Caffiene vs Nitric Oxide

[iwant2know]

I'm interested in supplementing my fitness with L-Argenine (nitric oxide). I've done a little reading (Oh wow look...an uninformed lay person who has read "a little bit" on a topic) about how nitric oxide is a vasodilator, which lends to its effectiveness. What I wonder though is how effective NO is when there is presence of a vasoconstrictor, such as caffiene in the sysm. Does consuming caffiene inhibit nitric oxide's effectiveness?

[CharonY]

Uh, L-Arginine is an amino acid whereas nitric oxide is a gas. While one degradation pathway of arginine produces NO, the rate is not huge and I doubt that you can actually ingest sufficient arginine to significantly alter NO production (nor whether that is a good idea, considering that it is involved in a number of signaling cascades other than vasodilation).

[iwant2know]

Right, I do get that regarding NO==gas.

 

I'm not meaning inhibit whether or not it can inhibit NO production. I mean can coffee/tea/pop/etc... inhibit NO's vasodilation effects? This is even more of interest since I trust you when you say the rate of NO production is "not huge". Would the presence of a vasoconstrictor like caffiene prevent NO from it's vasodilation? Have there been any studies performed?

[Fuzzwood]

Do you also get that L-arginine is not a gas but a solid? Ergo, L-arginine is NOT nitric oxide, something which you do seem to believe.

[iwant2know]

Do you also get that L-arginine is not a gas but a solid? Ergo, L-arginine is NOT nitric oxide, something which you do seem to believe.

.....I'm not sure where you're getting that. Yes I know L-Arginine is not NO. At no point was that something I was trying to assert. Perhaps I worded it wrong. I'll own that. I'm a lay-person on this subject, which is why I came here. I'm not looking for snarky responses. Let's just be cool, okay?

 

Let me reiterate what I want to know:

What I am curious to know is how does the introduction of a vasoconstrictor like caffiene (standard household dosage from coffee) affect the vasodilation effect from nitric oxide.

[CharonY]

It is a matter of concentration. As I noted above, it is unlikely that you can ingest sufficient arginine so that it would have any effect on NO levels. The only effect that has been observed were in subjects that had coronary diseases, ischemia etc.

In healthy subjects there was no effect observed (see e.g. ). From what I understand there is no good reason for arginine as exercise supplement as NO production is induced by exercise-related stress and unless you have a deficiency, ingesting more would have little to no effect.

[iwant2know]

It is a matter of concentration. As I noted above, it is unlikely that you can ingest sufficient arginine so that it would have any effect on NO levels. The only effect that has been observed were in subjects that had coronary diseases, ischemia etc.

In healthy subjects there was no effect observed (see e.g. ). From what I understand there is no good reason for arginine as exercise supplement as NO production is induced by exercise-related stress and unless you have a deficiency, ingesting more would have little to no effect.

Interesting. That's the kind of information I'm seeking. Thank you for a straight forward answer (and citing sources!)

 

How about the effects of vasoconstrictors such as caffiene on exercise? I've read that the adrenal response from caffiene produces moderate performance enhancement during exercise (http://link.springer.com/article/10.2165%2F11536870-000000000-00000, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21411838). However are there any studies on how caffiene affects recovery after exercise?

 

Thanks again for the help!

[CharonY]

What precisely do you mean with recovery? I am only vaguely aware on studies looking at the effects of caffeine in a variety of exercise performances, though. One proposed effect was that it may alleviate the influence of low amounts of pain.

[iwant2know]

What precisely do you mean with recovery? I am only vaguely aware on studies looking at the effects of caffeine in a variety of exercise performances, though. One proposed effect was that it may alleviate the influence of low amounts of pain.

Sorry, poor wording again. One of the claims of sellers of L-arginine (and ultimately nitric oxide) is that it speeds up recovery time post-workout, thereby allowing you to workout more often. The claim the mechanism is the vasodilation. My question assumes the first is plausible/true (let's pretend it is for argument sake). The question is whether or not vasoconstriction from a drug like caffeine in any way limits recovery time after an intense workout. I hope that makes mose sense. Again sorry for improper wording. Laymen can be lame men sometimes.

[GM11]

Sorry, poor wording again. One of the claims of sellers of L-arginine (and ultimately nitric oxide) is that it speeds up recovery time post-workout, thereby allowing you to workout more often. The claim the mechanism is the vasodilation. My question assumes the first is plausible/true (let's pretend it is for argument sake). The question is whether or not vasoconstriction from a drug like caffeine in any way limits recovery time after an intense workout. I hope that makes mose sense. Again sorry for improper wording. Laymen can be lame men sometimes.

Ah I see what your trying to find out. In order to keep this short............... The claims are snake oil, as pointed out NO is only one pathway.

 

IF there was any benefit the breathing NO directly during exercise would be better, DO NOT TRY IT!! The most likely direct answer however to your question is YES, coffee would offset NO and cancel it out, IF there was a balance to begin with. In reality most (just about all) of the supplement will be excreted before it is metabolized anyway.

 

If you want a cheap exercise enhancing supplement try Aspirin (100mg) every other day, after making sure it is safe for YOU to do so

[Xalatan]

L-arginine is the substrate for nitric oxide synthase (NOS) to produce NO. So while arginine itself is not a gas (it is an amino acid), its enzymatic product is a gas, (plus citrulline). Not sure if there is a linear correlation between ingesting L-arginine and NO production in the muscle though - you may need to read up on whether exercise stress will stimulate iNOS or eNOS to use the dietary L-arginine available. Also, what goes through my mind when I read this is, you could try something like viagra with your workout?? Viagra boosts the NO effects and may give you robust vasodilation for your workout (if you don't mind the erection down low).

 

Second, Caffeine is not a straight forward vasoconstrictor - it's a methylxanthine, and while it will induce tachycardia and increase cardiac contractility, it also relaxes bronchial smooth muscles to cause bronchodilation, as well as diuresis and psychostimulation. The pharmacological basis of caffeine is that it is a phosphodiesterase inhibitor, so it will raise cAMP levels systemically. In beta-1 areas it will cause cardiac contraction, but in beta-2 regions it will induce smooth muscle relaxation.

 

You may need to find a purer vasoconstrictor to test it out with L-arginine. Maybe a serotonin agonist...

In terms of speeding up recovery, in theory nitric oxide may vasodilate the muscles, which may help to clear out the lactate buildup post work out. However, again, the NOS enzymes would have to increase their NO output to make use of the extra arginine in the body.