then. A publicity stunt would have been just the marriage, they went further than that. She also said she never saw him do anything out of the ordinary. Now, you would think that someone that close to him would know more than all the tabloid readers who have already decided he is guilty.

 

I won't say yes or no, because I am not on the jury to see all the evidence.

[mustang292]

Posted by Coral Rhedd:Generally, look for the guy who is the nicest fella in the neighborhood. The one who will do you favors. Agree with all your opinions. Reflect how you think and feel. You know, the guy you trust.

 

Coral, unless you have a deree in psychology, you might want to rethink what you just said.

 

My uncle was a gay pedophile (not proud to admit it) and he molested my brother. He went to jail for it, got aids while he was in their and died a few years ago. He was never trusted by us, didn't agree to our opinions and was definetily not the nicest guy in the neighborhood. The situation happened at my aunts house where my brother was visiting and my uncle came in unexpectadly during the middle of the night. (you don't need to know the rest.)

 

Instead of making a statement maybe you should say "I think" instead.

Example: I think there are many reasons from alcohol to the sexually depraved. Who knows? I am not a psychologist.

[Coral Rhedd]

Coral' date=' unless you have a deree in psychology, you might want to rethink what you just said.

 

My uncle was a gay pedophile (not proud to admit it) and he molested my brother. He went to jail for it, got aids while he was in their and died a few years ago. He was never trusted by us, didn't agree to our opinions and was definetily not the nicest guy in the neighborhood. The situation happened at my aunts house where my brother was visiting and my uncle came in unexpectadly during the middle of the night. (you don't need to know the rest.)

 

Instead of making a statement maybe you should say "I think" instead.

Example: I think there are many reasons from alcohol to the sexually depraved. Who knows? I am not a psychologist.[/quote']

 

I have been a victim advocate. I am a Court-Appointed Special Advocate for children. I have researched pedophiles and spoken about them publicly large groups and to victims of sexual abuse receiving group therapy. I was on a committee that helped write a victim's rights bill in Arizona that sadly did not pass due a veto by the then governor, who at the time feeling sore about having faced investigation over some campaign irregularities. He was miffed at prosecuting attorneys, who widely supported the bill.

 

I am sorry for what happened to your brother. I have recently been comforting a friend whose daughter was molested by her nephew. Child sexual abuse is devastating not only to the direct victims of the abuse but to their families as well. However, the most successful pedophiles (and therefore arguably some of the most dangerous because they claim so many victims) are good at blending in.

 

I do separate pedophilia from homosexuality. They do not usually go together. A man who molests boys exclusively and has no interest in adults of either sex is no more a homosexual than a man who molests girls exclusively and has no interest in adult women is a heterosexual. As disturbing as it may seem, sex with children is the exclusive preference of many pedophiles. Their interest in adult sex, gay or straight can be nonexistent. If they form relationships with adults, as pedophiles sometimes do, they often have one of two motives: To use "normal" sexuality as cover or to get close to that man or woman's children.

 

You are right that there are many behaviors of sexual abusers. Some drink, some don't. Some are married, some are single. Some abuse the children of strangers and some grow their own victims in the form of their sons or daughters.

 

One of the problems with getting juries to convict sexual abusers of children, is that the juries prefer to think that the sexual abuser looks like some kind of monster. That he is identifiably different from the rest of us. Most of the time, he is not. If we are ever going to educate the public about child sexual abuse, we are going to have to convince them that ministers, attorneys, businessmen, coaches, scout leaders and fathers and mothers can be sexual abusers. Sexual abusers are not just gays, drunks, and ex-cons. They suffer from serious mental illness no more often than the rest of us. They don't drool. What sets them apart is that (generally) their sexual partner of choice is a child.

 

Every time a jury sets a pedophile free because they do not believe that someone that shared their community, who seems respectable, who has never been in trouble before could have done such a dreadful thing, they add to the toll that abuser will take upon the lives of children. The average pedophile will claim over 70 victims in his lifetime. The better he is at blending in, the more victims he* will claim.

 

*I do not mean to imply that only men commit sexual abuse of children. Women sexual abusers do exist, working in tandem with men or alone. I have met many women, and some men, who were sexually abused by their mothers.

[klanger]

i am not sure if he is guilty, there is so much smoke and mirrors covering this case. Personally i think the parents should be taken to court for negligence, regardless of innocence or guilt this subject has come up before his character was in question before, i know i wouldnt have let my children stay overnight with him because of that. The mother in this instance appears to have made a carreer out of suing people that puts doubt in my mind as to whether she is following her own trend or has a real case against MJ. As far as the man himself yeah he is weird he is child like, maybe as a result of having no childhood himself and then with money was able to show kids what it is to be a child to have fun and not worry about adult commitments .... i dont know it all seems a little too convenient i guess, the press go to town on everyone famous and seem to thrive on making something good turn bad so who knows.

[AzurePhoenix]

I don't care whether he actually did it or not, I just want the jury to vote guilty for no other reason to see him go to prison in an attempt to sate my humor. Even Martha Stewart could make that little albino trog her biotch in the pen.

[Flareon]

Phi, you crack me up.

 

 

 

I don't know, I think the better to question to ask would be, "will he be convicted?" I know MJ less than I would a stranger because he is a mega-celebrity and so much crap has been and is written about him that it's impossible to decipher truth from fiction. If he gets off, people may still have doubts about his innocence; conversely, if he is convicted, there will be undoubtely many people (fans) who will continue to claim his innocence. Either way, the world may never stop arguing about it.

[Flareon]

I don't care whether he actually did it or not, I just want the jury to vote guilty for no other reason to see him go to prison in an attempt to sate my humor. Even Martha Stewart could make that little albino trog her biotch in the pen.

 

Are you a disillusioned former fan or something?

[AzurePhoenix]

Naw, (I only listen to country) but he just radiates this sickening aura of disgust, similar to the one I percieve around such things as school administrators, vomit, and potato-salad. And his voice pisses me off.

[Mokele]

Alcoholic: "Hey, you can't hold me accountable, I was drunk!"

Bush: "Hey, you can't hold me accountable, I say things wrong all the time!"

Michael Jackson: "Hey you can't hold me accountable, I'm weird!"

Ugly pattern

 

Congrats, you completely missed my point.

 

I did *not* say that he should not be held accountable for a crime if he did commit it. What I said is that ther weirdness of his situation makes it very hard to judge if there was a crime at all based on circumstantial evidence. Now, if they get non-circumstantial evidence, that's much better, but you cannot judge circumstantial evidence without taking the circumstances into account.

 

That's like saying "no sane person would willingly handle an obscenely-venomous snake, therefore Mokele is insane" without taking into acount that I'm a herpetologist.

 

He said somthing like sharing a bed with a young person is a beatiful thing, but that he didn't do anything illegal. He is an adult and you just dont do that.

 

So, wait, did you just actually say that someone should be jailed for the mere appearance of a crime, even if they didn't commit a crime?

 

So, according to you, if I'm seen breaking into my own house because I locked myself out, I should go to jail for theft and breaking/entering because it *looked* like that's what I was doing, even though I wasn't?

 

Sorry, that's just a stupid opinion.

 

Emotional immaturity is one of the hallmarks of pedophiles.

 

But not all emotionally immature people are pedophiles, so emotional immaturity, in-and-of itself is not indicative of guilt.

 

Furthermore, *being* a pedophile isn't against the law. Acting on it is. *Many* pedophiles do the right thing and never act on their urges. How do you know he doesn't have a saintly level or restraint?

 

------------------

 

I'm not saying he's innocent or guilty. What I *AM* saying is that you must be *very* careful about judging innocence or guilt based only on circumstantial evidence. Just because it *seems* likely, given how "normal" people act, doesn't mean it's the case. After all, do you convict someone of murder if there's no evidence except they have anger-management issues?

 

On one hand, yes, there is some suspcious circumstances, and one claimed victim. On the other hand, maybe he's just weird but harmless, society has labeled him in a derogatory way just because he's different, and the "victim" is just making it up to capitalize on the social impression. It's hard to tell.

 

It's a pity we don't simply have a machine that can go into their brains and retrieve the information directly, whether they consent or not. It'd make everything so much simpler, more effective, and just all around better.

 

Mokele

[Coral Rhedd]

It's a pity we don't simply have a machine that can go into their brains and retrieve the information directly' date=' whether they consent or not. It'd make everything so much simpler, more effective, and just all around better.

 

Mokele[/quote']

 

Mokele, I am going to return to this thread later with some links. For now I want to establish that the consent of the minor is not and cannot be the issue here. By definition, child sexual abuse is having sex with children, period. It is a crime because our laws have established that children are vulnerable to adult violence, bribery, seduction, or persuasion. Whichever method are used by the perpetrators, sex with children is against the law.

[Hellbender]

I don't care whether he actually did it or not, I just want the jury to vote guilty for no other reason to see him go to prison in an attempt to sate my humor. Even Martha Stewart could make that little albino trog her biotch in the pen.

 

LOL!! Azure, you really crack me up sometimes. But seriosuly, since I started this thread, i should at least voice my opinions. I was a former fan of Jackson (in the 80's, don't worry), and a lot of my friends and family still are fans. I hear about how he is innocent from them all the time, and how he only had 2 plastic surgeries (snicker), and I am just jealous. The usual Jackson fan rot. I have always known what a strange man he started to become towards the end of the 1980's. Right now, this is probably his 4th accusation for molestation. He still has little boys over to his "neverland" (also a fictional place in the "Peter Pan" story, where children never grow up, think about that) ranch. What kind of freaking idiot would have children over to your house after 3 molestation charges?? I am not saying for sure he is guilty becasue I wasn't there (i'm glad I wasn't, ewww), and I don't know. But like Bettina, I have a hunch he is. Celebrity trials always turn into circuses and are rarely fair. Skipping court hearings, odd behavior, fillabustering by constantly going to the hospital and all the other wierdness Jackson exhibits certainly are not in his best interests. If he is found guilty, I say justice is served, but if he is not (which will probably happen) then that case will always be open to me.

[Mokele]

Mokele, I am going to return to this thread later with some links. For now I want to establish that the consent of the minor is not and cannot be the issue here. By definition, child sexual abuse is having sex with children, period. It is a crime because our laws have established that children are vulnerable to adult violence, bribery, seduction, or persuasion. Whichever method are used by the perpetrators, sex with children is against the law.

 

Coral, you mis-interpreted. What I meant was not determining if things were consensual. What I meant was the ability to extract the information from people's brains, no matter how they feel about it, whether they want to have their mind probed or not. Assuming it doesn't cause permanent damage or anything, of course.

 

It'd make it so much simpler. If you say "so and so did this to me", then you just both get in the machine and the information about precisely what *did* happen is extracted. No more need for lawyers and juries, just the facts.

 

Mokele

[Newtonian]

like a lie detector!!

[Coral Rhedd]

Coral' date=' you mis-interpreted. What I meant was not determining if things were consensual. What I meant was the ability to extract the information from people's brains, no matter how they feel about it, whether they want to have their mind probed or not. Assuming it doesn't cause permanent damage or anything, of course.

 

It'd make it so much simpler. If you say "so and so did this to me", then you just both get in the machine and the information about precisely what *did* happen is extracted. No more need for lawyers and juries, just the facts.

 

Mokele[/quote']

 

The person who invents a machine like that will make a fortune. But he/she will have to overcome some legal hurdles to market such a machine. But even so, it could still only measure each person's perception of events. One interesting take on this is the play/movie Oleanna in which a student and a professor disagree about the details of their relationship and whether or not it was entirely consensual. The viewer understands that both of these people believe they are telling the truth.

 

BTW, there are several ways to beat a polygraph. Usually they are used by law enforcement to elicit a confession or an inconsistency in the statements of the accused. They are only as good as the psychological techniques used by the person who administers them.

 

Ultimately, the Jackson case will be decided on its human elements. Does the jury choose to believe the accuser? Or does the jury choose to believe the celebrity?

[Phi for All]

Congrats, you completely missed my point.

Thanks, but I didn't mean it as a criticism of you or your point. I try to refrain from speculations of guilt during court trials and I refrain from comments on other's speculations. My verdict before the fact is hardly valid.

 

I was commenting on a seemingly conscious pattern with those I mentioned where they use abnormal behavior as a shield against criticism. The sad part is it seems to work well for them. And those aren't the only examples. People forgave former DC mayor Marion Barry of all kinds of bad behavior because he admitted to a crack problem. He even got reelected. And we all know people who get away with sheer rudeness just because they have a reputation as a grumpy old man or woman.

[Coral Rhedd]

Just for fun -- and to break the tension a bit in this rather grim thread -- I thought you might enjoy seeing what a forensic artist thinks Michael Jackson would look like had he never had his surgeries. Nothing like he looks now!

 

http://www.forartist.com/forensic/modification/mj/jackson.htm

[5614]

Guilty, I don't like him... actions etc.

 

I haven't read much into it but I don't really like him so guilty until proven innocent!

 

What? I'm allowed an opinion!!!

[Hellbender]

Coral: holy crap!