Destiny

[bcamargo0296]

I'm going to ramble a lot here, so don't be afraid to call me stupid. Also, I have a hard time explaining this, but I'll do my best.

 

So, I believe that destiny can be proven by the fact that everything depends on the first initial event that created the universe (Big Bang, God, or whatever).

 

For example, let's say you kick a ball and it smashes a vase. Since that first initial event (kicking the ball), due to the strenght that you used to kick it and the way you did it, it was destined to hit that vase, and that's it. It is what it is.

 

Now, thinking bigger. Assuming the Big Bang is true (which doesn't necessarily has to be), didn't its initial event (the cosmic explosion) shaped it all? It made all matter be arranged the way it is now. Even my brain, which makes up for my consciousness, is just matter. The matter that composes my brain, the world and everything else in the universe, is arranged the way it is now because of that first cosmic explosion that created the universe.

 

If I'm not just being stupid and this actually makes sense, even though we are more complex beings. Sense of control or choice is an illusion. You make your choices based on the person you are, but how can you have control over your choices if you don't have control over all the other things that made you turn you into the person you are now?

 

Small example, let's say your parents teached you to like Rock 'n' Roll when you were a kid. You grew up and one day, you chose to go to some rock band's concert. Now, while this is, technically, your choice, you only made it because your parents teached you to like rock.

 

Thinking bigger, again. Your parents' consciousness are created by their brain, which are composed by matter, which are arranged the way they are because of the cosmic explosion, just like that vase broke because you kicked that ball.

 

Also, wouldn't that mean that, while i don't think humans would be capable of this, it is possible to predict the future? If we know how much force we kick something, and where we kick it, we can know exactly where it's going to go. Whatever object is, it's just matter. Just like our brain. So, while, of course, it's completely different, maybe we could predict people's actions, if we understood the way the matter that composes that person's brain is arranged and how they change.

[Strange]

That might make sense in a completely deterministic universe (and is a very old argument, for that reason).

 

But the universe is, at some level, inherently random. So you can't treat it as a giant clockwork machine.

 

Also, even in a deterministic universe, chaos theory limits how far ahead you can predict anything.

[Delta1212]

That might make sense in a completely deterministic universe (and is a very old argument, for that reason).

 

But the universe is, at some level, inherently random. So you can't treat it as a giant clockwork machine.

 

Also, even in a deterministic universe, chaos theory limits how far ahead you can predict anything.

Chaos theory presents a practical limit, rather than a theoretical one, though. In theory, you could still perfectly predict a deterministic, chaotic system given enough information. There is just less room for error, because any mistakes or missing information will result in a wildly different prediction rather than one that is just "almost right."

[swansont]

Chaos theory presents a practical limit, rather than a theoretical one, though. In theory, you could still perfectly predict a deterministic, chaotic system given enough information. There is just less room for error, because any mistakes or missing information will result in a wildly different prediction rather than one that is just "almost right."

 

Except there's a limit to information. You can't precisely know everything.

[Delta1212]

 

Except there's a limit to information. You can't precisely know everything.

 

In reality, no. But I was responding to the hypothetical of a purely deterministic universe. We just don't happen to live in one of those.

[Strange]

Chaos theory presents a practical limit, rather than a theoretical one, though. In theory, you could still perfectly predict a deterministic, chaotic system given enough information.

 

But as the universe is, at some level, probabilistic, that level of information is not available, even in principle.

[Delta1212]

 

But as the universe is, at some level, probabilistic, that level of information is not available, even in principle.

Yes, this universe is. Again, though, I was responding to your comment that it presents a limit even in a deterministic universe.

[imatfaal]

But what chaos theory showed, in very simple mathematics, was that no matter how much information you had you don't get to a point where answers are always predictable. No matter what your level of precision an arbitrarily small change in initial state can completely change the future state to an arbitrarily large extent.

 

These situations tend to crop up in iterated systems involving complex numbers - which is kinda what most of our physics is. With non-realisitc initial variables (ie 1 rather than 1.000...0000) then perhaps things could be predicted with a semblance of certainty - but in the datum universe there will always be a level of imprecision which will always lead to massive uncertainty in the answer. It seems a little facile to describe something as deterministic if we can also show that (in any circumstances which may apply) future outcomes can never be determined with precision.

 

Separately from the mathematical argument it should be remembered our universe exists because every so often in the totally boring and ultimately homogeneous energy soup there are spontaneous fluctuations.

[Delta1212]

But what chaos theory showed, in very simple mathematics, was that no matter how much information you had you don't get to a point where answers are always predictable. No matter what your level of precision an arbitrarily small change in initial state can completely change the future state to an arbitrarily large extent.

 

These situations tend to crop up in iterated systems involving complex numbers - which is kinda what most of our physics is. With non-realisitc initial variables (ie 1 rather than 1.000...0000) then perhaps things could be predicted with a semblance of certainty - but in the datum universe there will always be a level of imprecision which will always lead to massive uncertainty in the answer. It seems a little facile to describe something as deterministic if we can also show that (in any circumstances which may apply) future outcomes can never be determined with precision.

 

Separately from the mathematical argument it should be remembered our universe exists because every so often in the totally boring and ultimately homogeneous energy soup there are spontaneous fluctuations.

To be clear, again, I was taking issue with the premise of chaos theory saying that in a deterministic universe. If the universe is deterministic then, in principle, it should be possible to be arbitrarily precise in defining a given state. If there is imprecision "baked in" then there is an element of randomness and the universe is not deterministic. In a deterministic, each successive state would be wholly determined by the previous state of the universe.

 

 

Saying that chaos theory limits how far ahead you can predict anything even in a deterministic universe, is essentially saying that you can't obtain a precise enough measurement even in a universe in which measurements can be arbitrarily precise.

 

That obviously doesn't apply to this universe, but neither does the premise that we are talking about a deterministic universe apply. And of course, whether you could obtain an arbitrarily precise measurement even in a deterministic universe as a practical matter is another issue altogether, but I did already say that.

 

I do understand that chaos theory results in there being a limit on how far out certain predictions can be accurately made in this universe, but we were already presupposing that we weren't talking about this universe.

 

Edit: I guess my question is, can you have a fully deterministic universe without having precisely determined initial conditions?

Edited September 16, 2015 by Delta1212

[Strange]

Saying that chaos theory limits how far ahead you can predict anything even in a deterministic universe, is essentially saying that you can't obtain a precise enough measurement even in a universe in which measurements can be arbitrarily precise.

 

Not quite. It is similar to the idea of limits in mathematics. However precise your knowledge is, there is a limit to how far ahead you can predict. You can gather more information to see further ahead (with diminishing returns) but it is still limited. (Unless you are going to invoke a universe where it is possible to have an infinite amount of information...)

[imatfaal]

What strange said. And...

 

But you don't need arbitrary precision - because when you have precision there is always a level beyond your precision; you need exact figures. I can give you mathematical formula which describe trajectories exactly - and those can be used as input to a calculation which can be completely predictive. However if I give you data (no matter how precise) / or posit a realistic universe in which particle follow paths rather than routes of equations - you cannot have certainty in the output because there is sensitivity to initial conditions beyond your level of precision; whatever this level is.

[Delta1212]

 

Not quite. It is similar to the idea of limits in mathematics. However precise your knowledge is, there is a limit to how far ahead you can predict. You can gather more information to see further ahead (with diminishing returns) but it is still limited. (Unless you are going to invoke a universe where it is possible to have an infinite amount of information...)

I did think of that while typing up my post. Doesn't that presuppose a universe that requires an infinite amount of information to describe a single state of said universe, though?

 

You could, for instance, hypothesize a universe similar to a very large game of Life, where the initial conditions are perfectly defined and all successive iterations follow directly from the previous state. Especially on a very large board, any variation in that initial condition, potentially by even a single cell out of, hypothetically, trillions of cells, could result in very, very different outcomes.

 

But there is still an upper limit on how much information is required to perfectly predict the system out to infinity by running through the iterations in succession.