My theory on rings of Saturn

[hannumultanen]

I'm looking for a fatal error on my theory and any help will be appreciated.

 

So, I'm proposing that magnetic field of Saturn is important factor in creation and maintaining it's rings. For this to be possible I assume (actually: predict) that individual ring particles are fairly good electrical conductors. I also assume that Saturn's magnetic field is stable and has been for a long time (at least millions of years or so).

 

 

Let's take a look at a single ring particle orbiting around Saturn. The orbit is round, located on half way between Saturn's magnetic poles (which are co-axial with rotational axis). Now, if we travel with this particle, we can observe that there's no change on the magnetic field it experiences. Magnetic field stays exactly the same in both orientation and magnitude.

 

Then if we look at another ring particle, one that is a bit lost. This orbit is also perfectly round, but in an angle compared to the magnetic equator. If we travel with this particle, we do experience a change in magnetic field. Magnetic flux inside particle is stronger nearer the poles compared to the equator area. Therefore, if this particle is electrical conductor, eddy currnents are induced.

This is turn leads in to these two forces:

1) Drag. Eddy currents are not lossless. Particle looses energy so it's forced in to a lower orbit.

 

2) Accordning to Lenz's law, induced currents create force resisting the change in magnetic filed. This force will resist "climb" towards magnetic pole. It will again resist on the return back towards magnetic equator. To put it another way, these forces try bend orbit towards one that is paralllel with magnetic equator. Also, they force orbit to be round since oval orbit would again create eddy currents.

 

So, over time individual particles are continuously forced on to a round orbit, on to the half way between magnetic poles. This is where the rings are located.

 

 

So that's my theory in a nutshell.

 

 

 

I'm not a scientist ibut please assume I know the basics about magnetic fields, inducing currents etc.

 

I have also made a webpage about my theory: url deleted by mod (against the rules)

I will probably update it with further thoughts every now and then (until my theory is smashed for good).

[swansont]

Why is current physics insufficient to explain the behavior of the rings? Most (edit: outer) planets have them. Do they have similar magnetic fields?

 

The earth's magnetic field isn't stable — it reverses every so often, the poles wander, and the field strength fluctuates. Why would you assume that Saturn's would be stable?

[hannumultanen]

Why is current physics insufficient to explain the behavior of the rings? Most planets have them. Do they have similar magnetic fields?

 

The earth's magnetic field isn't stable — it reverses every so often, the poles wander, and the field strength fluctuates. Why would you assume that Saturn's would be stable?

I think Saturn's rings are quite unique, aren't they?. They are paper-thin (actually much thinner than paper), straight disks. I know some other planets have rings too but they are more like blurry clouds (like Saturns E-ring which I think is out of range of magnetic field).

I turn this question around: Why are only Saturn's ring's extremely flat and round? Shouldn't many planet's have flat rings if the mechanism is 100% gravity based?

 

Saturn's magnetic field is exactly lined with rotational axis. This doesn't feel like temporary, co-incidental state. Saturns magnetic field is unique among planets so mechanism I describe could only work in there.

[swansont]

I think Saturn's rings are quite unique, aren't they?. They are paper-thin (actually much thinner than paper), straight disks. I know some other planets have rings too but they are more like blurry clouds (like Saturns E-ring which I think is out of range of magnetic field).

I turn this question around: Why are only Saturn's ring's extremely flat and round? Shouldn't many planet's have flat rings if the mechanism is 100% gravity based?

 

Saturn's magnetic field is exactly lined with rotational axis. This doesn't feel like temporary, co-incidental state. Saturns magnetic field is unique among planets so mechanism I describe could only work in there.

 

Paper thin, if your paper is between 10 and 1000 m thick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rings_of_Saturn#Physical_characteristics

 

Do we really know a lot about the rings around other planets? They are more recently discovered and harder to see from earth.

[hannumultanen]

 

Paper thin, if your paper is between 10 and 1000 m thick.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rings_of_Saturn#Physical_characteristics

 

Do we really know a lot about the rings around other planets? They are more recently discovered and harder to see from earth.

Yes you are right. What I was meant to say was that rings are relatively thinner than paper.

 

The biggest thing bothering me has been why the Saturn's rings aren't "broken" during millions of years (by the tidal forces etc). C-ring and A-ring are 30000 km apart without any interaction and they are still perfectly aligned on all directions and angles.

My theory explains how the rings are constantly "repaired" by the magnetic field. This "repair"-work is not lossless and causes material to slowly move towards Saturn.

[Klaynos]

Relatively thinner than paper... I'm not sure that actually means anything.

 

What specific, numerical predictions died your idea make? Can you show how you've derived these predictions?

[hannumultanen]

Relatively thinner than paper... I'm not sure that actually means anything.

 

What specific, numerical predictions died your idea make? Can you show how you've derived these predictions?

Still had a problem with the paper part. Let's say Saturn's inner rings are relatively thinner than A4 paper..?

 

I can actually just point out that these eddy current forces can exist and work in the said way. Calculating their effects are way out of my scope. Calculating would also require knowledge about electrical conductivity of individual ring particles. I think this information isn't available.

edit:typo

Edited October 20, 2015 by hannumultanen

[swansont]

Still had a problem with the paper part. Let's say Saturn's inner rings are relatively thinner than A4 paper..?

 

I can actually just point out that these eddy current forces can exist and work in the said way. Calculating their effects are way out of my scope. Calculating would also require knowledge about electrical conductivity of individual ring particles. I think this information isn't available.

edit:typo

 

You could predict what kind of properties you need to make this work, and then argue about whether or not this is plausible.

[hannumultanen]

 

You could predict what kind of properties you need to make this work, and then argue about whether or not this is plausible.

Sorry I don't understand this sentence (english is not my first language). However, if we are still talkingl about the "paper-thin" -argument I'm ready to admit I was wrong from the beginning..

[swansont]

Sorry I don't understand this sentence (english is not my first language). However, if we are still talkingl about the "paper-thin" -argument I'm ready to admit I was wrong from the beginning..

No, I was talking about the electrical and magnetic properties required.

[Klaynos]

 

I can actually just point out that these eddy current forces can exist and work in the said way. Calculating their effects are way out of my scope. Calculating would also require knowledge about electrical conductivity of individual ring particles. I think this information isn't available.

edit:typo

Sorry, your said you had a theory but a wag which would imply a mathematical framework.

 

I think Swansont's suggestion of doing the maths to make predictions of the required properties would be a good approach.

[hannumultanen]

Sorry, your said you had a theory but a wag which would imply a mathematical framework.

 

I think Swansont's suggestion of doing the maths to make predictions of the required properties would be a good approach.

Yes "theory" might be a bit too fancy name for may idea. So I'll adjust my language according the public and call it "idea" from now on.

 

If somebody would like to have a go with this, very complex mathematical modelling would be required. Waaaay out of my skill+talent+knowledge set. I guess my problem is that the basic idea is very simple, layman type. But proving the idea right would be very complicated (maybe impossible). I was hoping somebody would prove it wrong, which would be easy if there's an obvious problem. I couldn't find one by myself.

 

 

In case somebody is interested about the actual idea, I will add this one more remark: Effects of eddy currents are in no way directly proportional to the mass of the ring particle. This might have been a contributing factor to the uneven distribution of particle sizes (and even shapes) across the rings.

I can't go further with this since I don't even know which force would be stronger, drag created by eddy currents or "opposing" force (the force opposing the change in the magnetic flux within the particle).

[hannumultanen]

I continue with further ideas:

The picture below shows two identical Saturn ring particles, "1" and "2". Their orbit is not exactly round and on level with magnetic equator, so eddy currents are created within the particles (we still assume they are electrical conductors).

There is no reason why center of forces created by eddy currents and the center of mass should be the same. So it usually isn't. Difference between these centerpoints forces particle to rotate 180 degrees two times on every round. This happens just after the northernmost and southernmost points of the orbit. So the particle 2 on the picture could actually be particle 1 returning towards magnetic equator, if viewed from opposite side of the planet.

 

This rotation of the individual particle leads to my next idea:

Sometimes there's a disturbance on Saturn's magnetic field. This could cause a situation, where group of ring particles are experiencing rapidly changing magnetical environment. So for example, group of particles which were "too much south" are suddenly "too much north" relatively to this disturbed magnetic equator. This group of particles would then experience forces rotating them 180 degrees around their axles.

I'm suggesting this is the cause of phenomenon known as "Saturn ring spokes".

 

 

[hannumultanen]

Wow, I stumbled in to a "sister" theory: Some russian thinks Saturn ring particles are superconductive and rings were created by something called "diamagnetic expulsion". http://file.scirp.org/Html/5-7501307_33586.htm

 

Even I still stand behind my own idea, his makes a lot of sense too (actually many things are described in a similar way of course since both forces lead to magnetic equator).

[hannumultanen]

So I was suggesting "Saturn ring spokes" would be caused by flipping particles. I made a drawing describing this idea and also possible method to prove it plausible or false.

If the ring particles are more or less flat (like I believe they are), the flipping would cause slight change in the brightness of a star viewed "through" a ring spoke. Most of the time star should be brighter.

I don't know if this kind of photos exist (went through some photos taken by Cassini and Voyager but couldn't find suitable).

 

[hannumultanen]

Since I'm suggesting Saturn ring particles are good electrical conductors, I feel obligated to try to guess what could cause this conductivity.

Ring particles are said to be almost 100% water ice. As far as I know this is based mostly on observations of the light reflecting from them (Cassini VIMS for example).

I think particles can't be good enough conductors if they are made from ice only.

 

So, my first suggestion is that Saturn ring particles are actually iron-nickel particles covered in frost.

This might sound a bit far-fetched but I'm just looking for a material that a) could be available and b) could explain why particles seek to the Saturn's equator.

 

Metals are very good electrical conductors at low temperatures. Iron is interesting since it's also magnetic material and can "collect" magnetic flux from larger area. Iron would probably produce the strongest eddy currents (and so create strongest forces).

 

These Iron particles could constantly collect and release frost, ice and water wapour.

 

I wonder if theres anything in current knowledge speaking against this "iron core" particle idea?

[ACG52]

This might sound a bit far-fetched but I'm just looking for a material that a) could be available and b) could explain why particles seek to the Saturn's equator.

All observations are that the rings are ice particles. No metals. Observation speaks against your idea. Edited November 14, 2015 by ACG52

[John Cuthber]

I'm looking for a fatal error on my theory and any help will be appreciated.

 

... For this to be possible I assume (actually: predict) that individual ring particles are fairly good electrical conductors.

They are not.

from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rings_of_Saturn

"The ring particles are made almost entirely of water ice, with a trace component of rocky material."

 

Ice is a very good insulator.

[hannumultanen]

All observations are that the rings are ice particles. No metals. Observation speaks against your idea.

I agree for the most part. I did find one trace of iron though: One of the leading theories is that reddish tint on the rings would be caused by tiny oxidised iron particles. This may not mean much but it would tell there's actually at least some iron on the rings.

 

They are not.

from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rings_of_Saturn

"The ring particles are made almost entirely of water ice, with a trace component of rocky material."

 

Ice is a very good insulator.

I agree for the most part.

However, this information is acquired with spectrometer. The "penetration" of this device is less than 10mm. So there could be another materials under a layer of ice. For example: maybe pieces of iron were once covered with water (surface tension) and then froze. This could have happened after a collision of two large objects, so the heat would have come from the collision.

I'm not sure if this is "probable" or even possible but I'm looking in to it.

 

 

[ACG52]

 

You seem to be making unsupported conjecture to bolster a tenuous unsupported hypothesis.

Edited November 15, 2015 by ACG52

[hannumultanen]

You seem to be making unsupported conjecture to bolster a tenuous unsupported hypothesis.

Insipired by this I divide my "theory" on to two parts and then try to evaluate how crazy they are.

 

A) The actual mechanism is quite simple combination of well known forces. Almost anyone can check if the geometry and direction of forces is what I claim them to be (please do and report the results). Calculations are not needed if we don't care about the strength of the forces, just the directions. So: "If Saturn ring particle is electrical conductor, eddy currents are created and forces will push particle towards round orbit on magnetic equator".

I'm saying this above is a fact. Sane scientist might say true at, let's say 80% probability.

 

B) Then another question is if ring particles are actually good enough electrical conductors. This might seem quite unlikely and it probably is. However, there is no direct information available on what the particles are made of, other than we know they are at least covered with ice. So sane scientist would probably still give some kind of odds to electrical conductivity, let's say 3%.

 

 

It should be quite easy to judge part "A" to the 0% or 100% probability. Part B is much more difficult, of course all steps towards 0% or 100% are appreciated.

 

If one thinks part A is a fact, it would be really silly not to turn every stone to solve B. If A is busted then it's easy to end speculation and forget both A and B.

[hannumultanen]

All observations are that the rings are ice particles. No metals. Observation speaks against your idea.

I just found this quite interesting webpage: http://elib.dlr.de/73063/

Scientists speculate (2010) that there might be traces of metallic iron on the surface of Iapetus and throughout the rings...

 

So my suggestion about ring particles containing iron might not be completely crazy. Iron is dark and if it's mostly covered with very bright ice/frost so it will be very difficult to detect visually (with spectrometer etc.). Of cource it's another question if there's enough iron for my "theory" to work. I think at least something like 5% iron in volume would be required. If rest would be frost and/or ice, iron would already make quite significant part of the mass.

 

By the way when I originally wrote "iron-nickel" it was just a hunch. I didn't have any knowledge that iron might have actually been detected on the rings. I just had couple of ideas and iron seemed most probable (or "least improbable"... compared to carbon fullerene structure for example...).

 

So, I will continue speculation until there's good pile of evidence against my idea.

Edited December 2, 2015 by hannumultanen

[ACG52]

I just found this quite interesting webpage: http://elib.dlr.de/73063/

Scientists speculate (2010) that there might be traces of metallic iron on the surface of Iapetus and throughout the rings...

 

So my suggestion about ring particles containing iron might not be completely crazy. Iron is dark and if it's mostly covered with very bright ice/frost so it will be very difficult to detect visually (with spectrometer etc.). Of cource it's another question if there's enough iron for my "theory" to work. I think at least something like 5% iron in volume would be required. If rest would be frost and/or ice, iron would already make quite significant part of the mass.

 

By the way when I originally wrote "iron-nickel" it was just a hunch. I didn't have any knowledge that iron might have actually been detected on the rings. I just had couple of ideas and iron seemed most probable (or "least improbable"... compared to carbon fullerene structure for example...).

 

So, I will continue speculation until there's good pile of evidence against my idea.

You would be better off accumulating evidence for your idea. Prove me wrong is the mantra of a crank.

[hannumultanen]

I previously thought mathematics involving this "eddy current" idea would be very difficult. But if the orbit of the conductive particle has only eccentrity (with zero inclination), mathematics seem actually quite doable.

 

So, let's pretend there's at least this one iron particle orbiting Saturn (see picture). Particle experiences vertical magnetic field with alternating flux density (randomly selected as 9-10 microtesla in this example). Eddy currents are therefore created within the particle. According to Lentz's law, there is a force created resisting this change in the magnetic field. I.e. this force will resist movement towards and away from the Saturn until the orbit is round.

 

It is possible to simulate eddy currents with "FEM" -software (one of them can be found at www.femm.info ). So for example: Eddy currents created in 10mm iron sphere by certain change in magnetic flux density.

All other numbers are already available or can be calculated.

 

Just a rough calculation will probably be sufficient to determine if these forces have any effect in real life (and if the effect can be observed in 2 weeks or in 200 million years).

 

These kind of calculations are beyond my own mathematical cababilities so I'll try to find somebody to help with this.