Phi for All Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 I know what people like this are thinking.Telepathy and other magic of this sort needs to be confined to the Pseudoscience sub-forum.I can certainly understand the interest in [child porn'], like a hetero man that may not buy hard core porn of women can still understand the interest other men have in it.I can appreciate this view. I'm personally put off by most hard-core porn. I feel it demeans both the viewer and the subject, besides leaving little to imagine. But I understand my opinion is not shared by most males. I can say that my experience is you always start wanting something a bit more aggressive. I don't know where that trend may lead if it could lead to abuse but I just don't care to have my career ruined and risk jail time because it led to pics that where illegal. I've seen enough problems Pedophiles have gotten themselves into because of porn and I don't want to risk it.I respect this. It is actually a logical fallacy known as Slippery Slope, suggesting that abuse that starts small will inevitably lead to bigger abuses, but I happen to believe that is human nature. It takes a very strong person to resist the temptation. I think we've identified some very important distinctions here. I know I still feel that children prior to puberty should not be led towards sexuality. It sounds like that view is supported by the pedophiles posting here. I understand that your views towards those individual children who show a tendency towards early sexual initiation are different. No one here seems to be advocating seduction of innocents. But are there ways that children who do show sexual interest before puberty can be channeled towards intelligent choices beyond their wisdom?
Coral Rhedd Posted April 23, 2005 Author Posted April 23, 2005 But are there ways that children who do show sexual interest before puberty can be channeled towards intelligent choices beyond their wisdom? Children show sexual curiosity at all ages. Curiosity and an interest in having sex are not the same thing. Unless someone goes to a great deal of trouble to educate (or groom) a 10 year old to believe that sex is something that should be actually engaged in' date=' most 10 year old are content with curiosity rather than sex. They have a "tell me" rather than a "show me" desire. They look to adult for guidance, not initiation. It is a fact that the U.S. Supreme Court recently outlawed the execution of juveniles based in part upon recent studies that indicate that the judgment of 16 year olds is nowhere near that of adults. Children can be persuaded to do a great many things, but that doesn't always mean that they are applying [b']judgment[/b].
Dak Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 It is a fact that the U.S. Supreme Court recently outlawed the execution of juveniles based... WHAT!?! you mean that juveniles were, untilll recently, given the death penalty in america?
Coral Rhedd Posted April 23, 2005 Author Posted April 23, 2005 WHAT!?! you mean that juveniles were, untilll recently, given the death penalty in america? Shocking as it may seem. However, when the Supreme Court recently outlawed this they took into consideration recent studies that indicate that young people may actually be led to commit crimes in a group because they lack the judgment that an adult has. I however, am opposed to executing anyone, even child molesters, although they cause enormous damage to their victims. We could parse crimes all night, saying that this one is worse than that one or some don't cause as much harm as others. The truth is that the law is imperfect and cannot be tailor made to individuals like a suit of clothes. We cannot say that we are going to allow exceptions to laws about child molestation just because some (few) people thought they were ready to have sex at nine and thus extrapolate from their own individual experience that most nine year olds are prepared to make such "decisions."
Dak Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 quite. i feel that i was ready for sex at 11, but i wouldnt have sex with an 11 year old even if i was so enclined. the risk of messing them up is too great.
Coral Rhedd Posted April 23, 2005 Author Posted April 23, 2005 quite. i feel that i was ready for sex at 11, but i wouldnt have sex with an 11 year old even if i was so enclined. the risk of messing them up is too great. What do you surmise it means that you can make that connection (that not everyone is measured by your own experience) and some others apparently cannot?
Merle Noir Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 But are there ways that children who do show sexual interest before puberty can be channeled towards intelligent choices beyond their wisdom? I don't necessarily believe that children will on their own show wisdom beyond their years. Children learn about sexuality just like they learn to walk and learn to talk. Some may learn faster other slower some may have better teachers others worse. Children are curious about sex its only natural they have a deep curiosity about everything. Sexuality is a part of everyone and just as a child learns about their body and their surrounding little by little they also learn about their sexuality step by step. Considering that many parents avoid any discussion with their child about sex until probably after the child is probably more knowledgeable then the parents think its easy for some children to innocently be more knowledgeable. For example a child whose parents openly talks about sex and when asked for explanations by their child give honest truthful explanations will have a child seemingly knowledgeable beyond their years then a child whose parents want to hide sex and sexuality from them till they are 18 in some hopes of preserving a myth of innocence. I am a little bit confused on the question especially what is meant by the phrase "channeled toward intelligent choices beyond their wisdom?" Do you mean can children be instructed so they will make choices that they might not be able to make due to lack of understanding. Certainly we do it all the time, any responsible parent does it more so with younger children but even teens. I'd fully recommend teaching your kids very early on to say no if someone tries to touch them in an inappropriate way or in an inappropriate place. (obviously with language a little less technical) I would warn against going over board its easy to terrorize a child thinking you need to over emphasize things. When I was an older teen and still rationalized that children wanted sex I was not only stopped from crossing that line but also woke up to my rationalization by a child that thankfully had been given just such instructions. We're still very good friends even though he's not a boy anymore. In fact at times I'm deeply touched by how close he seems to be. Just little things like him inviting me to go to a movie with him and his friends. When I say his friends probably don't want some old man tagging along he says thats their problem I'd like you to come along. As a pedophile to me thats a much bigger rush then sex can ever provide and something that is meaningful that will last beyond the moment. However keep in mind such guidance only goes so far. Once the child learns enough to begins to question that guidance they will start working out decisions on their own. So a responsible parent needs to follow up have an open honest discussion with the child and be close enough and aware enough that the child is questioning what they've been told. It's reasonable to think of a very young child will follow what a parent says but at some point they will learn enough to say I can do this on my own and if the parent is relying on simple yes, no instructions from several years earlier then they are deceiving themselves. Not sure if I answered your question or not but hopefully I went broad enough for you to find what you where looking for.
Bettina Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 If memory serves Bettina has some interesting* views on homosexuality too' date=' so possibly not the best example. * i.e. not really based on terribly practical things.[/quote'] This bothered me......could you please explain what posts brought you to this conclusion? Bettina
Bettina Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 how about this. what if you having any sexual activity with a boy your age was extremely frowned upon' date=' even illegal? what if it was considered so unacceptable you would be thrown in jail for doing it and at the very least, probably locked up in an institution if you were a repeat offender?[/quote'] First, I have that happening to me now. I often think what it would be like to be in bed with certain boys, but thats as far as it goes. I'm just not ready to commit to that while I'm still in school, and I know what my dad would think. So, there is the frowned upon part. If I was out of school, and in love, I would love him and have sex with him.....law or no law. Nothing would stop me. Thats the truth. Bettina
Bettina Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 Telepathy and other magic of this sort needs to be confined to the Pseudoscience sub-forum. There is no such thing as the Telepathy your describing. I don't believe in it. However, some things don't need much interpretation as a man and women in love staring at each other. Bettina
Merle Noir Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 Your asking me what I would do if I was a pedophile? The only logical answer to that question is.....I don't know. You will have to give me another scenario. Bettina Well there have been other questions but I think his original question is primarily a good one. Your right of course you don't know what you would do its too large of a leap and to many variables. But instead of answering what would you do I'd say can you empathies with what it might be like? Or maybe better is can you say what you would hope you would do if roles where reversed? What kind of decissions and attitudes might you hope you would make in such a situation? Then I'd add in can you go the next step further and re-read what you've written and applying it to this hypothetical you? Pedophiles are human just like you we have the same capacity to try to decide what is right and wrong. We have the same capacity to love and hate. We have the same capacity to do harm and good. I'm sure you must have some aspect in your life where you feel the actions or even opinions of others are unfairly applied to you because of some commonality. From reading your posts and others comments I am inclined to think you may be politically conservative. As a conservative I know I hate the assumptions of racism and homophobia (actually I like it cause it makes me laugh so as a homosexual pedophile) and closemendedness that many apply to me. Just as a Pedophile I hate the assumtions of being a child molester which is a much more serious charge.
ezekiel23 Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 If I was out of school' date=' and in love, I would love him and have sex with him.....law or no law. Nothing would stop me. Thats the truth.[/quote'] boyakasha
5614 Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 Thats why I won't engage in sex even when the opportunity has presented itself and yes it has presented itself. As an adult I know where things will lead even when the child may or may not, and I simply change the activity or excuse myself from the child's company or even just say no usually with an explanation as to why I can't. Like I've said my relationship with boys is purely that of a mentor, or a good friend[/b']. That's very good and comforting -- if all paedophiles were like that I think there would be a much smaller problem. boyakasha I don't quite know what you mean by that but two people of the same age having sex is 'normal' and moral and right. An older person forcing a much younger (under 12) into sex IS wrong as is an older person introducing love into the life of a child who hasn't undergone puberty and therefore love is not natural to them. I think there seem to be two kinds of paedophiles. 1) Stereotypical paedophile who has sex with children before they go through puberty, introduces love into the life of a child where it wouldn't normally be there, will approach a child (possibly intimidating or could scare the child, you know 'never talk to strangers' kind of thing) and they aren't safe to be allowed near any child and because it's just impossible to prevent people from being near any child pherhaps they should not be allowed into society. 2) A person who is attracted to younger children but know's the consequences of thier actions. They will NOT under any circumstances have sex with a child or be involved in any indecent incidents.. They will be friendly to a child but ONLY when the child comes to them first. They will NOT go up to a child they do not know for the child's sake. In that 2nd scenario they will only be seen as a person who likes children in a friendly way. I can't see much wrong with that. Those I believe are the two extremes. Obviously the majority would fall somewhere between that and I think each person would need to be analysed before you can decide whether they are potentially unsafe or not, although this would be hard to do.
Callipygous Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 First, I have that happening to me now. someone is going to lock you up if you have sex? everyone is going to think your a pervert who is a danger to society and shouldnt be allowed around other people? I often think what it would be like to be in bed with certain boys, but thats as far as it goes. I'm just not ready to commit to that while I'm still in school, and I know what my dad would think. So, there is the frowned upon part. If I was out of school, and in love, I would love him and have sex with him.....law or no law. Nothing would stop me. what would happen to a pedophile with that philosophy?
5614 Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 Oh come on! Bettina is a 17 year old girl... it's perfectly normal for someone of that age to want to have sex with someone else of that age (plus or minus a small few years). There are seldom few teenagers in the whole world who do not (if not openly, then secretly) share Bettina's view. It is not perverted for a young adult to have sex with another young adult. It is not perverted for an adult to have sex with another adult. Neither of those situations endanger anybody. When a paedophile has sex with a child that is perverted, it does endanger people and that paedophile is a danger to society (same applies if a paedophile has that philosophy). The reason for this is that sex of that age gap does not happen but far more importantly is that it is not natural for a child to have sex, it is not normal for a child to have sex, it is not moral or ethical... it is perverted especially emphasised when they are having sex with an adult (be it a young or old adult). I mean, surely everyone can see the difference between adult --> adult sex, young adult --> young adult sex and adult --> child sex (or young adult --> child sex).
Callipygous Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 Oh come on! Bettina is a 17 year old girl... it's perfectly normal for someone of that age to want to have sex with someone else of that age (plus or minus a small few years). There are seldom few teenagers in the whole world who do not (if not openly' date=' then secretly) share Bettina's view. It is not perverted for a young adult to have sex with another young adult. It is not perverted for an adult to have sex with another adult.[/quote'] THATS the entire point. its very hard to imagine what it would be like to be in that situation. its very hard to emphasize with someone who is in a position you have never, and will never be in. so were trying to change the situation around, and tailor it to someone in HER position to help imagine what its like.
Dak Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 bettina, the point i was trying to make is that its easy for us to say "wev never had sex with childeren", because we dont want to. iv never set fire to a building, but i dont think i deserve a medal for this for the simple reason that iv never wanted to burn a building down, iv never had that desire to resist. i have had the urge to sleep with people that i shouldnt... not childeren, but friends' girlfriends and other women when iv got a girlfriend, even a mates fiance on one occasion. i havent, but the temptation (and occasionally the option) was there. i didnt want it to be, it was really, really annoying, but at the end of the day it was still there dispite what i may wish, and i feel the fact that i resisted is more relevent than the fact that i had the urges in the first place. which i find relatively easy to analogise with paedophillia. iv also tried (and failed) many times to give up smoking (nicotine is more addictive than heroin, by the way), and so im well aware of the ways in which your subconsiouse can lie to you to get you to do what it wants -- 'todays not a good day to give up', 'ill just carry a pouch of tobaco around with me incase one of my mates wants a fag and doesnt have any', 'just one last ciggarette' and, presumably, 'well this child seems ready to have sex' and 'if the child wants sex then its ok' (actually, the 'shed learn sooner or later, and its better for her to learn from someone who cares about her and will make sure shes ok, rather than someone whos just interested in themselves and might not wear a condom' is a common justification used by insestuaose paedophiles) in fact, with reguards to my friends fiances, i have experiensed the 'subconsiouse lying to you to get its way' phenomena, even considering the philosophy that something is 'not immoral if noone finds out about it*' before realising what i was considering and mentally shaking myself. (*= I dont actually believe this by the way, but i did find myself entertaining it in an attempt to justify sleeping with my friends girlfriend - when i (consiousely) realised, i threw the thought out of my mind, but the fact it got there in the first place...) my point is that noone, not me or you or the paedophiles here could claim to simply be able to turn our sex drive off when its convinient, nor to chose our sexuality. some people are paedophiles. its not their choice, they just are. and as far as im conserned, the ones who resist deserve respect -- the sex drive is possibly the strongest drive in the human psyce, and thus the hardest to ignoor. its pretty obviouse that, being attracted to childeren, theyd entertain the possibility that it would be justified and have actually brought up some valid points. anyway, in summary: if someone is attracted to childeren and denies themselves the pleasure dispite the fact that there must be quite alot of pressure on them to fulfil their sex drive, then i think that is in fact the polar opposite of the definition of a monster. quite. i feel that i was ready for sex at 11' date=' but i wouldnt have sex with an 11 year old even if i was so enclined. the risk of messing them up is too great.[/quote']What do you surmise it means that you can make that connection (that not everyone is measured by your own experience) and some others apparently cannot? i dunno? id include the default acnowledment that i could be wrong, but would lean in favour of an explination along the lines of 'i dont have my sex drive attempting to hijack my thought prosesses' (same as the way a non-smoker can easaly see the error in the statement 'ill give up tomorrow' whereas i, with my nicotine-drive subverted thought prosess, think that giving up tomorrow is actually a good idea that will actually result in my giving up smoking)
Dak Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 It is not perverted for a young adult to have sex with another young adult. what about an adult and a young adult, eg 35 year old and 17 year old? And adult > child sex is perverted? that's just an opinion. that can be backed up with logic and evidence. were never going to find a stone plaqu with a message written by the hand of god saying 'people are only ready for sex when they reach the age of 17 years' date=' 5 months and 3 days' so wheter its ok or not to have sex with someone of a given age is [i']always[/i] going to be an oppinion, or an interpretation of the facts. the fact that its 'just' an oppinion doesnt detract from its validity or, by itself, from its accuracy/truithfulness
MulderMan Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 if the young adult feels mature enough to have sex with the adult then i dont think it is perverted. and most people of that age arnet. i personally classify peadophillia as a sexual preference, just like hetrosexuality and homosexuality. and just like the definition of the latter two, it is defined as an attraction. there is a line between peadophillia and child sex IMO.
5614 Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 THATS the entire point. its very hard to imagine what it would be like to be in that situation. its very hard to emphasize with someone who is in a position you have never, and will never be in. so were trying to change the situation around, and tailor it to someone in HER position to help imagine what its like. But can you not see the difference between Bettina, a 17 year old, having sex with a boy her age and a grown adult having sex with someone who hasnt undergone puberty (putting them in approx under 12 age range)? I was just expressing Ali-G style glee at the fact that even though Bettina seems to think we should all unconditionally be thrown in jail (or something like that) she has as good as admitted that in the same situation she would act just the same as those people she says that about. I knew she could then come in with the 'but it's OK!! it's with older people!' thing, but that's not the point. (Read the bit above your quote - it's not quite the same thing and it is the point!) I think, I may be wrong in saying, that when Bettina said about the jail thing she was basing it on the slightly more stereotypical paedophile -- read post #288 where I mentioned about what I think is the two types of paedophiles. I don't think Bettina would want everyone who likes children in jail esp. if they wouldn't act on it, no one can really help what they think (with in reason) it's our actions which make us who we are. And adult > child sex is perverted? that's just an opinion. What is right and what is wrong -- it's all opinion, but adult --> child sex is generally viewed as, well maybe perverted is technically the wrong word, but 'wrong' would be a bit better. what about an adult and a young adult, eg 35 year old and 17 year old? As long as both people want to then it's fine, if one is forced into it it's rape... but assuming both parties are happy they are legally allowed to and they are both over the age puberty so why not. I just don't like the idea of a child who has not gone through puberty who would not have, or think of, or probably even know about sex to have it with an adult.
Dak Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 I don't think Bettina would want everyone who likes children in jail esp. if they wouldn't act on it, no one can really help what they think (with in reason) it's our actions which make us who we are. i believe that is what shes saying
MulderMan Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 ive been sensing that aswell as ive been following this thread.
Bettina Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 i have had the urge to sleep with people that i shouldnt... not childeren) I think those are considered normal human traits. Bettina
5614 Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 I think those are considered normal human traits. Bettina Obviously so... it's the whole adult/child boundary which seems to the be the problem here.
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