Dak Posted May 6, 2005 Posted May 6, 2005 Group one consists of pedophiles who have not posted here. They are those who know what they are' date=' are morally ashamed, and keep it in complete control. He will live out his entire life without anyone being the wiser. He does not engage in any private or open display of sexual affection of a child. He could, for example be my father, and I would never have known and I don't consider this pedophile a threat to anyone and he should be both respected and commended. The second type is the one who is content acting out his fantasies in the privacy of his bathroom while looking at kids in underwear from a JC Penney book and most likely will have photos of children in his home. He also knows what he is, and does not want to act out his fantasies in real life for fear of getting caught and having his name in the paper, but also does not want to hurt anyone. A pedophile with a soul perhaps. He is also not a threat. The third type is the one who plays kissing games with his nieces or nephews. He interacts with kids from his daughters or sons slumber or birthday parties. He will befriend kids in his neighborhood, hosting parties, etc. If he can, he will have kids on his lap, rubbing and caressing. He will try to get a cheap feel now and then and will seem very loving and likes being with children. Touching children is good enough to satisfy his desires but he is very much a threat. The last type is the one who wants to have consensual sex with a little kid. He goes as far as trying to find groups of young kids who have similar interests and you will hear them arguing that the Aoc laws are too strict and strive for a world where 8 year olds are legal. They argue that the Aoc laws are unfair to teens, but in reality are thinking of themselves and themselves alone. Since when is a pedophile worried that the Aoc laws are unfair for teenagers. Teens have been having sex since the dawn of time. We can do it safely and secretly too. Parents aren't smart enough to catch us, so please save your "Aoc laws are unfair to teens" speeches. We don't need you. The only reason you want them changed is to benefit you....the middle aged adult.[/quote'] you forgot group 5: the ones who rape kids.
Coral Rhedd Posted May 6, 2005 Author Posted May 6, 2005 This is my closing statement for this thread. The question posed by the opening thread' date=' was "What is a pedophile" and since then, a bunch of different opinions have surfaced to try to convince us that the medical definition is not really acceptable and that they are simply "boy/girl lovers" who are harmless and much different than the stigmatized version. Don't you believe it. I may have come a long way in understanding the pedophile than when I first posted in this thread, but understanding and accepting are two different things. The [i'] intent [/i] of the pedophile is still correct which I can break down in four groups, three of which have posted in this thread. Group one consists of pedophiles who have not posted here. They are those who know what they are, are morally ashamed, and keep it in complete control. He will live out his entire life without anyone being the wiser. He does not engage in any private or open display of sexual affection of a child. He could, for example be my father, and I would never have known and I don't consider this pedophile a threat to anyone and he should be both respected and commended. The second type is the one who is content acting out his fantasies in the privacy of his bathroom while looking at kids in underwear from a JC Penney book and most likely will have photos of children in his home. He also knows what he is, and does not want to act out his fantasies in real life for fear of getting caught and having his name in the paper, but also does not want to hurt anyone. A pedophile with a soul perhaps. He is also not a threat. The third type is the one who plays kissing games with his nieces or nephews. He interacts with kids from his daughters or sons slumber or birthday parties. He will befriend kids in his neighborhood, hosting parties, etc. If he can, he will have kids on his lap, rubbing and caressing. He will try to get a cheap feel now and then and will seem very loving and likes being with children. Touching children is good enough to satisfy his desires but he is very much a threat. The last type is the one who wants to have consensual sex with a little kid. He goes as far as trying to find groups of young kids who have similar interests and you will hear them arguing that the Aoc laws are too strict and strive for a world where 8 year olds are legal. They argue that the Aoc laws are unfair to teens, but in reality are thinking of themselves and themselves alone. Since when is a pedophile worried that the Aoc laws are unfair for teenagers. Teens have been having sex since the dawn of time. We can do it safely and secretly too. Parents aren't smart enough to catch us, so please save your "Aoc laws are unfair to teens" speeches. We don't need you. The only reason you want them changed is to benefit you....the middle aged adult. What about teen pedophiles? I don't know, but to me a 13 year old who fondles a 4 year old needs serious help....not jail. When I speak of a pedophile, I'm speaking of a grown man or women. An adult pedophile who should go to jail if caught. While I write this, I can place myself in the body of a 7year old child . I am sitting on the lap of a person I trust and like very much. He may be my favorite uncle. He buys me gifts, and tells me that I'm his favorite girl of all time and that he loves me very much. I can feel his hands rubbing my legs as he kisses me on my neck. He is loving and tender, and as I lay there on his lap, his hand edges up my thigh so I take his hand and place it between my legs and he allows me to do this. I am experimenting and he is taking advantage of that fact.I like what he is doing and it feels good. What I don't realize is that I'm in the hands of a pedophile child molester and I am being molested. I don't know what molesting is because I've never heard the word before and I don't realize the implications. All I do know is that it feels good and he isn't hurting me. I don't realize yet that he's robbing me of my normal childhood memories. The pedophile will post his thoughts trying to convince people that this is the modern age, and sexuality begins at birth. He will try to convince you that its acceptable in these modern times for adults to have sex with a child. He will try to make you think its both healthy and helpful for the child to learn sex from an adult first. I've heard this called "breaking her in". He will go on to mention that in bongo bongo, they do this "breaking in" all the time without any lasting affects being noticed on the child. He will come here and say that it happened to him personally at 3,4, or 7 years old and they enjoyed it so it should be good for the rest of the kids. He will tell you sometimes that the 8 year old "knew what she was doing" when she snuggled up and touched the 35 year old adult. That it was she or he that initiated the sex act. I even heard pedophile priests make that claim. He will also post sites that agree with his convictions as proof that this is acceptable. The list of excuses that pedophiles have to support there lust for little kids are endless. So, the answer to the original question is always the same. The pedophile is a person who has recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children age 13 years or.... as posted here..... as low as 7 years old. Some, will keep it buried, but some will act it out and like I said, I understand the pedophile now and I do sincerely empathize with them, but my first instinct is to protect the little kids, and I for one, will never accept the practicing pedophile as anything less than what they really are....Child molesters. To all you parents who have children, keep those Aoc laws where they are, watch your children at the playgrounds, keep telling them the difference between right and wrong and where they should not be touched, tell them to scream out loud and kick if they are ever grabbed, never to get talked into going anywhere with strangers, and don't let the scorpions convince you that they mean no harm.......its what they do. Bettina Bettina, This is the best post in this entire thread. As much as admire Dak and his logic, Callipygous' passionate defense of children, and Reverse's good sense, from my experience as a child avocate, you got it right. Studies and statistics won't tell us everything. They won't tell us how children feel about the secrets they keep. You got it exactly right.
merico Posted May 6, 2005 Posted May 6, 2005 This is my closing statement for this thread. The question posed by the opening thread' date=' was "What is a pedophile" and since then, a bunch of different opinions have surfaced to try to convince us that the medical definition is not really acceptable and that they are simply "boy/girl lovers" who are harmless and much different than the stigmatized version. Don't you believe it. I may have come a long way in understanding the pedophile than when I first posted in this thread, but understanding and accepting are two different things. The [i'] intent [/i] of the pedophile is still correct which I can break down in four groups, three of which have posted in this thread. Group one consists of pedophiles who have not posted here. They are those who know what they are, are morally ashamed, and keep it in complete control. He will live out his entire life without anyone being the wiser. He does not engage in any private or open display of sexual affection of a child. He could, for example be my father, and I would never have known and I don't consider this pedophile a threat to anyone and he should be both respected and commended. The second type is the one who is content acting out his fantasies in the privacy of his bathroom while looking at kids in underwear from a JC Penney book and most likely will have photos of children in his home. He also knows what he is, and does not want to act out his fantasies in real life for fear of getting caught and having his name in the paper, but also does not want to hurt anyone. A pedophile with a soul perhaps. He is also not a threat. The third type is the one who plays kissing games with his nieces or nephews. He interacts with kids from his daughters or sons slumber or birthday parties. He will befriend kids in his neighborhood, hosting parties, etc. If he can, he will have kids on his lap, rubbing and caressing. He will try to get a cheap feel now and then and will seem very loving and likes being with children. Touching children is good enough to satisfy his desires but he is very much a threat. The last type is the one who wants to have consensual sex with a little kid. He goes as far as trying to find groups of young kids who have similar interests and you will hear them arguing that the Aoc laws are too strict and strive for a world where 8 year olds are legal. They argue that the Aoc laws are unfair to teens, but in reality are thinking of themselves and themselves alone. Since when is a pedophile worried that the Aoc laws are unfair for teenagers. Teens have been having sex since the dawn of time. We can do it safely and secretly too. Parents aren't smart enough to catch us, so please save your "Aoc laws are unfair to teens" speeches. We don't need you. The only reason you want them changed is to benefit you....the middle aged adult. What about teen pedophiles? I don't know, but to me a 13 year old who fondles a 4 year old needs serious help....not jail. When I speak of a pedophile, I'm speaking of a grown man or women. An adult pedophile who should go to jail if caught. While I write this, I can place myself in the body of a 7year old child . I am sitting on the lap of a person I trust and like very much. He may be my favorite uncle. He buys me gifts, and tells me that I'm his favorite girl of all time and that he loves me very much. I can feel his hands rubbing my legs as he kisses me on my neck. He is loving and tender, and as I lay there on his lap, his hand edges up my thigh so I take his hand and place it between my legs and he allows me to do this. I am experimenting and he is taking advantage of that fact.I like what he is doing and it feels good. What I don't realize is that I'm in the hands of a pedophile child molester and I am being molested. I don't know what molesting is because I've never heard the word before and I don't realize the implications. All I do know is that it feels good and he isn't hurting me. I don't realize yet that he's robbing me of my normal childhood memories. The pedophile will post his thoughts trying to convince people that this is the modern age, and sexuality begins at birth. He will try to convince you that its acceptable in these modern times for adults to have sex with a child. He will try to make you think its both healthy and helpful for the child to learn sex from an adult first. I've heard this called "breaking her in". He will go on to mention that in bongo bongo, they do this "breaking in" all the time without any lasting affects being noticed on the child. He will come here and say that it happened to him personally at 3,4, or 7 years old and they enjoyed it so it should be good for the rest of the kids. He will tell you sometimes that the 8 year old "knew what she was doing" when she snuggled up and touched the 35 year old adult. That it was she or he that initiated the sex act. I even heard pedophile priests make that claim. He will also post sites that agree with his convictions as proof that this is acceptable. The list of excuses that pedophiles have to support there lust for little kids are endless. So, the answer to the original question is always the same. The pedophile is a person who has recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children age 13 years or.... as posted here..... as low as 7 years old. Some, will keep it buried, but some will act it out and like I said, I understand the pedophile now and I do sincerely empathize with them, but my first instinct is to protect the little kids, and I for one, will never accept the practicing pedophile as anything less than what they really are....Child molesters. To all you parents who have children, keep those Aoc laws where they are, watch your children at the playgrounds, keep telling them the difference between right and wrong and where they should not be touched, tell them to scream out loud and kick if they are ever grabbed, never to get talked into going anywhere with strangers, and don't let the scorpions convince you that they mean no harm.......its what they do. Bettina except for a few very small things wrong with that in my opinion, i think that has been ur best post on this thread so far and shows u have some understanding and is up there with the best few from this thread IMO. Hope i helped u to understand that were not all monsters (beast's) out to hurt children. this is the fourth time i came back to this thread today lol, think i have to much free time, and im interest in how this all ends lol. Merico
pariah Posted May 6, 2005 Posted May 6, 2005 question: were you molested? you seem pretty strong in your beliefs. if you were not,then where does this conviction come from? accepting others ideas without first hand experience is kinda like peer pressure isnt it? if you were molested,then im sorry for you. if not,stop acting like you are an authority. "Since when is a pedophile worried that the Aoc laws are unfair for teenagers. Teens have been having sex since the dawn of time. We can do it safely and secretly too. Parents aren't smart enough to catch us, so please save your "Aoc laws are unfair to teens" speeches. We don't need you. The only reason you want them changed is to benefit you....the middle aged adult." how arrogant! pedos think the AOC laws as they currently stand are unfair to all. we need laws to protect kids,yes,but the current laws are bunk. its the AOC laws and peoples fear and ignorance about sex that force you to sneak around and keep secrets from your parents!(POINT!) pedos want the laws changed to benefit kids first(look up youth liberation movements). this includes other laws like working,owning property,and voting as well as sex. some kids are not ready for these things,but others are. again,when i say kid,im not refering to a 4yr old. furthermore,our nation has gotten so hysterical that they are putting kids in jail now for having sex,even when the kids are teens and close to the same age. after all,if you are a horny 14 year old and you have sex with a 13 year old girl,it must mean someone molested you,right? hormones and an oversexualized society dont have anything to do with it. you are a victim,and you are raping the 13 yr old girl and making her into a victim. now you both need lots of expensive therapy so you can be a nice little "survivor" and come to realize how wrong your actions were... its obvious you have been well trained. i equate hostility with fear. change is scary. change is also inevitable... pariah---who is kicking himself for being baited back again. lol
Phi for All Posted May 6, 2005 Posted May 6, 2005 I can't help but think that lowering the AoC helps only those few young people who begin their sexually active phase earlier than most. It also seems as if pedophiles are looking for those very children. I can respect that pedophiles are not out there cruising for just any child, but I can't justify allowing even those children who may be more mature in their sexual outlook to be mentored by a pedophile. I can see where these early bloomers might resent a puritanical approach to sex, but we don't need necessarily to tip the scales even further by having a mentor who is sexually attracted to the child.
Coral Rhedd Posted May 6, 2005 Author Posted May 6, 2005 question: were you molested? you seem pretty strong in your beliefs. if you were not' date='then where does this conviction come from? accepting others ideas without first hand experience is kinda like peer pressure isnt it? if you were molested,then im sorry for you. if not,stop acting like you are an authority. "Since when is a pedophile worried that the Aoc laws are unfair for teenagers. Teens have been having sex since the dawn of time. We can do it safely and secretly too. Parents aren't smart enough to catch us, so please save your "Aoc laws are unfair to teens" speeches. We don't need you. The only reason you want them changed is to benefit you....the middle aged adult." how arrogant! pedos think the AOC laws as they currently stand are unfair to all. we need laws to protect kids,yes,but the current laws are bunk. its the AOC laws and peoples fear and ignorance about sex that force you to sneak around and keep secrets from your parents!(POINT!) pedos want the laws changed to benefit kids first(look up youth liberation movements). this includes other laws like working,owning property,and voting as well as sex. some kids are not ready for these things,but others are. again,when i say kid,im not refering to a 4yr old. furthermore,our nation has gotten so hysterical that they are putting kids in jail now for having sex,even when the kids are teens and close to the same age. after all,if you are a horny 14 year old and you have sex with a 13 year old girl,it must mean someone molested you,right? hormones and an oversexualized society dont have anything to do with it. you are a victim,and you are raping the 13 yr old girl and making her into a victim. now you both need lots of expensive therapy so you can be a nice little "survivor" and come to realize how wrong your actions were... its obvious you have been well trained. i equate hostility with fear. change is scary. change is also inevitable... pariah---who is kicking himself for being baited back again. lol[/quote'] I don't know where you live, but in my state, fourteen year olds are not going to jail for having sex with thirteen year olds -- although they sometimes get grounded. Sixteen year olds do get remanded to treatment for coercing sex from twelve year olds. This all sounds reasonable to me. What people seem to be overlooking is that these cases come to the attention of adults and authorities because children tell. They tell because they want it to stop. However they sometimes get upset because they could not forsee all the consequences or telling -- just like they cannot forsee all the consequences of sexual activity. Here is what I know about teenaged girls from having been a mother, a Girl Scout leader, and a Religious Education Director: Your average 13-14 year old girl want to be seen as beautiful and devastatingly sexy. They want what they see in the movies. They are often absolutely loopy about slightly older boys: High school football heros, that cute nineteen year old on TV, the lastest boy group with clean cut looks and high pitched love songs. I have eavesdropped on many slumber parties and I never heard a single girl says she yearned for some guy in his thirties. To them, those guys are old. Their natural sexual inclination is for guys from 12-20. They giggle, the priss, they put on too much makeup, but this is the role play of innocence most often. It is this innocence that active pedophiles find attractive. It is this innocence that they wish to defile. Once a girl is really old enough to realize her own sexuality and the power she has over men, she will not appeal to most pedophiles. She is a woman then. If she becomes this woman prematurely -- it is because someone made a concerted effort to make her one, often to her detriment.
Callipygous Posted May 6, 2005 Posted May 6, 2005 im not sure what the difference in time is between america and the uk, so im not sure when midnight friday actually is*, so i just want to say before this thread gets closed: thank you all for coming and posting on this site. its been very informative and, whilst i dont think that anyone has changed their stance on underaged sex, its given us alot of food for thought. this brings up an interesting thought (which is gonna be the last one i contribute). there have been several references to scientific studies throughout this thread, and you bring up the fact that probably no one in this thread has changed their stance. doesnt this show that it isnt really a scientific, logical opinion, but really an emotional one? it seems like this is very similar to religion. no matter how many logical arguments you make for the existance of god i will never believe you. i just dont agree. no matter how many good arguments you make against the existance of god your probably not converting any christians. while i like to think my thoughts on this are based solely on psychological studies that show that children are harmed by such contact, from this thread it seems like its really more of an emotional reaction on both sides. thanks to everyone who participated in this thread, especially the pedophiles, that takes guts.
GreenDestiny Posted May 6, 2005 Posted May 6, 2005 im not sure what the difference in time is between america and the uk' date=' so im not sure when midnight friday actually is*, so i just want to say before this thread gets closed: thank you all for coming and posting on this site. its been very informative and, whilst i dont think that anyone has changed their stance on underaged sex, its given us alot of food for thought. personally, i was not aware that in many cases of consentual pre-AoC sex that labeling the youth as a victim can do more damage than the actuall sex act itself.[/quote'] Thanks, Dak, nice posting. I also found your posting concerning the studies that have been done interesting. At least it shows that one cannot look at the issue from one perspective only. Sex involving minors has many facets and aspects, so one can't only make general statements about it. Bettina's last posting showed that she seems to have gotten a slightly different view about pedophilia, but still I think that putting everyone into one of four categories is a bit too simple. I don't think all people are really like that and generally asserting that everybody, who criticizes that AoC laws can also illegalize some teen-teen relationships, is actually only thinking about himself is a bit of an exaggeration and imputation. As well as asserting that all pedophiles discussing these laws are "scorpions". That view is still a bit biased and one-dimensional IMO. But to be fair, pedophiles sometimes also tend to be a bit one-sided in such discussions. As Callipygous pointed out, it is sometimes not that easy to be really objective, but nevertheless I think that it is at least partially possible. When discussing topics like this one should IMHO try not to get too overly emotional and rather stay with the facts. In fact I myself am not 100% sure how the laws should exactly be. Dak for instance has also raised some intersting points in favor of AoC laws. Still though, compared to how discussions about this topic often end up (flame wars and the like), I think this one has been rather nice. I don't think it's completely like a religious question. Of course it's not the case that all people agree at the end, but where do you find that in real life? People with very different views have stated their opinions and some have gathered some new perspectives. People have also seen that pedophiles are not really the monsters they are often portrayed as and that there is a lot of room for improvement in the way how society treats them. There have been a lot of arguments pro and con sex involving minors. An interesting thread all in all.
Bettina Posted May 6, 2005 Posted May 6, 2005 question: were you molested? you seem pretty strong in your beliefs. if you were not' date='then where does this conviction come from? accepting others ideas without first hand experience is kinda like peer pressure isnt it? if you were molested,then im sorry for you. if not,stop acting like you are an authority. "Since when is a pedophile worried that the Aoc laws are unfair for teenagers. Teens have been having sex since the dawn of time. We can do it safely and secretly too. Parents aren't smart enough to catch us, so please save your "Aoc laws are unfair to teens" speeches. We don't need you. The only reason you want them changed is to benefit you....the middle aged adult." how arrogant! pedos think the AOC laws as they currently stand are unfair to all. we need laws to protect kids,yes,but the current laws are bunk. its the AOC laws and peoples fear and ignorance about sex that force you to sneak around and keep secrets from your parents!(POINT!) pedos want the laws changed to benefit kids first(look up youth liberation movements). this includes other laws like working,owning property,and voting as well as sex. some kids are not ready for these things,but others are. again,when i say kid,im not refering to a 4yr old. furthermore,our nation has gotten so hysterical that they are putting kids in jail now for having sex,even when the kids are teens and close to the same age. after all,if you are a horny 14 year old and you have sex with a 13 year old girl,it must mean someone molested you,right? hormones and an oversexualized society dont have anything to do with it. you are a victim,and you are raping the 13 yr old girl and making her into a victim. now you both need lots of expensive therapy so you can be a nice little "survivor" and come to realize how wrong your actions were... its obvious you have been well trained. i equate hostility with fear. change is scary. change is also inevitable... pariah---who is kicking himself for being baited back again. lol[/quote'] Since you asked me a direct question, I feel obliged to answer. Thanks for calling me arrogant Since in other threads you have called people hypocrites, racists, dumb, stupid, irrational, misinformed, and a host of other names too, I feel like one of the gang now. Anyway, No, no pedophile molested me. You ask where do my convictions come from? How about the pedophile priests that have abused countless children who are starting to come out and those that are still too ashamed to. How about the last four girls killed were done by child lovers, pedophiles, child molesters or whatever their calling themselves now. How about the security cameras in malls that have caught pedophiles feeling kids. Tell me how to spot a "good" pedophile please so I won't have to worry. And as for your comment "its obvious you have been well trained" I want to say thanks again. Yes, I've been well trained. Its called "moral upbringing" and I thank my dad for teaching me right from wrong that I carry with me every day. Also, your correct about our nation becoming hysterical. But thats because they see little kids stolen from their bedrooms, malls, and front porches that make them this way. And Hostility? Honestly, look in the mirror......and forget about the change you are looking for. It will never happen as long as there are moms and dads that care. And Choral.....Your compliment meant a very great deal to me. Thank you very much. Bettina
GreenDestiny Posted May 6, 2005 Posted May 6, 2005 Also' date=' your correct about our nation becoming hysterical. But thats because they see little kids stolen from their bedrooms, malls, and front porches that make them this way. [/quote'] Yep, and although cases of child kidnapping and murder have rather been decreasing than increasing during the last decades the media creates some kind of hysteria today as if this had become a rising danger lately. Actually the chance of this happening is rather low and I think that other dangers are currently far more real for children, e.g. non-sexual violence from the parents or simple neglect. Of course those are not as "spectacular"...
Baldur Posted May 15, 2005 Posted May 15, 2005 My apologies that I did not get back to this discussion earlier when it was re-opened. It may surprise you to know that I don't track the goings-on at Science Forums daily. In fact, it would be more accurate to say I follow this forum weakly than weekly. I would like to briefly address a few issues that have come up, and also give some sources. There are far more sources out there for those willing to find them, but (1) it is hard to remember where I found everything, and (2) I wouldn't want to overload you anyhow. == I found Dak's description of the Rind Report to be pretty much on target. It is true that this study found that a significant number of girls had negative short-term effects from willing sexual encounters as children. It should be noted, however, that a significant number also reported short-term (and long-term) positive effects. It would be premature to attribute causes for the difference between girls and boys in this matter, but two possible reasons that leap to mind are (1) a negative cultural attitude towards female sexuality; and (2) the physical pain frequently accompanying a female's first sexual intercourse. I submit these speculations in case budding researchers want to test them as hypotheses. Of course, the cause could be quite different, and if so we should find out. There is certainly a lot of research that needs to be done. I for one believe that the research SHOULD be done, rather than condemn the research that has already been done - as the U.S. Congress condemned Rind et al. == Regarding Dak's questions about coercion: I am not so sure that minors are easier to coerce than adults. Certainly coercion is an issue, and I don't have a problem with laws that prohibit sexual relationships between children and their parents, or with teachers, clergy, or others whom the child is taught to obey as authority figures. That said, such laws ought only to apply to cases where the adult IS an authority figure, not cases where the adult WAS an authority figure, but is no longer. As one example, Mary Kay LeTourneau's relationship with Vili Fualaau was with a FORMER student, when she was obviously NOT an authority figure to him. Also, the law should be flexible enough to recognize that "Yes" means "Yes", and if a child is not disturbed by the relationship, the law should not be too eager to seek harsh punishment. Dak's comments got me thinking about adults being coerced. Much is similar - authority figures may be coercive, sometimes without even trying. I am thinking of two scenarios: (1) a boss "asking" if you can work on Saturday. Depending on how secure one feels in their job, this could be coercive, even when it is not the intent. (2) at a traffic stop, a police office "asking" if he can search the vehicle - even when there is no probable cause. Many adults will consent to the search because they fear that if they don't, the officer will keep them in mind and harass them in the future. (And this fear is quite valid.) Certainly this concern about children being coerced is valid in many cases. However, it is also certainly NOT valid in many cases. I have personally seen many accounts of children seeking out sexual relations with adults, and it is difficult to see how they have been coerced. While no children have explicitly asked me for sex, several have approached me wanting other forms of physical affection. I believe there is room in the law to account for all this. The Dutch have a law which allows minors to bring a complaint to the police if they believe they were coerced, but does not allow relationships to be prosecuted without the consent of the minor (12 and up) or their parents. In addition to this, the law should differentiate between unintended coercion, intended coercion, and forcible rape. The fact that the law does not already make such distinctions is a great tragedy - to say nothing for the fact that it also makes no distinction between the above and a mutually desired relationship. These differences are important for two reasons: (1) because the harm done (if any) differs, and (2) because in cases of harm done, the chance of reoffending differs greatly. (A person who is unintentionally coercive needs little more than to be informed of the fact to correct the problem.) In another post you asked me to define rape and abuse: Rape consists of sexual relations with an unwilling partner (forcible rape consists of rape where force or threat of force was involved). Abuse consists of actions harmful to a person, especially an unconsenting person, and can be mental, verbal, or physical. In the case of children, neglect can be considered as very similar to abuse, if not technically the same. == Klanger noted a forum where people who were sexually abused as children talk about it. He noted that he couldn't find any forums where people who enjoyed sexual relationships as children talk about it. There is a good reason for this: In some jurisdictions, such forums would be illegal. In other jurisdictions, they would not be illegal, but would be so controversial that they would be under constant attack, by the police and others. Then there is the whole question of cultural stigma. It's no wonder that there aren't many forums which host such discussions. However, I will note that http://www.logicalreality.com/ has had such discussions on their forums. This site also proves my point. Despite being entirely legal, the site is often attacked and is frequently down. - This article is mostly analysis, but has some brief quotes from gay men who had positive experiences with men when they were boys: http://www.p-loog.info/English/rind_gay_boys_frame.htm - These articles are about the relationship between three boys and a boylover. Despite the fact that this particular boylover was not entirely ethical, the three boys (all of whom now identify themselves as heterosexual men) still defend their relationship, and indeed continue their relationship as friends. http://www.p-loog.info/English/interview_3_b/interview.htm http://www.p-loog.info/English/interview_3_b/johnny.htm http://www.p-loog.info/English/interview_3_b/peter.htm http://www.p-loog.info/English/interview_3_b/stephan.htm - A girl who was 14 at the time she had sex with an older man, is waiting for him to get out of jail (for "raping" her) so she can marry him. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2777533.stm - You will easily be able to find more information about Mary Kay LeTourneau and Vili Fualaau. - Again, mostly analysis. http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/nelson.htm - I am unable to find the source now, but I recall one informal Dutch study where the researcher put out an ad for positive and negative accounts, and every response but one was positive. Most respondents (male AND female) did not grow up to be pedophiles, and held that their own experience was positive but said they understood that it probably wouldn't be for other children. == Some historical perspective. From Plato's "Symposium". Read the whole thing for some surprises. Plato discussed much the same things we have been discussing here. "In countries which are subject to the barbarians, the custom is held to be dishonourable; loves of youths share the evil repute in which philosophy and gymnastics are held because they are inimical to tyranny; for the interests of rulers require that their subjects should be poor in spirit and that there should be no strong bond of friendship or society among them, which love, above all other motives, is likely to inspire." == There are a number of online books about child sexuality and/or pedophilia at: http://www.ipce.info/booksreborn/ Note Albert Moll's "The Sexual Life of the Child" (1912) - knowledge of childhood sexuality may have improved (at least among experts), but it is not new. I also recall one or more of Floyd Martinson's books being interesting, as well as Alayne Yates' "Sex Without Shame". also: http://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/nelson.htm == As for the subject of adults who feel that sexual repression in childhood was harmful to them - there are too many to count. I know many people both on and off-line who feel this way, pedophile and teleiophile. Of course, most were brought up in a conservative church, such as the Catholic or Southern protestant types. I don't have any formal resources at hand, but I'm sure that anyone interested can easily find many such accounts. == For Bettina: Apparently you have also been misinformed about scorpions. To wit: "Unless molested, scorpions are perfectly harmless, and only make use of the sting for the purpose of killing prey." Furthermore, "Scorpion venoms are geared towards activity in other arthropods and therefore most scorpions are relatively harmless to humans." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion http://www.desertusa.com/oct96/du_scorpion.html You may also be surprised to learn that scorpions give birth to live young, and some species are social. Apparently you just can't trust fables and old wives' tales. == As my last post in this thread, I would like to thank everyone who participated with an open mind. I know that it is very hard for some of you to consider these ideas. It was difficult for me to consider them, but I have had many years to do so. I would also like to thank the folks at Science Forums who have allowed this discussion to take place, and who briefly reopened this thread so that I could post a final response with sources. I will try to check back in here once in a while, so if there are any budding researchers, formal or otherwise, who would like to contact me for any reason, please PM me. Baldur
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