georgi_zlatev Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 The pension must be prohibited the way they are today.The pension model is socialist.The pension insurance is collecting in funds which invested the money in companies and the risk is distributed among all who paid this insurance.The people must not paid pension insurance but the money they receive they must to invest at their own risk.In this way public companies will be motivated to earn more profit.Not having such insurance people will be much interested where to invest their money whether In stocks,bonds or land to became a farmer after years.Now people with this pension system are irresponsible.They are so irresponsible so that they do not want to have even children.They think that somebody else must pay their pension in future.The public companies shall also be more concerned in making money.Destroying this pension system people will be motivated to start small businesses and to became farmers and they shall wanted to have children.This pension system is in favour to big companies because they get the money of the pension funds.
John Cuthber Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 OK, that's your point of view. Perhaps your first step should be to tell us what pension system you mean. There are lots. Then you will need to provide some evidence. In particular, you will need to show that a system that has been working successfully for many years is wrong. 1
iNow Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 A lot of assertions there without much support. Do you have a specific pension plan in mind, or is this just an ideological screed / religious stance that no amount of logic or counterargument will alter? * Cross-posted with John
ACG52 Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Sounds like a very Eastern European view, especially the part about becoming farmers in your old age. Back to an agrarian peasant society.
georgi_zlatev Posted August 31, 2015 Author Posted August 31, 2015 OK, that's your point of view. Perhaps your first step should be to tell us what pension system you mean. There are lots. Then you will need to provide some evidence. In particular, you will need to show that a system that has been working successfully for many years is wrong. The system at the moment is socialist.The pension system must be destroyed.You must from your own savings to decide where to invest-not mutual fund as is in the moment.
John Cuthber Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Which system? There are lots For example the pension scheme I am in is funded and run entirely by the government (I work for the government). There is no involvement from the stock market or from shares/ mutual funds or whatever. Edited August 31, 2015 by John Cuthber
iNow Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 The system at the moment is socialist.So are police departments and fire departments and libraries and public universities and medicine in most of the advanced world, so what? You must from your own savings to decide where to invest-not mutual fund as is in the moment.Why not have both?
georgi_zlatev Posted August 31, 2015 Author Posted August 31, 2015 Which system? There are lots For example the pension scheme I am in is funded and run entirely by the government (I work for the government). There is no involvement from the stock market or from shares/ mutual funds or whatever. This mean that the government must pay you much but you will not recieve pension when you became older.The money you get more you must invest in your own risk.
John Cuthber Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) This mean that the government must pay you much but you will not recieve pension when you became older.The money you get more you must invest in your own risk. No. it does not mean that. the system is complicated but here is the simple version. For each year I work I will get 1/80 of my last annual salary when I retire. So, if I retire after working 40 years I will retire on half my final pay. Why do you think that is a problem? Why do you think my pension should depend on how good I am at guessing which stocks and shares will do well in the future? Edited August 31, 2015 by John Cuthber
georgi_zlatev Posted August 31, 2015 Author Posted August 31, 2015 All i see is that you are irresponsible.You want samebody else to take care of you when you grew older.You do not have the courage to take care of your future.
Phi for All Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 The system at the moment is socialist.The pension system must be destroyed.You must from your own savings to decide where to invest-not mutual fund as is in the moment. I disagree that your pension system needs to be destroyed, but I'm almost certain it could be improved. Systems like this benefit the majority, who aren't like you (knowledgeable enough to be capable of making their own investments). Without these systems, you'd pay more in taxes to help these people when they retire with nothing saved. It is socialist, one of the best parts of socialism, imo. When the system is working well.
John Cuthber Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 All i see is that you are irresponsible.You want samebody else to take care of you when you grew older.You do not have the courage to take care of your future. And all I see is that you do not understand pensions. It does not matter if I have courage or not. I am not able to predict the future. It would be stupid for me to pretend that I can. So it would be stupid to base my pension on a guess about what will happen in the future. Do you actually have any evidence for the claims you have made?
iNow Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I still don't understand why the OP suggests one cannot use personal investments AND pension to support future retirement. It's not like they're mutually exclusive. Folks can do both (if they're lucky enough to have high enough wages), so this thread really just feels a bit preachy.
georgi_zlatev Posted August 31, 2015 Author Posted August 31, 2015 In today's pension system it is not clear who eats and drinks and who pays the bill.Only the big companies win from this pension system.
studiot Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) In today's pension system it is not clear who eats and drinks and who pays the bill.Only the big companies win from this pension system. It is certainly not clear what you are talking about. I live in the same country as John Cuthber but my pension provisions are entirely different from his. So I second his call for you first to describe the particular pension system you are attacking. It may interest you to know that in the UK pension is taxable by the recipient, whoever pays the pension. Edited August 31, 2015 by studiot
Roamer Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) The pension model is socialist. I 'm all against forcing people to participate in pensions, however, if people would be free to participate in a pension-system, pensions would still be used by the majority of the people who participate now. Edited August 31, 2015 by Roamer
Strange Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 The pension model is socialist. That is a good thing, then. The people must not paid pension insurance but the money they receive they must to invest at their own risk. And what about people who are not able, for whatever reason, to manage their money like that? In this way public companies will be motivated to earn more profit. Why? Not having such insurance people will be much interested where to invest their money whether In stocks,bonds or land to became a farmer after years. Some people might. Some people might be intimidated by the idea and either not do it or make a mess of it. Some people will just pay someone else to do it. From that will arise companies specialising in this service. (They will probably call themselves "pension companies".) These companies might, eventually, make agreements with employers to take money directly from employee salaries. Then in order to encourage this positive behaviour, the government will off take benefits to these "pension companies". And we are back where we are now. They are so irresponsible so that they do not want to have even children. Do you have any evidence for that? And why is not having children irresponsible (in a world where overpopulation is a problem)? however, if people would be free to participate in a pension-system, pensions would still be used by the majority of the people who participate now. Do you have any evidence that is the case?
Roamer Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Do you have any evidence that is the case? Depends, do you disagree with my statement ?
Phi for All Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I 'm all against forcing people to participate in pensions, however, if people would be free to participate in a pension-system, pensions would still be used by the majority of the people who participate now. I disagree with this as an assumption. Much depends on what happens to people in any society who don't have a way to support themselves when they retire. Will they be homeless and starve? If the society ensures this won't happen, then the society is paying for elder care anyway, and probably in a less efficient manner. I'm just not sure "the majority" would voluntarily use a pension system. It has the value of being a small amount taken AND dispersed over time. Anecdotally, I've found that many people freak out when suddenly faced with an extraordinary amount of money. Ask any insurance broker how many people get a $10,000 settlement to fix a roof damaged by a hailstorm, only to turn around and spend it on something else instead (woohoo, BOAT! : P), leaving them with no further insurance on the roof, possible leaks in the near future, and now they have to pay for it themselves if they want to fix it or sell it. I think a mandatory system has the best chance of being the most efficient way to handle a problem faced by the vast majority. You can't leave the last part of lives to chance. 1
swansont Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Which system? There are lots For example the pension scheme I am in is funded and run entirely by the government (I work for the government). There is no involvement from the stock market or from shares/ mutual funds or whatever. Same with me. All it is is deferred compensation, and incentive to work for the government for a period of time, instead of leaving and then the government having to train someone new. All i see is that you are irresponsible.You want samebody else to take care of you when you grew older.You do not have the courage to take care of your future. It's money owed to me from my work. How is this somebody else taking care of me? 1
dimreepr Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I think maybe the OP is thinking that many state pensions seem to be little more than a ponzi scheme.
Phi for All Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Or it's an attempt by a right wing corporation to get access to pension funds, by comparing them to the Devil and making people mistrust them. Spin doctoring against socialism and unions. Workers of the world, unite!
swansont Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I think maybe the OP is thinking that many state pensions seem to be little more than a ponzi scheme. That would be another reason to clarify which system is being discussed.
dimreepr Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) That certainly has happened here in the UK but our state pension is threatened by our determination to keep the 'so called' immigrants out. Edit/ cross posted with swansont. Edited August 31, 2015 by dimreepr
studiot Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Well the UK pension system is miles better than no pension system but IMHO it has long enabled the providers to live better than the pensioners, off their backs.
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